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TenderIsOurMight

Member Since: May 22, 2007
Last Login: November 22, 2008
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Posted in: Tests, Treatments & Side Effects + Hormonal Therapy - Before, During and After, Created: An hour ago

Femara after Tamoxifen

OsteoporosisConnection.comFosamax, Actonel, Boniva: Why Might a Patient Be Prescribed One Oral Bisphosphonate Over Another?

by  Neil Gonter, MD 
Wednesday, March 28, 2007

As you may be aware, there are currently 3 FDA approved therapies for osteoporosis.  I will try to give you the important differences in the drugs in order to allow you to make an educated decision on therapy.

 

Long-Term Experience:

 

The first drug approved was Fosamax, which was followed a few years later by Actonel and most recently by Boniva.  The long-term experience with these drugs is important, as we have always had the concern that they might stop working.  This can be by causing “frozen bone”, which may result in an increased risk of fractures.  However, this has not been seen yet.  In a New England Journal of Medicine study published in 2004, sustained improvement in bone density after 10 years of Fosamax was depicted.

 

How they are taken:

 

Fosamax and Actonel are weekly medications, while Boniva is monthly in oral form and every three months in intravenous (IV).  The technique for taking these oral drugs are similar.  One needs to take them first thing in the morning, while sitting or standing, without food for 30 minutes after Fosamax and Actonel and 1 hour after Boniva.  Taking a medication only once a month may sound appealing, however, this should not necessarily be the only factor that one should take into account when choosing a medication.  If on the other hand, one can not remember a weekly medication or can not tolerate any oral bisphosphonate, then monthly or IV Boniva, may be for them.

 

Clinical Studies:     

 

All three drugs show significant increases in bone density at vertebral as well as non-vertebral areas.  The graphs of the results of these drugs all seem similar, however, there are differences between them.

 

In the only head-to-head trial, the FACT trial (Fosamax Actonel Comparison Trial), both medications showed significant increases in mineralization and reduction in markers of bone turnover (possible sign of decreased bone loss), with the changes with Fosamax greater than with Actonel.  However, this must be placed into context.  It should be clearly understood that these small differences might not really translate into what is really important: any decrease in fractures.  In the Boniva trial, it took 2 years to show any fracture decrease and in most of the Fosamax trials, it took at least as long to show a decrease in fractures, while Actonel was able to show fracture reduction in its first year.

 

All three drugs have FDA approval for the treatment and prevention of post-menopausal osteoporosis.  Actonel has approval to reduce fractures at vertebral and nonvertebral sites (hip, wrist, pelvis, clavicle, leg, humorous), Fosamax at vertebral and hip, while Boniva has approval for the spine only.

 

Conclusion:

 

The choice of agents is a difficult question to answer due to the inability to compare the different agents across the different clinical trials.  Unless two drugs are studied head-to-head in a randomized, double-blind clinical trial, the comparison of one product to another is very limited.  There are many variables in the clinical trials that make direct comparisons of them problematic.  These differences include age of the study participants, difference in the baseline BMD at the different sites and the history of previous fractures.  All of these may affect the outcome of the trials.

 

Disclaimer: The author is on the speaker’s bureau for P & G Pharmaceuticals as well as Roche/Glaxo Smith Kline, the makers of Actonel and Boniva, respectively

 

Note: I believe the patent on Fosomax ended Feb, 2008, allowing Barr and Teva Pharmaceuticals to offer generic versions. 

It cannot be emphasized too strongly that treatment of each patient is a highly individualized matter. (FDA-approved labeling for warfarin (Coumadin) NDA 9-218/5-105)
Posted in: Recovery, Renewal, & Hope + Prayers and Spiritual Inspiration, Created: 2 hours ago

Wishes for Slonedeb


Wishing you a good Saturday, with some fun mixed in during the day. Maybe a granddaughter's visit, a new movie, a different dinner plan. Such small changes of pace keep us moving forward.
 
Prayers for you,
Tender 
It cannot be emphasized too strongly that treatment of each patient is a highly individualized matter. (FDA-approved labeling for warfarin (Coumadin) NDA 9-218/5-105)
Posted in: Connecting With Others Who Have a Similar Diagnosis + Recurrence and Metastatic Disease, Created: 2 hours ago

Ladies Please Help Me,I feel Like it's crunch time..

 
I've thought of you often, Zar, over the months. Prayers for further healing and for your family.
Tender 
It cannot be emphasized too strongly that treatment of each patient is a highly individualized matter. (FDA-approved labeling for warfarin (Coumadin) NDA 9-218/5-105)
Posted in: Not Diagnosed but Concerned + Waiting for Test Results, Created: Nov 20, 2008 08:38 pm

tumor markers


The upper limit of normal for serum CA 27-29 is 37 U/ml (the minority say 40 U/ml). 
 
While oncologists recognize a slight upward deviation during or at conclusion of chemotherapy, I have seen no specific upper limit numbers. It's the fall to at or below the normal range that is looked for on followup blood work.
 
NancyD, you ask a good question about rads and Ca 27-29. I don't have any knowledge on this question or answer.
 
When a blood test is performed on an automated machine, in batches, there can be variation between the batches in small numbers. Similarly, there can be variation in one's own blood samples drawn three months apart or so. I don't know what it suggests when blood levels are rising, but still below 37U/ml. This is because I understand in general it takes two elevations above 37U/ml for the value to be considered truly elevated (in case the the first was a fluke or error) such that more concern is generated.
 
Many oncologists don't do serum markers for these reasons, and as yet, ASCO guidelines do not recommend them. Some oncologists do believe they give one an early heads up, so earlier intervention when imaging confirms may be considered.
 
Tender 
 
It cannot be emphasized too strongly that treatment of each patient is a highly individualized matter. (FDA-approved labeling for warfarin (Coumadin) NDA 9-218/5-105)
Posted in: Not Diagnosed but Concerned + Not Diagnosed but Worried, Created: Nov 20, 2008 07:21 pm

MRI questions

Caeryn,

I wish I could say it didn't matter about the first MRI findings and recommendation for a biopsy, but I can't. Imo, the second MRI doesn't cancel out the first MRI findings completely. I'd recommend a third contrast MRI to break the tie (or another test specifically addressing the first's findings, maybe a scintimammogram), but ideally a third contrast MRI keeps it the same technical imaging manner. 

No imaging study is 100% accurate. Given this, is the second MRI more or less accurate than the first? Do you see what I mean? A nodular enhancement with ill-defined borders for which biopsy is recommended has to be taken very seriously. It can't be dismissed by a followup where it isn't seen, as perhaps the followup is less sensitive than the first.

 Do you feel a lump in the area of concern? What prompted the first MRI? Why did the second MRI even get ordered? Surely, hormonal changes influence MRI's and fibrocystic events occur, but now you've got a formal radiologist recommendation for a breast biopsy. That's hard to overrule, when our goal is to detect breast cancer early, as well as to rule in benign findings. 

 Well, I'm no expert, but this is a mathematical dilemma in some regards needing the third arm of the triangle possibly. Further detailed discussion, contemplation and consideration of biopsy is what I would push for. Best to have a false positive benign finding than delay and be dealing with a true finding. Do not dispair here, as in general, 80% of breast biopsies are negative should you go that route. I'm hoping yours will be too, and/or that some peace of mind may be given to you.

Tender 

It cannot be emphasized too strongly that treatment of each patient is a highly individualized matter. (FDA-approved labeling for warfarin (Coumadin) NDA 9-218/5-105)
Posted in: Not Diagnosed but Concerned + Not Diagnosed but Worried, Created: Nov 20, 2008 06:49 pm

Strange leakage, really concerned


Well, of course it's your doctors who need to be leading the work up here. I can only give what limited knowledge I have based on my experience. 
 
To answer your question about 3 children (congratulations!) and breast-feeding all of them (double congratulations) and subsequent bilateral colostrum-like leakage, it's not that uncommon, yet simple tests may point to it's reasons. Time to cessation of breast feeding, stimulation of nipples all favor this occurrence. But too, checking for an elevated prolactin is reasonable, as this will give bilateral discharge as you describe. Meds can elevate prolactin (even the birth control in a small minority amongst other meds) as well as a small pituitary growth called a prolactinoma. This is check for by blood prolactin elevation, and if elevated an imaging of the pituitary gland (behind and up from your nasal area in the brain).
 
Another simple test to run is a nipple discharge "cytology" test. Some of the discharge is collected, smeared onto a slide, and sent off to the pathologist to look at under the microscope. Kind of like a modern day ductal lavage collection without the lavage.
 
It sounds like a breast surgeon's input may help. All in all though, nothing you've say you have sets off loud alarm bells, more like common conditions as source for nipple discharge.
 
Hope this helps,
Tender
Sorry about the light color, and now, my letter font is shrinking! Oh well.... 
It cannot be emphasized too strongly that treatment of each patient is a highly individualized matter. (FDA-approved labeling for warfarin (Coumadin) NDA 9-218/5-105)
Posted in: Not Diagnosed but Concerned + Not Diagnosed but Worried, Created: Nov 20, 2008 05:53 pm

Strange leakage, really concerned


Many years ago I had a greenish-gray nipple leakage and presented to a well known breast surgeon. Having seen him before for my "lumpy" breasts, he became a little professorial and said (paraphrasing) "young lady, this green-gray leakage is a consequence of fibrocystic disease. Here, let me show you it is not blood, by checking on a quiac card (results negative for blood). I only become concerned when it's bloody". So off I went with my tail tucked between my legs.
 
However, I did later develop clear nipple leakage on the side of my breast cancer. It would come out when I bent over, just a little, never painful or solicited. Simultaneously I felt the lump.
 
The moral of my story is all breast nipple discharge needs to be evaluated and if recurrent, again evaluated. But, apparently green-gray leakage is seen by operating breast surgeons as present in benign fibrocystic breasts. The point is to not walk away with your tail tucked like I did, thinking I was a dunce for asking.

Later, when I found the lump, it never was "bloody" nipple discharge that had evolved; rather, just innocuous plain clear discharge. I wonder what my original surgeon would have said to that.
 
Good luck and let us know how it turns out.
Tender 
It cannot be emphasized too strongly that treatment of each patient is a highly individualized matter. (FDA-approved labeling for warfarin (Coumadin) NDA 9-218/5-105)
Posted in: Recovery, Renewal, & Hope + Prayers and Spiritual Inspiration, Created: Nov 20, 2008 04:23 pm

Wishes for Slonedeb

 
Good wishes for you tonight, Deb, as dusk falls. It's right that you have a place to spill out your frustrations as well as your joys, like your granddaughter and DH and friends here.
 
Great to see you post, Deb. May you have a peaceful evening,
Tender 
It cannot be emphasized too strongly that treatment of each patient is a highly individualized matter. (FDA-approved labeling for warfarin (Coumadin) NDA 9-218/5-105)
Posted in: Not Diagnosed but Concerned + High Risk Women, Created: Nov 20, 2008 09:21 am

Estring = what to do?


Only you can decide the answer to this serious question. QOL issues are very important.
 
Estring can raise the blood estrogen values some. In the one study I read on vaginal estrogen use, a curious finding occurred. While almost all patient's blood estrogen values went up from vaginal estrogen use initially, over the next weeks some participants values stayed up (not good), while others dropped lower again (more ?manageable). In other words, there was no clear pattern while on the vaginal estrogen. But medical providers should at least tell it like it is: all vaginal estrogen, especially women with thinned vaginal tissue whose blood vessels are therefore close to the surface, give a rise in blood estrogen.
 
Your situation, not having bc, is different from one who does have bc. Very personal decision. One might say, well, what are your genetic testing results? BRCA1 and 2 genes presence is associated with an increase risk of bc, and can be tested at a genetic center with informed consent. Given your family history, it appears you may qualify (high family incidence bc) for the studies.
 
Yet, just of late, it seems a high breast cancer family history and negative BRCA genes doesn't dismiss a high lifetime risk of bc over those individuals without family history. Recent writings last week or so emphasized the risk for for high risk family members persist: some feel more genes will be revealed down the road.
 
Should you be BRCA positive, counseling about your risk of bc would then follow, as well as ovarian cancer. An involved discussion of estrogen use when BRCA + would also seem wise.
 
Here I've given you more questions than answers, but all with the intent of assisting.
 
Keep searching your heart and mind, and good luck to you,
Tender 
It cannot be emphasized too strongly that treatment of each patient is a highly individualized matter. (FDA-approved labeling for warfarin (Coumadin) NDA 9-218/5-105)
Posted in: Connecting With Others Who Have a Similar Diagnosis + IDC (Invasive Ductal Carcinoma), Created: Nov 19, 2008 08:36 pm

Venting: freaked out about post-tx mammo results


It is appalling, isn't it that dense breasts in and of themselves don't disqualify a woman or man from having a mammogram, and move them right on to an MRI?
 
Why do a test if it's results depend on no haze to see a mass, micro-calcifications clearly?
 
I am sorry for anyone who fell into this hole. And once the problem of dense breasts is identified, I encourage all to push for other testing. Screening ultrasound is not proving as great as had hoped, but few can dismiss the views offered by MRI's, with the caveat of more false positives (something there which turns out on biopsy not to be cancer).
 
Tender 
It cannot be emphasized too strongly that treatment of each patient is a highly individualized matter. (FDA-approved labeling for warfarin (Coumadin) NDA 9-218/5-105)
Posted in: Not Diagnosed but Concerned + Waiting for Test Results, Created: Nov 19, 2008 08:30 pm

Oldie, but waiting again


Sending positive thoughts your way, Sheri. 
 
Tender 
It cannot be emphasized too strongly that treatment of each patient is a highly individualized matter. (FDA-approved labeling for warfarin (Coumadin) NDA 9-218/5-105)
Posted in: Connecting With Others Who Have a Similar Diagnosis + Triple Negative, Created: Nov 19, 2008 08:29 pm

Triple Negs - Fall 2008 Update


Wondering how Flalady (Debbie) is doing this week? Smile 
 
Wish to let you know I think of you a lot, and hope for much more concrete triple negative news coming soon from the San Antonio Breast Conference in a few weeks. 
 
Best wishes to all of you,
Tender 
It cannot be emphasized too strongly that treatment of each patient is a highly individualized matter. (FDA-approved labeling for warfarin (Coumadin) NDA 9-218/5-105)
Posted in: Recovery, Renewal, & Hope + Prayers and Spiritual Inspiration, Created: Nov 19, 2008 08:20 pm

Wishes for Slonedeb


You're so very welcome, Deb. You continue to be a friend I think of each day, and as to the thread, well it's a wonderful tribute to you and the other ladies. 
 
Six down to two: that's more manageable anyway. Especially at Christmas time, and if you already had your first snow, you might just have a White Christmas. Time to get those old lovely movies and watch them, right?
 
Sorry your bothered by the swelling and joint pain. If you can lay on your left side, it sometimes helps the heart and circulation to work better to lessen the swelling. Keep flexing your joints if you can, and some pain med to help you do so. 
 
Good night, dear Deb.
Tender 
It cannot be emphasized too strongly that treatment of each patient is a highly individualized matter. (FDA-approved labeling for warfarin (Coumadin) NDA 9-218/5-105)
Posted in: Tests, Treatments & Side Effects + Hormonal Therapy - Before, During and After, Created: Nov 19, 2008 08:12 pm

Prozac interfering with Tamoxifen?


Yes, it might be wise to forego the Prozac if your CYP2D6 test revealed poor metabolizer status. Tamoxifen needs to be broken down into "metabolites" for it to work, and at least one of the major metabolites appears to be inhibited by Prozac in a serious way. If you stay with the same family of drugs (called the Serotonin Re-uptake Inhibitors) or similar SRNI's, Effexor seems to be held least in dispute, but I note this has not be fully explained or disclaimed.
 
Other anti-depressants you might consider are the older, yet very effective class called the tricyclics (Amitriptyline, Elavil), and less commonly used, MAO inhibitors (monoamine oxidase inhibitors). Each have differing SE's, which of course you wish to fully be aware of by review with your physician.
 
I do advocate for caution on using Tamoxifen with the SSRI's. While this entire issue has not been fully vetted (to put it politically) why risk the chance that someday it falls on the side of not doing, when there are other drugs, particularly if you know you are a poor metabolizer. I hope your doctor will review this in full with you.
 
One other choice would be to ask your Gyn to consider a laparoscopic removal of your ovaries sooner than later. This would allow you to consider the aromatase inhibitors (AI's). In experienced surgical hands, laparoscopic ovarian removal is less invasive and is a nice, quicker recovery alternative to major surgery.
 
My best to you in a challenging situation.
Tender 
It cannot be emphasized too strongly that treatment of each patient is a highly individualized matter. (FDA-approved labeling for warfarin (Coumadin) NDA 9-218/5-105)
Posted in: Not Diagnosed but Concerned + Waiting for Test Results, Created: Nov 19, 2008 07:48 pm

Home Free?


You've been through a lot, Sharon, so naturally you wonder if this time is it. But don't spook yourself. I've never heard of inflammatory bc smoldering in ovaries. It's not unusual, once burned, to worry you'll be burned again, so your point is fully understandable.
 
As to the pancreas and liver, I take it the lesions are cysts. There is an inheritable syndrome of cysts of the kidney, liver, and I believe with some pancreas. I know because my mom had it, and her mom. They both lived to old years.
 
Ovarian masses are treated like you're having them, namely taken out. While not perfect, a well done ultrasound with Doppler of the ovary by a skilled and knowledgeable tech/radiologist team often get a good feel ahead of time, as has been suggested to you. Is your Ca-125 normal? The surgery for a TAHBSO (uterus, tubes and ovaries) is pretty straight forward, and while the gynonc is there, he'll probably take a look at your liver lesions. My recovery wasn't overly distressing (had the smile incision), helped by good pain meds the first few days. 
 
I'm sorry you're going through this. You truly have had you're fair share. Hopefully, your gyn can move straight ahead without giving you more time to look back.
 
Take care,
Tender 
It cannot be emphasized too strongly that treatment of each patient is a highly individualized matter. (FDA-approved labeling for warfarin (Coumadin) NDA 9-218/5-105)
Posted in: Recovery, Renewal, & Hope + Prayers and Spiritual Inspiration, Created: Nov 19, 2008 06:47 pm

Wishes for Slonedeb


Is your heat turned on yet, Deb? It's getting cold, like winter here. Kentucky must be a good bit warmer than Virginia, but maybe you're in the hill area. Do you like soups? Soups, chili and stew surely do warm us during these colder days. 

I hope you're doing ok. Be careful not to be near a sick grandchild since you had chemo last week. But this is hard to do, yes, since you love them so, and you have six of them.
 
Evening prayers for you. Be well,
Tender 
It cannot be emphasized too strongly that treatment of each patient is a highly individualized matter. (FDA-approved labeling for warfarin (Coumadin) NDA 9-218/5-105)
Posted in: Connecting With Others Who Have a Similar Diagnosis + Triple Negative, Created: Nov 19, 2008 06:42 pm

I think I have a problem


It doesn't surprise me one bit you took your own sutures out, Annie. You obviously have a can do attitude, one that serves you well.
 
I'm late for the wine and cheese party today but would love to bring some Jarlsburg and Leyden (dutch cheese with cumin seeds) and small rye breads.
 
Lots of hugs and thoughts for you,
Tender 
It cannot be emphasized too strongly that treatment of each patient is a highly individualized matter. (FDA-approved labeling for warfarin (Coumadin) NDA 9-218/5-105)
Posted in: Connecting With Others Who Have a Similar Diagnosis + Triple Negative, Created: Nov 18, 2008 05:00 pm

I think I have a problem

 
So very sorry, Annie.
Tender 
It cannot be emphasized too strongly that treatment of each patient is a highly individualized matter. (FDA-approved labeling for warfarin (Coumadin) NDA 9-218/5-105)
Posted in: Tests, Treatments & Side Effects + Hormonal Therapy - Before, During and After, Created: Nov 18, 2008 10:44 am

AI's and joint imflamation


Artsee,
 
I have found exercise involving proper stretching and treadmill walking, and when truly troubled with the joint/bone/muscle pain from the AI, a short course of (buffered) aspirin, maybe 2 to 3 days at 325 mg twice daily. Remarkably, the aspirin breaks the pain cycle each time, bringing it down to a much more tolerable level. I am always amazed.
 
We are however all different. Perhaps I just respond real well to aspirin. Alas, I do get some gastritis from just this low amount and bruising, so I only do it when I can't stand the pain anymore.
 
Tender 
It cannot be emphasized too strongly that treatment of each patient is a highly individualized matter. (FDA-approved labeling for warfarin (Coumadin) NDA 9-218/5-105)
Posted in: Recovery, Renewal, & Hope + Prayers and Spiritual Inspiration, Created: Nov 17, 2008 08:14 pm

Wishes for Slonedeb


Nighttime has now fallen, my day is largely done except for resting and reading now. I need to work on communication with my teens, as there are rocks in our path now which I don't wish to see replaced by boulders. A parent's love is always present, and there is no bright line in the sand often for us to see on limits and their objections to them. So I'm humbled once again in this parenting job, Deb.
 
I hope your day was without pain, and the chemotherapy hasn't made you nauseated, or your stomach hurt. How nice of your DH to care for you so, and you for him. Someone to cherish and hang on to in life; a special gift, truly, human caring.
 
Prayers at the end of my day for you, Deb, and all,
Tender 
It cannot be emphasized too strongly that treatment of each patient is a highly individualized matter. (FDA-approved labeling for warfarin (Coumadin) NDA 9-218/5-105)

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