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Topic: VITAMIN K2 combined with Vitamin D3 IMPROVES bone density

Forum: Bone Health and Bone Loss —

Talk with others about bone density, osteopenia and osteoporosis, and ways to keep your bones strong

Posted on: Dec 24, 2015 10:16PM - edited Oct 31, 2019 10:16AM by macb04

macb04 wrote:

Something I never see mentioned, which was never mentioned to me even when I saw an orthopedic specialist after breaking my foot, was that Vitamin K2 deficiency along with Vitamin D3 deficiency increases the risk of fractures.

Just look at the following research about it. Vitamin K2 works SYNERGISTICICALLY with Vitamin D3 to move Calcium out of blood vessels and soft tissue spaces into bones. Without enough Vitamin K2 it is very hard to get the Calcium into your bones. Not only that, but Vitamin K2 is important in lowering risks of Atherosclerosis and Coronary Heart Disease. This should be a major health article, but you don't hear a word about it. Guess it might cut into the pricey, revenue generating big bucks the pharmaceutical industry gets with the Bisphosphonates

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14529146

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/509074_4

http://www.lifeextension.com/magazine/2008/3/Protecting-Bone-And-Arterial-Health-With-Vitamin-K2/Page-01

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00223-012-9571-z

http://smilinsuepubs.com/vitamin-k2-inhibits-deadly-breast-cancer-growth/

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2012/05/16/vitamins-d-and-k2-reduce-osteoporosis.aspx

http://jeffreydachmd.com/2014/10/vitamin-k/

Vitamin K2 is not the same as Vitamin K 1, which is involved in blood clotting. There are a number of studies out of Japan where it is used in combination with Vitamin D3 for prevention and treatment of osteoporosis/osteomalacia. The research is using MK 4 and MK 7 types of Vitamin K2. MK4 is found in animal products like Gouda, Edam and Brie Cheeses. MK 7 is found in Natto, a weird Japanese food made from fermented Soy beans.

No Vitamin K2 supplements unless approved by your doctor if taking Blood Thinners.

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Dec 24, 2015 10:45PM - edited Dec 24, 2015 10:53PM by ChiSandy

Mercola.com? Lifeextension.com? Springer.com? smilinsuepubs? Show me links to respected medical journals with controlled double-blind studies. Otherwise, forget it. Even the ncbi article uses words like "suggested," "surmised," and "mild" osteopenia. No results--just theories of how the two vites MAY be synergistic. If there was anything to this, don't you think the pharmaceutical industry would be racing to bring combos of K2, D3 and calc. citrate to market--especially since as supplements, these micronutrients are unregulated and could be marketed at a fraction of the expense of bisphosphonates and biologics?

Yes, Big Pharma is profit-driven (though not nearly as venal a set of bastards as the insurance/third-party-provider industry). But without it, we wouldn't have aspirin, acetaminophen, antibiotics, sophisticated anesthetics, affordable synthesized insulin, metformin, hypertension meds, antihistamines, cromolyn, leukotriene inhibitors (ask any asthmatic what life would be like without the latter two--i.e, having bronchodilators & steroids their only option), etc. If herbs, plants, and foods were the key, wouldn't we have conquered a host of diseases long before the advent of commercially patented drugs?

Diagnosed at 64 on routine annual mammo, no lump. OncotypeDX 16. I cried because I had no shoes...but then again, I won’t get blisters.... Dx 9/9/2015, IDC, Right, 1cm, Stage IA, Grade 2, 0/4 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2- (IHC) Surgery 9/23/2015 Lumpectomy: Right Radiation Therapy 11/2/2015 3DCRT: Breast Hormonal Therapy 12/31/2015 Femara (letrozole)
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Dec 25, 2015 01:29AM - edited Dec 25, 2015 01:41AM by macb04

Did you even look at the studies mentioned on Medscape? Medscape is a site that is used by commonly used by most Doctors and ARNP/PA's in the United States. What do you find wrong with Medscape? It is well known as a provider of continuing medical education for healthcare providers. It is a reputable site and lists placebo controlled double blind studies for most of its research articles, I listed it because it would show that the information is valid for the skeptics. The Medscape article recaps several of the research studies that were done that are placebo controlled showing the benefits of Vitamin K2 in combination with Vitamin D3. People only need to look it up for themselves.

Vitamin K2 is not as easily available in the diet, it is not as easy to acquire from foods as Vitamin K 1. It is found in organ meats/dairy/egg yolks, but only in small amounts. Only a very small amount of Vitamin K1 is converted by the body into K2.

You may not like the Rotterdam Study because it is not placebo controlled, but it is still an excellent piece of research http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15514282

Have a happy holiday.


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Dec 25, 2015 01:34AM Italychick wrote:

I take D3 and K2, and at my bone scan had no sign of any arthritis or bone issues in my entire body, and I am 53 years old. My vitamin D level was one of the few separate tests that my strictly by the book, standard of care, oncologist ordered and when she found out mine was 86 she was ecstatic. She continued to test me all through chemo and now during Herceptin. The right level of vitamin d is important for breast health, in my opinion.

Macb04 I agree with you, for what it's worth.

Lumpectomy 1/27/15, TCH chemo, Finished chemo 5/27/15, rest of treatments 2/17/16 Dx IDC
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Dec 25, 2015 02:03AM - edited Dec 25, 2015 02:04AM by ChiSandy

This Post was deleted by ChiSandy.
Diagnosed at 64 on routine annual mammo, no lump. OncotypeDX 16. I cried because I had no shoes...but then again, I won’t get blisters.... Dx 9/9/2015, IDC, Right, 1cm, Stage IA, Grade 2, 0/4 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2- (IHC) Surgery 9/23/2015 Lumpectomy: Right Radiation Therapy 11/2/2015 3DCRT: Breast Hormonal Therapy 12/31/2015 Femara (letrozole)
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Dec 25, 2015 02:08AM Italychick wrote:

http://www.jcancer.org/v01p0101.htm

http://news.wustl.edu/news/Pages/22523.aspx

http://updates.pain-topics.org/2011/09/vitamin-d-r...

D3, K2 and calcium, in my opinion, function synergistically. I lowered my calcium level into the 9.xx level by taking K2, then I added D3 when my calcium level got to the right range. My doctor says I have the best kidney function he has ever seen, so the supplementation has not hurt my kidney function at all. But I believe it is important to have calcium level at the right spot for everything to work together synergistically.

My two cents for the day



Lumpectomy 1/27/15, TCH chemo, Finished chemo 5/27/15, rest of treatments 2/17/16 Dx IDC
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Dec 25, 2015 02:15AM ChiSandy wrote:

Anecdotal evidence, suppositions and theories are just that. Research based on them may raise interesting questions but is not probative of anything and treatment decisions (other than those in an ensuing clinical trial) ought not be based on them. That’s why I don’t give great weight to anecdotal studies. I know that in light of drug side effects (and also for those whose disease no longer responds to drugs), the temptation is strong to grasp at anything, however tenuous, that might feel less onerous or offer up something new. But if I want to be experimental, I’ll join a trial.

Diagnosed at 64 on routine annual mammo, no lump. OncotypeDX 16. I cried because I had no shoes...but then again, I won’t get blisters.... Dx 9/9/2015, IDC, Right, 1cm, Stage IA, Grade 2, 0/4 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2- (IHC) Surgery 9/23/2015 Lumpectomy: Right Radiation Therapy 11/2/2015 3DCRT: Breast Hormonal Therapy 12/31/2015 Femara (letrozole)
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Dec 25, 2015 02:21AM Italychick wrote:

Everybody is entitled to their opinions. But for my n=1 experiment, I will stick with what works for me, which is D3, K2 supplementation and keeping calcium in the 9.xx range.


Lumpectomy 1/27/15, TCH chemo, Finished chemo 5/27/15, rest of treatments 2/17/16 Dx IDC
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Dec 25, 2015 02:42PM macb04 wrote:

I agree with Italychick, everybody is entitled to their opinions. I still haven't seen that they even read the placebo controlled studies from Medscape. They have chosen to ignore the information from Medscape. So I guess we should encourage open minds, thorough research by each individual into the questions posed by the studies that have been done. I say let each person make up their own minds.

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Dec 26, 2015 02:04PM ceanna wrote:

italychick, I am interested that you lowered your calcium levels with K2, My calcium level is often slightly high and I take Vit. D. How much K2 did you take and for how long?

Also, just want to agree with macb04 and italychick that opinions may disagree, but it is often the anecdotal evidence that leads to peer reviewed research and those results being published. As we know, much "research" in highly respected peer review research can be proven wrong too, so I like to read the anecdotal evidence and see where there are possibilities.

BTW, ChiSandy, Springer.com is an online delivery system for respected medical journals and such. Much of the literature available there is peer reviewed primary research as is the case with the article cited by macb04 and should not be dismissed so easily.

Dx 2014, IDC, 0/4 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2- Radiation Therapy Multi-catheter Surgery Lumpectomy: Right
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Dec 26, 2015 02:28PM Italychick wrote:

ceanna I take K2 continuously with my D3 supplement. The way I lower my calcium is I take K2 only for a week or two, then I add the D3 back in. I do 15 mg. of mk4 and 100 mcg of mk7. No supplemental calcium and I take between 500-1,000 mg of magnesium to help get excess calcium out of my system. If you take magnesium and get diarrhea, just back off until you hit the sweet spot. Magnesium requirements can vary. For example, when I exercise and sweat a lot, I need more. When it is cold and I don't sweat as much, I need less. I lowered my calcium from 10.5 to 9.5 this way. As I have said before, I'm an n=1 sample, but it seems to work for me. I got concerned about high calcium levels because I have a friend going through treatment for metastatic melanoma, and he ended up in the hospital on IV fluids because his calcium level got so high he was puking and couldn't eat, and it was his calcium level that was the issue. Once they got it regulated, his nausea and puking went away.

I also found the following links to be of interest.

http://health.ucsd.edu/news/releases/Pages/2014-03...

http://ar.iiarjournals.org/content/34/3/1163.full

I also saw a few links saying D3 supplementation helped women stay on aromatase inhibitors longer because it lessened bone pain and allowed them to continue taking the aromatase inhibitors.

Best of luck!


Lumpectomy 1/27/15, TCH chemo, Finished chemo 5/27/15, rest of treatments 2/17/16 Dx IDC
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Dec 27, 2015 02:36AM macb04 wrote:

Hi all, I also use Magnesium in a spray form because I have Irritable Bowel Syndrome and get diarrhea easily if I take any Magnesium (Mg) by mouth. I figured out I was Magnesium deficient after I got chemo because I would be awoken out of sleep with my foot going into an insanely tight painful cramp. My big toe would be pointing up toward my knee. I would have to get out if bed and stand on my foot with my other foot until the cramp passed. I used to think I was Potassium deficient, until I read somewhere about Magnesium deficiency being the culprit in cramping problems commonly caused by medications, and also hard to get enough in your diet. I used the Mg Chloride spray and all the cramping pain subsided. I think that I also sleep better with the MgCl spray being used before bed. I think that Mg is essential in balance with Vit D and Vitamin K2, just like Italychick says. It helps with a whole variety of problems, from Migraines, Hypertension and Type II Diabetes, to heart attacks and heart palpitations. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11251702

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16542786

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evolutionary-psychiatry/201106/magnesium-and-the-brain-the-original-chill-pill

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15855585

http://m.emj.bmj.com/content/19/4/288.full

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23853635

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17536123

Really important article to read by Pharmacist Suzy Cohen which lists medications which deplete Magnesium

http://www.jigsawhealth.com/blog/drug-muggers-suzy-cohen-magnesium


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Dec 27, 2015 04:44AM marijen wrote:

Macb04, About how many milligrams of magnesium a day do you use? I also get bad foot cramps

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Dec 27, 2015 04:47AM marijen wrote:

Italychick, I have been taking 4000 d3 since 2012 and it definitely has lowered my bone pain

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Dec 27, 2015 12:10PM Italychick wrote:

marijen good to hear. I read that it helps, glad to know somebody actually feels it does. What doctors don't tell us!

Lumpectomy 1/27/15, TCH chemo, Finished chemo 5/27/15, rest of treatments 2/17/16 Dx IDC
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Dec 27, 2015 02:30PM ceanna wrote:

italychick, thanks for the info about K2. I'm not sure what you are referring to with the mk4 and mk7, but I haven't yet read any of the links you provided. To clarify, do you mean that you did not take Vit. D initially, only K2, or do you mean you take days/weeks off periodically from taking Vit. D and daily take the K2? My calcium levels are usually just over 10, not enough to worry the endocrinologist, but enough that I have the very early stage of osteopenia now that I am in my early 60s.

I do already take magnesium and have had no diarrhea problems when I take chelated magnesium by Solgar. The chelation part provides some digestive enzymes or something so no digestive problems. I, too, used to get those insanely painful toe raising cramps!!! Especially when I went low-low carb for awhile.

I currently take one 5000 unit capsule of Vit, D3 per day but will increase by a couple more pills per week during the winter months only. I get enough natural sunshine Vit. D. in the summer and have been able to keep my levels around 60.

Dx 2014, IDC, 0/4 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2- Radiation Therapy Multi-catheter Surgery Lumpectomy: Right
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Dec 27, 2015 04:00PM - edited Dec 27, 2015 04:02PM by macb04

Hi Marijen, I just looked at the Magnesium spray, it is also called Magnesium Oil/Magnesium Chloride Brine.It doesn't say, but somewhere else lists it having 18mg/spray of Magnesium. I use 4 to 5 sprays per day.

. CEANNA, Vitamin K2 consists of several forms, MK4 to MK 10. Most bioactive forms of Vitamin K2 are MK 4 and MK 7. MK 4 is found in animal products and MK7 is from fermentation of bacteria, such as Natttohttp://www.uspharmacist.com/content/d/in-service/c/32018/ Look at this link, which is from Pharmacist "real"publication. This explains the differences pretty well. Then look back at the links I put at the beginning of this post.

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Dec 27, 2015 04:56PM marijen wrote:

I've been using Ultra Vitamin K with Advanced K2 Complex. Vitamin K activity from 2400mcg. Mk7 100mcg. 1300mcg MK4, and Vitamin K 1000 mcg. Vitacost. Can be found at Vitacost or Amazon. Same price.

macb04, thanks on the Magnesium, I'm only taking a pill form 257 MG once a day, I should probably up it. Or check on the spray.

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Dec 27, 2015 05:30PM ChiSandy wrote:

I used to get those foot cramps EVERY night--the first time I saw my big toe extremely dorsiflexed it scared the shit out of me. I take 400mg. of magnesium (NatureMade) at bedtime, and haven’t had that problem since. No digestive effects, either.

Diagnosed at 64 on routine annual mammo, no lump. OncotypeDX 16. I cried because I had no shoes...but then again, I won’t get blisters.... Dx 9/9/2015, IDC, Right, 1cm, Stage IA, Grade 2, 0/4 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2- (IHC) Surgery 9/23/2015 Lumpectomy: Right Radiation Therapy 11/2/2015 3DCRT: Breast Hormonal Therapy 12/31/2015 Femara (letrozole)
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Dec 27, 2015 08:14PM Italychick wrote:

ceanna I took only the K2 supplements for a few weeks to get my calcium to drop, and now I take K2 and D3 all the time. I monitor my D3 level every three months to make sure it is where it is supposed to be and I adjust what I take accordingly.

chiSandy, for me, magnesium is like a wonder substance

Lumpectomy 1/27/15, TCH chemo, Finished chemo 5/27/15, rest of treatments 2/17/16 Dx IDC
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Jan 3, 2016 12:28PM new2bc wrote:

Which brand of K2 do you use?

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Jan 3, 2016 06:57PM Noranurse wrote:

Thanks for the information. I am 58 and have significant osteoporosis. I take Vitamin D3 4000units and Magnesium but not Vitamin K2. I will be reading the links that have been provided.

Thanks

Dx 12/18/2015, IDC, Left, 1cm, Grade 1, ER+/PR+, HER2- Surgery Lumpectomy: Left; Lymph node removal: Sentinel Radiation Therapy Whole-breast: Breast Hormonal Therapy
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Jan 3, 2016 07:24PM Italychick wrote:

If I could only afford one, I would just take the Comolementary Prescription one, first picture



Lumpectomy 1/27/15, TCH chemo, Finished chemo 5/27/15, rest of treatments 2/17/16 Dx IDC
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Jan 8, 2016 11:14PM ceanna wrote:

I started taking Vit. K2 for about a week and now the last few days my blood pressure has been very high. It's usually pretty even keeled (I have a doctor ordered home bp monitor), but, but now the diastolic number (the bottom) has gone up 20 points!!! I don't think anything else has changed to cause this. Anyone experience this after the addition of K2?? Or know why?

Dx 2014, IDC, 0/4 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2- Radiation Therapy Multi-catheter Surgery Lumpectomy: Right
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Jan 8, 2016 11:39PM - edited Jan 8, 2016 11:40PM by marijen

My bp is great, maybe it's your monitor.

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Jan 9, 2016 12:31AM Italychick wrote:

My blood pressure is great, 117/73, and I've been taking K2 for years. What did your bottom number go to

Lumpectomy 1/27/15, TCH chemo, Finished chemo 5/27/15, rest of treatments 2/17/16 Dx IDC
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Jan 9, 2016 06:11PM zogo wrote:

suersis, The beneficial vitamin is "K2" not vitamin "K" which interacts with coumadin levels. Although, you should take a lower dose than others.

I read this book and it gives details.

http://doctorkatend.com/vitamin-k2-and-the-calcium-paradox-table-of-contents/

~Jane~ "Most obstacles melt away when we make up our minds to walk boldly through them" ......"You'll never know how strong you are until being strong is your only option"
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Jan 9, 2016 07:36PM ceanna wrote:

Thanks for the additional info. I've been taking only 45 mcg. per day but tried skipping a day and my bp was down--not as low as usual, but down. I'm going to stop taking it for now and have interlibrary loaned a copy of the book zogo recommended. Maybe it will shed some light!! italychick--my lower number approached 100. Not good!!!

Dx 2014, IDC, 0/4 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2- Radiation Therapy Multi-catheter Surgery Lumpectomy: Right
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Jan 10, 2016 02:56AM new2bc wrote:

I take super K vitamin that contains: Vitamin K1 (1500mcg)

Vitamin K2 (as menaquinone-4) 1000mcg

Vitamin K2 (as menaquinone-7) 200mcg ONCE A DAY

But Ultra K2 that italychick mentioned contains 15000 mcg of vitamin k and it is recommended to take 3 times a day. Do I take enough of this vitamin to help my bones? I Take 600 mg calcium, 5000 units D3, and 250mg magnesium. Any suggestions if I need to switch to another brand of Vitamin k2? I had hysterectomy plus ooph last month so I really need help with my bones because prior to surgery, I had osteopenia.

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Jan 10, 2016 12:44PM Italychick wrote:

new2bc is the product you are taking the Life Extension brand? You might need a bit more mk4, more magnesium, and research boron. The reason I do higher magnesium is because it helps get stuff out of areas where it doesn't belong. Just be aware that some forms can cause diarrhea so monitor and play around with the form of magnesium until you find the one that works for you. Magnesium oxide gives me diarrhea, but magnesium glycinate and threonate work for me. Everybody is different in what works and what doesn't. The supplement you are taking is a good one, just may not be enough. I believe our bodies make mk4, so it is more in line with what we do naturally. I get my vitamin d level tested every three months and adjust accordingly. It's a pretty simple blood test. One way to ensure the things you are taking are in proper ratios is to find a naturopath if you can to help. Supplements are so complicated, and some are contraindicated in certain autoimmune or inflammatory conditions. Like magnesium is not a good supplement for people with myasthenia gravis from what I hear.

Sorry there are no easy answers. What works for one doesn't always work for another person. I, for example, take higher magnesium because I ride my bike a lot and I sweat out my minerals. When it is hotter, I need more mineral supplementation. When it is colder and I don't sweat as much, I need less

Lumpectomy 1/27/15, TCH chemo, Finished chemo 5/27/15, rest of treatments 2/17/16 Dx IDC
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Jan 10, 2016 02:09PM new2bc wrote:

italychick,

Thank you for explaining in detail. Yes, the product is the life extension brand. It looks like I don't need vitamin K1 included in this vitamin anyway since it promotes clotting which will make matters worse since I am taking Tamoxifen. I need to find another brand that has MK4 and boron. Has anyone found such a product or boron has to be taken separately? If so, what brand of boron and how many mg? Is 15 mg of MK4 enough to take the pill one time instead of 3 times a day? While I was researching I found out that eating prunes every day also helps the bones. Thanks for any input from anyone that has more info regarding this.

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