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Topic: VITAMIN K2 combined with Vitamin D3 IMPROVES bone density

Forum: Bone Health and Bone Loss — Talk with others about bone density, osteopenia and osteoporosis, and ways to keep your bones strong

Posted on: Dec 24, 2015 10:16PM - edited Dec 24, 2015 10:35PM by macb04

macb04 wrote:

Something I never see mentioned, which was never mentioned to me even when I saw an orthopedic specialist after breaking my foot, was that Vitamin K2 deficiency along with Vitamin D3 deficiency increases the risk of fractures.

Just look at the following research about it. Vitamin K2 works SYNERGISTICICALLY with Vitamin D3 to move Calcium out of blood vessels and soft tissue spaces into bones. Without enough Vitamin K2 it is very hard to get the Calcium into your bones. Not only that, but Vitamin K2 is important in lowering risks of Atherosclerosis and Coronary Heart Disease. This should be a major health article, but you don't hear a word about it. Guess it might cut into the pricey, revenue generating big bucks the pharmaceutical industry gets with the Bisphosphonates

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14529146

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/509074_4

http://www.lifeextension.com/magazine/2008/3/Protecting-Bone-And-Arterial-Health-With-Vitamin-K2/Page-01

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00223-012-9571-z

http://smilinsuepubs.com/vitamin-k2-inhibits-deadly-breast-cancer-growth/

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2012/05/16/vitamins-d-and-k2-reduce-osteoporosis.aspx

http://jeffreydachmd.com/2014/10/vitamin-k/

Vitamin K2 is not the same as Vitamin K 1, which is involved in blood clotting. There are a number of studies out of Japan where it is used in combination with Vitamin D3 for prevention and treatment of osteoporosis/osteomalacia. The research is using MK 4 and MK 7 types of Vitamin K2. MK4 is found in animal products like Gouda, Edam and Brie Cheeses. MK 7 is found in Natto, a weird Japanese food made from fermented Soy beans.

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Sep 9, 2017 11:42PM macb04 wrote:

bump

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Sep 11, 2017 09:09PM - edited Sep 11, 2017 09:10PM by 53nancy

Since my cancer diagnosis, I have upped my supplements by consulting with a Pharmacist I trust, i.e., Vitamin D3, calcium, magnesium, multi, probiotics and taking the highest amount available. Because I had an episode last year with iron deficient anemia, my doctor has triple my iron supplement. My oxygen, iron, kidney function, liver function have good values. I have switched to an alkaline diet - no carbs, no sugars, healthy fruits and vegetables, etc. Walking as much as possible, and have lost five pounds. Using essential oils on my feet. So far it's making feel better and more positive about handling this diagnosis.

Surgery 7/17/2017 Lumpectomy: Right; Lymph node removal: Right, Sentinel Dx 8/16/2017, DCIS/IDC, Right, 1cm, Grade 3, ER-/PR-, HER2- (IHC) Dx 10/12/2017, DCIS/IDC, Right, 1cm, Stage IA, Grade 3, 0/3 nodes, ER-/PR-, HER2- (IHC)
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Sep 11, 2017 09:20PM zogo wrote:

That's great for taking control of diet and supplements, 53Nancy!

If you are taking calcium, it is good you are taking D3, but also ESSENTIAL you take K2. It will help the calcium deposit in your bones rather than your arteries.

~Jane~ "Most obstacles melt away when we make up our minds to walk boldly through them" ......"You'll never know how strong you are until being strong is your only option"
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Sep 11, 2017 09:48PM macb04 wrote:

That's so true, Vitamin K2 is essental for making sure the Calcium winds up in your bones, not your blood vessels. Calcium supplementation without Vitamin K2 causes increased risks of Coronary Artery Disease, the number #1 killer of women.


Science News

from research organizations

Benefits of calcium supplements may be outweighed by cardiovascular risks
Date:
May 12, 2016
Source:
The Norwegian University of Science and Technology (NTNU)
Summary:
Taking calcium and vitamin D can help prevent broken bones in older women. However, this benefit may be cancelled out by an increased risk of heart attack and stroke, say researchers.
Share:

FULL STORY

Taking calcium and vitamin D can help prevent broken bones in older women. However, this benefit may be cancelled out by an increased risk of heart attack and stroke.

With the highest reported risk of hip fractures in the word, Norway has good reason to consider the benefits and risks of calcium supplements. The challenge is that too little calcium and vitamin D in your diet leads to an increased risk of osteoporosis and broken bones, which taking supplements has been shown to help prevent.

However, some studies have also shown that taking supplemental calcium may also increase your risk of heart attack and stroke.

"We conclude that the moderate effect of supplemental calcium and vitamin D on the risk of fractures is not large enough to outweigh the potential increased risk of cardiovascular disease, specifically in women who are at a low risk of bone fracture," said Gunhild Hagen, a PhD candidate at the Norwegian University of Science and Technology's (NTNU) Department of Public Heath and General Practice who was first author of an article recently published in Osteoporosis International.

Analytical model of health effects

Researchers at NTNU and the University of Oslo used an advanced analytical model to investigate the total health effect of taking a combined calcium and vitamin D supplement, compared to taking no supplements, based on a group of healthy women aged 65 with a BMI of 24 kg/m2.

"Our analysis shows that if 100,000 65-year-old women take 1000 mg calcium every day, 5890 hip fractures and 3820 other fractures would be prevented. On the other hand, as many as 5917 heart attacks and 4373 strokes could be caused. So for women of this age, the risks outweigh the benefits," the authors of the study wrote in an article in Aftenposten, one of Norway's national newspapers.

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Sep 26, 2017 06:18PM Michelle49 wrote:

I find this thread really helpful. I had a recent bone density test and my oncologist is now concerned that I've rapidly developed osteoporosis. I eat plenty of beans and veggies but not dairy. I walk a lot on the job and exercise often. I'm already on Vit D3 (2000) but not on Vit K2. I take Calcium/Mag/Zinc supplements but was very wary about taking a full dose so because I read somewhere that calcium supplementation is modestly effective. Now I'm second guessing myself my onco reiterated that I take 1200 mg Calcium. He also wants me to start Zometa infusions! I still have 2.5 years to go for Letrozole and I'm postmenopausal so my osteoporosis is most likely to get worse. But upon reading this thread, I'm glad to see that some of you have been able to find a "fix".

Dx 9/11/2014, IDC, 1cm, Grade 2, 1/2 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2- Surgery 10/9/2014 Lumpectomy: Left; Lymph node removal: Left, Sentinel Chemotherapy 11/24/2014 Cytoxan (cyclophosphamide), Taxotere (docetaxel) Radiation Therapy Whole-breast: Breast Hormonal Therapy Femara (letrozole)
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Sep 26, 2017 07:05PM Artista928 wrote:

Well dang. My pcp just told me stop the vit K2. I take Tamoxifen that can cause blood clots, and so can vit K2. I have osteopenia and she's going to speak with my MO about putting me on a med for it, forgot the name.

Dx'd at 50. Doing it all, all by myself. Stopped Letrozole after 5 weeks. Debilitating se's. Back on Tamox now. Dx 6/2/2015, IDC, Left, 6cm+, Stage IIIA, Grade 3, 1/4 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2- (DUAL) Surgery 8/6/2015 Lymph node removal: Left, Sentinel; Mastectomy: Left; Prophylactic mastectomy: Right; Reconstruction (left): Tissue expander placement; Reconstruction (right): Tissue expander placement Chemotherapy 11/3/2015 AC + T (Taxotere) Radiation Therapy 5/2/2016 Whole-breast: Breast, Lymph nodes, Chest wall Hormonal Therapy 6/28/2016 Tamoxifen pills (Nolvadex, Apo-Tamox, Tamofen, Tamone) Surgery 12/9/2016 Reconstruction (left): Silicone implant; Reconstruction (right): Silicone implant Hormonal Therapy 2/14/2017 Femara (letrozole) Hormonal Therapy 3/26/2017 Tamoxifen pills (Nolvadex, Apo-Tamox, Tamofen, Tamone) Surgery 9/1/2017 Reconstruction (right): Fat grafting, Silicone implant
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Sep 27, 2017 12:04AM macb04 wrote:

Hi Michelle, sorry to hear your bones are having issues, but that is par for the course with all AI's. Definitely look into having an increased amount of Vitamin K2, either through food or by supplements, to balance out your Vitamin D3. Why such low Vitamin D3 doses? What is your Vitamin D3 blood levels? It is recommended to have a range of 40 to 80ng/mL, depending on the study quoted. I don't think that 2,000IU of Vitamin D3 will give you sufficient blood levels. My oncologist tested me and said I should be on 5,000IU per day.

D

Endocrine Society Says Vitamin D Deficiency May Be Common in U.S.

By Daniel J. DeNoon

Listen

FROM THE WEBMD ARCHIVES

June 6, 2011 -- Noting that vitamin D deficiency is "very common in all age groups," new treatment guidelines call for many Americans to take more vitamin D than is currently recommended.

The guidelines, from the Endocrine Society, offer some contradictory advice. They say that virtually everyone in the U.S. should be taking vitamin D supplements, but that only those at risk for vitamin D deficiencyshould have their vitamin D blood levels checked.

Only those whose serum 25(OH)D blood levels are above 30 ng/mL are getting enough vitamin D. Lower levels are "insufficient," and those with levels below 20 ng/mL are frankly deficient.

But much higher levels are better, says guideline committee chairman Michael F. Holick, MD, PhD, director of the vitamin D skin and bone research lab at Boston University.

"The committee decided that 30 ng/mL is the minimum level, and recommended 40 to 60 ng/mL for both children and adults," Holick said at an online news conference

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Sep 27, 2017 09:30PM Michelle49 wrote:

Yes I had my Vit D level tested but I don't remember the exact numbers. I will call and find out. Looking closely, besides the 2000 iu pill, there's 1000 iu in the multivitamin I take. I'm going to make an appointment with a naturopath so I can get a better clue on the optimal doses I can take considering my background. Since I'm already on supplements, does it make sense to get blood tests done related to bone health and density? What tests do you think are helpful?

My multivitamin has 80 mcg of Vit K but it doesn't specify what kind. I've been vegan since my initial diagnosis so it's a challenge to get the Vit K2 from food. I do eat lots of beans, spinach, other greens. I decided today I'm going to start eating an egg a day. I do eat salmon occasionally; add more sardines/herring.

Dx 9/11/2014, IDC, 1cm, Grade 2, 1/2 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2- Surgery 10/9/2014 Lumpectomy: Left; Lymph node removal: Left, Sentinel Chemotherapy 11/24/2014 Cytoxan (cyclophosphamide), Taxotere (docetaxel) Radiation Therapy Whole-breast: Breast Hormonal Therapy Femara (letrozole)
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Sep 27, 2017 10:33PM macb04 wrote:

Well, there aren't really blood tests that test bone health, other than Vitamin D (25 OH-D) and Undercarboxylated Osteocalcin (ucOC) which is a test that correlates with Vitamin K2 intake. Your Naturopath can help get you those tests, or try Genova, which is on the link. A good, somewhat odd Vegetarian sourced Vitamin K2 rich food is the Japanese Fermented Soybean food called Natto.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC288157/

GENOVA Diagnostics is a lab that does these tests, not always common in mainstream labs like Quest or LabCorp, although there could be other labs that do this test also.

https://www.gdx.net/product/vitamin-k-test-serum

Serum undercarboxylated osteocalcin is a marker of the risk of hip fracture in elderly women.

P Szulc, M C Chapuy, P J Meunier, and P D DelmasAuthor information ► Copyright and License information ►See commentary "Vitamin K nutrition and postmenopausal osteoporosis." on page 1268.

This article has been cited by other articles in PMC.

Abstract

It has been previously shown that the level of circulating undercarboxylated osteocalcin (ucOC) is elevated in elderly women in comparison with young, healthy, premenopausal ones. To understand the mechanism of the increase in the ucOC in the elderly and to assess its potential consequences on bone fragility, we have measured ucOC in the sera of 195 elderly institutionalized women 70-101 yr of age. In 45 women (23%) serum ucOC was above the upper limit of the normal range for young women. The level of ucOC was negatively correlated with 25OHD (r = -0.32, P < 0.001) even after excluding the effect of age, parathyroid hormone (PTH), and creatinine by partial correlation (r = -0.24, P < 0.002). During an 18-mo follow-up, 15 women sustained a hip fracture and their baseline ucOC level was higher (P < 0.01) in women who subsequently sustained hip fracture than in the nonfracture group contrasting with no significant differences for serum calcium, phosphate, alkaline phosphatase, creatinine, PTH, 250HD, and total and carboxylated OC. The risk of hip fracture was increased in women with elevated ucOC (relative ratio 5.9, 99.9% Cl 1.5-22.7, P < 0.001). During 1 yr of calcium/vitamin D2 treatment, ucOC decreased (P < 0.05), especially in those with the initially increased values (from 2.22 +/- 0.35 to 1.41 +/- 0.29 ng/ml, P <0.005) contrasting with an increase in the placebo group (P < 0.05). In conclusion, the increase in ucOC in the elderly reflects not only some degree of vitamin K deficiency but also their poor vitamin D status, suggesting that vitamin D may be important, either directly or indirectly through its effect on bone turnover, for achieving a normal gamma-carboxylation of OC. The ucOC, but not conventional calcium metabolism parameters, predicts the subsequent risk of hip fracture, suggesting that serum ucOC reflects some changes in bone matrix associated with increased fragility.


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Oct 14, 2017 01:14AM macb04 wrote:

Bump

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Oct 21, 2017 08:09PM Michelle49 wrote:

My Vit D 25-OH level is currently 52.8 ng/ml (reference rate 30-60 ng/ml) so that's good news. I started Vit K2 500 mcg (MK-4 400, MK-7 100 mcg) . I finally got to see a naturopath and she says the Vit K dose is adequate. I joined a gym and started on resistive exercises based on a study about exercise effects on osteoporosis and even got a weighted vest (10 lbs) to wear around the house and when on elliptical machine. She did emphasize taking calcium supplements in small doses spread throughout as >500 mg taken at one time increases calcium too much at a time and that's when it gets deposited in other places of the body other than the bone. She also added strontium citrate.

I also read a study on eating lots of dried prunes which increased bone density. I figured that based on my background I have increased risk of developing osteoporosis anyway. My body build is small especially in the upper half so I think my bones have not been getting much weight bearing through the years. I also didn't grow up drinking dairy and eating cheese and meat. I tan easily and since living in the northwest in the past 19 years did not help with Vit D levels.


Dx 9/11/2014, IDC, 1cm, Grade 2, 1/2 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2- Surgery 10/9/2014 Lumpectomy: Left; Lymph node removal: Left, Sentinel Chemotherapy 11/24/2014 Cytoxan (cyclophosphamide), Taxotere (docetaxel) Radiation Therapy Whole-breast: Breast Hormonal Therapy Femara (letrozole)
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Oct 22, 2017 03:47PM macb04 wrote:

That sounds really good Michelle. I forget occasionally, but am taking Vitamin D3 10,000IU every other day. Last year when I checked my level of Vitamin D it was only 36, and my Naturopath wants my levels up to 70ng/m, because of the bc history. I also am taking the Vitamin K2 every day, although I forget the dose at the minute. I also get weight bearing exercise 5 to 6 days per week walking my dog up and down the hills in the wooded trails near my house.

Where in Washington do you live? I live in Seattle.


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Oct 22, 2017 04:20PM Michelle49 wrote:

I live at the north end of Tacoma! Great to know you're close. It's been a blessing in disguise that now I really have to exercise. I hate it but I literally feel benefits immediately. I have less joint pains and have more energy. I dread the winter coming up. It's going to get harder to step out of the house.

Dx 9/11/2014, IDC, 1cm, Grade 2, 1/2 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2- Surgery 10/9/2014 Lumpectomy: Left; Lymph node removal: Left, Sentinel Chemotherapy 11/24/2014 Cytoxan (cyclophosphamide), Taxotere (docetaxel) Radiation Therapy Whole-breast: Breast Hormonal Therapy Femara (letrozole)
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Oct 22, 2017 07:14PM SajeScents wrote:

Michelle49

May I ask you which brands of calcium, K2, and strontium citrate you use? Thanks for the tip about taking calcium supplements in smaller amounts throughout the day for better distribution of calcium to bones. I have bought some Vitamin K off the shelf at a drug store, along with off-the-shelf calcium citrate supplements with D3 and just started using them, so not sure they are doing the job. Next bone mineral density is in August (I had one in August and was borderline osteoporotic). I do have a Vit D 25-OH coming up this month. I am also on Prolia x2 per annum.

Thanks,

Dx 12/7/2016, ILC/IDC, Both breasts, 4cm, Stage IIB, Grade 3, 1/8 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2+ Surgery 12/12/2016 Lumpectomy: Left, Right; Lymph node removal: Left, Right, Sentinel Chemotherapy 1/23/2017 Cytoxan (cyclophosphamide), Taxotere (docetaxel) Radiation Therapy 6/5/2017 3DCRT: Breast, Lymph nodes Targeted Therapy Herceptin (trastuzumab) Hormonal Therapy Arimidex (anastrozole)
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Oct 22, 2017 08:20PM Michelle49 wrote:

SajeScents,

I take the Calcium/Magnesium/Zinc by Solaray, Vegan K2 500mcg by Country Life which I got from Marlene's a local natural health food store and the Strontium Pure Encapsulations which I got from naturopath's office. I'm planning on shopping online for the latter two for better pricing. She said to skip a calcium dose and substitute strontium because they compete for absorption. I asked her if she's seen cases when the osteoporosis was reversed. She said yes up to 10-12% reduction, more so with osteopenia. I wanted a BMD done after six months but she said it's too soon; a year is adequate.

Exercise study:

https://universityhealthnews.com/daily/bones-joint...

Prune studies

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/british-jo...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26902092




Dx 9/11/2014, IDC, 1cm, Grade 2, 1/2 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2- Surgery 10/9/2014 Lumpectomy: Left; Lymph node removal: Left, Sentinel Chemotherapy 11/24/2014 Cytoxan (cyclophosphamide), Taxotere (docetaxel) Radiation Therapy Whole-breast: Breast Hormonal Therapy Femara (letrozole)
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Oct 23, 2017 02:56PM SajeScents wrote:

Thank you, Michelle. That's very helpful!


Dx 12/7/2016, ILC/IDC, Both breasts, 4cm, Stage IIB, Grade 3, 1/8 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2+ Surgery 12/12/2016 Lumpectomy: Left, Right; Lymph node removal: Left, Right, Sentinel Chemotherapy 1/23/2017 Cytoxan (cyclophosphamide), Taxotere (docetaxel) Radiation Therapy 6/5/2017 3DCRT: Breast, Lymph nodes Targeted Therapy Herceptin (trastuzumab) Hormonal Therapy Arimidex (anastrozole)
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Nov 5, 2017 03:29AM SajeScents wrote:

I am crazy confused right now. I was just reading in another cancer forum (Canadian) that cancer likes calcium to grow, and consequently we should avoid ingesting too much calcium. However, I have osteopenia already, am on AI daily, had one injection of Prolia (rx'd twice per year) and was advised by my MO to take Vit D3 and increase my intake of calcium and calcium-rich foods. It looks like a no-win situation if it is true that calcium grows cancer, or is that just a myth? I am taking Vitamin K2 supposedly to help distribute the calcium to bone and not to soft tissue. I also like Gouda and Brie cheese for the same reason.

What's the real truth on calcium ingestion and cancer growth??? Thanks in advance.

Dx 12/7/2016, ILC/IDC, Both breasts, 4cm, Stage IIB, Grade 3, 1/8 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2+ Surgery 12/12/2016 Lumpectomy: Left, Right; Lymph node removal: Left, Right, Sentinel Chemotherapy 1/23/2017 Cytoxan (cyclophosphamide), Taxotere (docetaxel) Radiation Therapy 6/5/2017 3DCRT: Breast, Lymph nodes Targeted Therapy Herceptin (trastuzumab) Hormonal Therapy Arimidex (anastrozole)
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Nov 5, 2017 12:21PM - edited Nov 5, 2017 01:01PM by marijen

From Wikipedia

  1. 22]
CalciumEdit

Some studies have found a relationship between calcium intake and lowered breast cancer risk.

  • In the Nurse's Health Study, a high dietary intake of calcium showed 33% lower risk of breast cancer.[23]
  • Cancer Prevention Study II Nutrition Cohort Concluded 20% lower risk of breast cancer with 1250 mg of calcium intake.[24]
  • Women's Health Study shows an inverse association between total calcium intake and premenopausal breast cancer risk.[25]
  • Another two studies, one in France[26] and another in Finland,[27] showed significant inverse relation between calcium intake and breast cancer.
Hypotheses
  • Calcium reduces cell proliferation and induces differentiation in mammary glands.
  • High calcium intake decreases fat-induced epithelial hypoproliferation of mammary gland and chemically induced carcinogenesis.
  • Breast density is positively associated with breast cancer. Dietary calcium intake reduces the breast density.
  • High calcium intake is associated with a reduced risk of benign proliferative epithelial disorders which are thought to be precursors of breast cancer.
Vitamin DEdit

Main article: Vitamin D § Role in cancer prevention and recovery

Vitamin D is related to reduced risk of breast cancer and disease prognosis. A 2011 study done at the University of Rochester Medical Center found that low vitamin D levels among women with breast cancer correlate with more aggressive tumors and poorer prognosis. The study associated sub-optimal vitamin D levels with poor scores on every major biological marker that helps physicians predict a patient's breast cancer outcome. The lead researcher stated, "Based on these results, doctors should strongly consider monitoring vitamin D levels among breast cancer patients and correcting them as needed."[28]

Hypotheses
  • Vitamin D metabolites (25 (OH) D, 1, 25 (OH) 2 D) promote cellular differentiation and it is important for chemoprevention.
  • Low circulating levels of 25 (OH) D in adolescence may be an important predisposing factor for breast cancer risk in later life.
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Nov 5, 2017 06:33PM SajeScents wrote:

Wow! Marijen, thank you very much for taking the time and sharing your research! This helps a lot!

Dx 12/7/2016, ILC/IDC, Both breasts, 4cm, Stage IIB, Grade 3, 1/8 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2+ Surgery 12/12/2016 Lumpectomy: Left, Right; Lymph node removal: Left, Right, Sentinel Chemotherapy 1/23/2017 Cytoxan (cyclophosphamide), Taxotere (docetaxel) Radiation Therapy 6/5/2017 3DCRT: Breast, Lymph nodes Targeted Therapy Herceptin (trastuzumab) Hormonal Therapy Arimidex (anastrozole)
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Nov 7, 2017 11:22PM macb04 wrote:

I don't worry too much about my Calcium intake. I have yogurt several times per week, and a little bit of milk every day in my tea. I never take Calcium Supplements, since it is shown to increase risks of Coronary Artery Disease. When you look at the low incidence of Osteoporosis in Japan, and the fact they have a very low amount of Calcium in their diet, Calcium, by itself, is not as crucial to bone health as it used to be assumed. Vitamin K2 is important for bone health, and without sufficient K2, it is harder for the Calcium to get into the bones.

Lower calcium intake in Japan, with 400-500 mg/day mainly as soybean products, small fish with bones, and vegetables.

  • Osteoporosis in Japan: factors contributing to the low incidence of hip fracture.

Fujita T1.

Author information Abstract

Hip fracture incidence seems to be lower in Japan than in many Western countries, but the difference is apparently becoming smaller with progressive Westernization of the Japanese lifestyle and nutritional habits. Nutrition cannot explain the lower incidence of hip fracture. A lower calcium intake prevails in Japan. Genetic differences in body build, including a lower center of gravity, better motor function and agility, well developed hip musculature and small but more fracture-resistant bones secondary to a difference in life- and work-style may contribute to fewer falls and a lower fracture rate among Japanese than among their Western counterparts. Such traditional lifestyle habits as sitting directly on the floor are rapidly decreasing, and time will tell how much of the low incidence of hip fracture in Japan can be explained by lifestyle and how much by genetic and other factors. The Japanese women who now enjoy a low hip fracture incidence led a hard physical life when they were young. This may be a lesson to the young of future generations in how to avoid bone fractures when they are old. Bone health may be achieved by enjoying life through sports or even the tea ceremony in place of the hard physical work of their ancestors, which is gradually disappearing.

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