Topic: Alternative Treatment

Forum: Alternative Medicine — This forum is a safe, judgement-free place to discuss Alternative medicine. Alternative medicine refers to treatments that are used INSTEAD of standard, evidence-based treatment. Breastcancer.org does NOT recommend or endorse alternative medicine.

Posted on: Aug 8, 2011 10:32AM

Posted on: Aug 8, 2011 10:32AM

dougbrimor wrote:

Has anyone used alternative treatments such as Lorriane Day, Chris Beat Cancer, The Hallelujah Diet and skipped the cookie cutter 6 weeks of radiation and five years of Tamoifen?  I am so confused , even the 2011 cancer book that the radaition department gave me in my red folder states that radiation can cause a second cancer, that they are working on improving these satatics.  I read the whole book cover to cover and was just blown away by what they are admitting of these chemicals.  Anyway, would like to know if anyone else is swinging on this bridge?  Thanks

Dx 7/18/2011, <1cm, Stage I, ER+/PR+, HER2-
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Aug 9, 2011 12:34PM dougbrimor wrote:

Thank you for your time, research and information, I so appreciate it.  I will admitt that this is like swimming in a sea with no idea how to swim.  I spoke to a naturalpath last night and she said that she would do chemo but never radiation, and that she would take tamoxifen just because she wouldn't want to kick herself for not taking it.  However, I keep coming back to the same question, why would you take something that is going to cause further damage to your immune system, when your immune system isn't working as it should to begin with.  I have known for the past two years that my immune system was suppressed and tried to explain that to the bs, however, she said that didn't make a difference.  However, I am super low on B12, been taking shots past year, low on Vitamin D taking supplements past two years, under extreme stress five years and not sleeping, and suffered past year and 1/2 with infection sinus and teeth until I had the teeth extracted 3 months ago, and now the BC diagnosis.  I realize that the docs are more educated, I realize that the woman on this post have a greater knowledge than I do at this point, but I do have common sense, and 6 weeks of radiation, 5 days a week, and tamoixfen for five years, is not allowing me any rest or peace.  I meet with the onocologist Monday, and just wanted to have as much studied as is possible.  I want to be able to have a conversation and not be railroaded as I was with the radiation doctor, who left me unable to think or feel after his comment.  Again I want to thank you.

Dx 7/18/2011, <1cm, Stage I, ER+/PR+, HER2-
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Aug 9, 2011 12:39PM dougbrimor wrote:

Deanna,

I will get my pathlogy report, I do know that it was both progesterone and estrogen [postive, ER negative, was less than 1 cm, removed with a large needle biopsy, and last Friday I had the lumpectonmy, without the sentenial node removal, wrestled with that for three nights and decided that I did not want that done, the margins were all clear.  She did say that they did find precancerous cells also.  I meet with the onocologist on Monday and will I am hoping have a better understanding of the diagnosis.  Thank you Susan

Dx 7/18/2011, <1cm, Stage I, ER+/PR+, HER2-
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Aug 9, 2011 12:43PM mollyann wrote:

Hi,

Be sure to ask your radiation oncologist if the treatment offers any "overall survival benefit."

That means, if you radiate the breast and gain a 10% benefit for recurrence in the breast, does that mean you will live longer (not just from breast cancer) when factoring in the complication rate of radiation on the heart and lungs.

PM me if I can be more specific.

Look it up. Ask questions. Question authority. Respect other's choices.
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Aug 9, 2011 12:59PM Member_of_the_Club wrote:

Susan, I'm not disagreeing with you.  The benefits of any of these treatments depend on your prognosis to begin with.  For many women the benefit is small.  For others it is substantial.  It is very important for everyone to discuss with their oncologist what the benefit is for them.  The pointof the tamoxifen study is that for women who do benefit, the benefit lasts.  Thats all.

Dx 9/30/2004, IDC, 3cm, Stage IIB, Grade 2, 1/17 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2-
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Aug 9, 2011 01:23PM theresap60 wrote:

Thank you all for the timely information on Tamoxifen.  I see my onc next week for my semi-annual checkup and I was going to discuss the benefits of taking Tamox.  I've been on it since May 2010 and my aches and pains have not subsided, even with exercise.  I walk just about every day or do some other form of exercise.  I thought it gave me a 40% chance of the cancer not recurring.  You really have to be careful with statistics.  We have a high rate of cancer in my family, so I may end up staying on it, but I really want to have a heart to heart with my onc and my primary care doctor.  I'm tired of feeling like I'm an 81 year old woman with arthritis instead of a 51 year old woman without arthritis.

Theresa - Diagnosis: 12/24/2009, DCIS, 1.8cm, Stage 1A, Grade 2, 0/4 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2-, Lumpectomy 2/2010, SAVI 3/2010, T/C 4 (April-May 2010), Tamoxifen
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Aug 10, 2011 12:03AM Beeb75 wrote:

SusanK8, I'm reposting my response from another thread. The blog you are are cutting and pasting has some serious errors in it:

The blogger has missed one rather important little phrase from the data: "per woman-year." The tiny percentages s/he is reporting are actually PER YEAR, (not covering the entire 4 or 5 year time period as s/he interprets them to be.)

Unfortunately, they add up fast! One only needs to glance at (just glance, not parse) the actual study to see that many, many, many more women then that have recurrences. For the very group that SusanK8, and the "accidental amazon" refer to...

"the women with ER+ cancers, with and without PR+ receptivity, including 44% who had node positive breast cancer, 56% who did not, and 51% who received chemotherapy."

46 percent of those who did NOT take tamoxifen had a recurrence of breast cancer within 15 years, compared with 33 percent who DID take tamoxifen. In that same group, 33 percent of those who did NOT take tamoxifen died of breast cancer within 15 years, compared to 24 percent who DID take tamoxifen.

So there is the absolute benefit of the drug, for that particular group. Out of every 100 women, 9 lives were saved (or 9 percent.)

I only wish that 90 percent of ER+ breast cancer patients would never have a recurrence even without tamoxifen (actually I wish 100 percent of all people with cancer never would.) The reality is not so pretty.  

But, please, don't believe me. Go take a look at the study yourself.

accidentalamazon.com/LongtermTamoxifen_Lancet7-11 

Just take a look at the charts in this study. Those are the absolute risk reductions...or as I like to think of them, the actual lives saved.

Even among the "good prognosis" group of node-negative, ER positive women...35 percent (35 percent!) had a recurrence of breast cancer within 15 years of diagnosis if they didn't take tamoxifen. If they did take it, only 19 percent had a recurrence (and true, some of those are locoregional or in the contralateral breast, but some are distant metastases).

Anyway, when it comes to tamoxifen, it is NOT small numbers we are talking about, or splitting hairs. The drug is really a literal lifesaver for many women with ER+ breast cancer (who are willing and able to take it.) 


Dx 7/2010, IDC, 2cm, Stage IIB, Grade 3, 1/20 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2-
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Aug 10, 2011 11:39PM mollyann wrote:

Beeb75,

Are you talking about risk of recurrence benefit or overall survival benefit?

Look it up. Ask questions. Question authority. Respect other's choices.
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Aug 11, 2011 11:39AM dougbrimor wrote:

I am not sure how one seperates and divides all this information, howe4ver, I am sure that I need God to clarify what I am to do, the more that I read the more confused I get.  I just checked out a web site called beat cancer.org and it is something that I am going to follow up with, because after listening to Dr. Silverstein, I think that she may shed some light on the radiation and tamoxifen dilemia that I find myself in.  Also this was sent to me by a friend and I thought that I would share it.

Dx 7/18/2011, <1cm, Stage I, ER+/PR+, HER2-
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Aug 11, 2011 02:38PM - edited Aug 13, 2011 04:09PM by Beeb75

Mollyann,

Whether you look at recurrence rate, breast-cancer specific survival, or overall survival, the trends are the same. Outcomes are much better in the groups that take tamoxifen, compared to those that don't.

Since I think you are more interested in overall survival, the study (see Figure 6) showed that in a population of 2614 ER+ women under 45 (44 percent node positive, 79 percent had chemotherapy) 38 percent (38 out of 100 women) of those who did NOT take tamoxifen were dead 15 years later. It was 27 percent among those who did take tamoxifen. So 11 lives saved out of 100 tamoxifen takers. (62 didn't need saving, 27 were unsaveable with currently available treatments.)

For 4373 older ER+ women (55-69 years, 27 percent node-positive, 24 percent had chemotherapy); 46 percent (46 out of 100) of those who did NOT take tamoxifen were dead after 15 years. 37 percent who did take tamoxifen were dead after 15 years (keep in mind because they are older, there were more competing causes of death.) Once again, 9 lives saved out of 100 tamoxifen takers. 

It's also interesting to note that only about 80 percent of women in the "tamoxifen" group actually stuck to the treatment. The beneficial effects from tamoxifen would likely have been more pronounced had *everyone* been compliant.  

Hope that helps!

Dx 7/2010, IDC, 2cm, Stage IIB, Grade 3, 1/20 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2-
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Aug 11, 2011 07:37PM dougbrimor wrote:

Would like to suggest  these web sites as they have been super helpful in helping me have a clearer understanding, what some alternative methods mights be open, and have aided me in making my choices clearer.

beatcancer.org  Dr. Silverstein is amazing

www.grassrootshealth.net

www.the truth aboutbreastcancer.com

wwww.knowbreastcancer.net

goodnews website

Dx 7/18/2011, <1cm, Stage I, ER+/PR+, HER2-

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