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Topic: Alternative Treatment

Forum: Alternative Medicine —

This forum is a safe, judgement-free place to discuss Alternative medicine. Alternative medicine refers to treatments that are used INSTEAD of standard, evidence-based treatment. Breastcancer.org does NOT recommend or endorse alternative medicine.

Posted on: Aug 8, 2011 10:32AM

dougbrimor wrote:

Has anyone used alternative treatments such as Lorriane Day, Chris Beat Cancer, The Hallelujah Diet and skipped the cookie cutter 6 weeks of radiation and five years of Tamoifen?  I am so confused , even the 2011 cancer book that the radaition department gave me in my red folder states that radiation can cause a second cancer, that they are working on improving these satatics.  I read the whole book cover to cover and was just blown away by what they are admitting of these chemicals.  Anyway, would like to know if anyone else is swinging on this bridge?  Thanks

Dx 7/18/2011, <1cm, Stage I, ER+/PR+, HER2-
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Mar 22, 2012 10:04AM abigail48 wrote:

I'd use antibiotics if I really needed to, strep turning into something worse, but I'd try anything else first.  antibiotics ruin the gut & they becodme inneffective with time.

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Mar 22, 2012 10:05AM abigail48 wrote:

I notices a thread for people who only use alternatives, havn't been able to find it again.....

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Mar 22, 2012 10:19AM luv_gardening wrote:

You're in the alternative section now, just look at the top of the page.  But I've only heard from a couple who at first decided to opt out of surgery.  Both of them ended up needing the surgery in the end but by then they had stage IV.  One of them had the most awful story to tell.  And of course their impending death and leaving their families is the worst part. They are still both on these boards but it would be unethical of me to name them and they are both reluctant to tell their stories.

Dx 7/2/2009, ILC, 4cm, Stage IIIA, Grade 2, 9/24 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2-
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Mar 22, 2012 10:28AM Ruby- wrote:

I say there's shame in believing one's intelligence being in the higher range and above others, a little humility goes a long way.  I'm confused, those "deaths" JWL, were all these women under conventional care ?

“The cell’s intracellular cytoplasmic sea is an ocean of symphonic motion awash with incomprehensible complexity.” Howes, M.D., Ph.D Dx 2010, IDC, 2cm, Stage IIB, Grade 1, 3/5 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2-
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Mar 22, 2012 10:28AM luv_gardening wrote:

 What Happens If Breast Cancer Remains Untreated?

 "If the patient is facing a situation in which breast cancer is still localized to the breast and she elects not to have any treatment, it is likely that the breast cancer will eventually spread to other organs. It is also possible that the cancer will grow within the breast and eventually erode through the breast's skin. Such erosion can be difficult to cope with because the open tumor can bleed, ooze fluid, and become infected. However, most patients with breast cancer do elect to have some form of treatment."

"A patient facing breast cancer should talk with her oncologist about the specifics of her cancer and the treatment options. Together, they can weigh the risks and benefits of the various treatments and decide on an appropriate management strategy. Even if the patient elects to have no treatment, she will want to have a doctor who can help her cope with pain, infection, and other potential medical and emotional complications related to cancer. "

Dx 7/2/2009, ILC, 4cm, Stage IIIA, Grade 2, 9/24 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2-
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Mar 22, 2012 10:46AM abigail48 wrote:

can & can & may.  I believe the idea is to die as quietly as possible

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Mar 22, 2012 10:47AM Kadia wrote:

So now most allopaths are addicts. Good grief.

Multicentric/multifocal IDC & DCIS; Lumpectomy 12-11; UMX with immediate recon (TEs) 1-12; chemo began 2-12 (TCx4); Tamoxifen 5 years starting ?? Dx 10/2011, IDC, 2cm, Stage IIA, Grade 2, 0/3 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2-
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Mar 22, 2012 10:48AM thenewme wrote:

Hi JoyLiesWithin - I share your frustration.

Dx 11/2008, IDC, 5cm, Stage IIB, Grade 3, 0/9 nodes, ER-/PR-, HER2-
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Mar 22, 2012 10:52AM abigail48 wrote:

hey, opiates have seduced many for thousands of years.

I don't see still the thread or fora people who have used only alternative treatment.  boy lies within sure is scary.  I can understand her method.  I in fact tried it with my mother who couldn't quit smoking tobacco.  it didn't work

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Mar 22, 2012 10:56AM luv_gardening wrote:

Yes Maud, sadly we have not found the cure for cancer yet. The women who died were mostly young with triple negative.  Once again we need to look at the bottom line.  How many lives are saved that would be lost without treatment?  Roughly 200,000 a year are diagnosed in the USA and 40,000 deaths.  So that's 160,000 lives saved on average each year in your country. That works out to one death to every four lives saved. The ratios are the same in Australia and the UK. 

And I have no qualms in saying I excel in some areas and suck in other areas, just like everyone else.  Unfortunately our education system and society as a result are elitist but that's not my doing. In fact I want that to change, but the education policy makers are the ones who are educated and want kids all to be intellectuals.  Parents demand it too.  So many kids suffer at school thinking they are not good enough because of the high value placed on book work and not enough value placed in practical areas.  As someone who is impractical I envy and admire those of you who have creative and practical skills. Musicians, artists, athletes, extroverts all have something I'd love to have.

So are you not going to tell us a little about yourself?  There's no reason for us to not be friendly but agree to disagree on some points. I've just about told you my life story already.

Dx 7/2/2009, ILC, 4cm, Stage IIIA, Grade 2, 9/24 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2-
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Mar 22, 2012 11:00AM kayfh wrote:

This has been interesting, I am impressed by your patience with some of the responses that this has generated. K

Kay Dx 3/3/2009, IDC, 2cm, Stage IV, Grade 3, 8/8 nodes, mets, ER+/PR-, HER2+ Surgery 4/26/2009 Mastectomy: Left
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Mar 22, 2012 11:14AM Ruby- wrote:

An inconvenient truth

The late H B Jones, Professor of Medical Physics, was a leading US cancer statistician. He said in a speech before the American Cancer Society in 1969 that no study had proved that early intervention improves the chances of survival. On the contrary, his studies proved conclusively that untreated cancer victims live up to four times longer and with better quality of life than treated ones.

Michael Baum MD, a leading breast cancer surgeon, found that breast cancer surgery tends to increase the risk of relapse or death within three years. He also linked surgery to accelerating the cancer by stimulating the formation of metastases in other parts of the body.

An earlier German comparison found that untreated postmenopausal women with breast cancer live longer than treated women, and the recommendation was not to treat postmenopausal women for breast cancer.

This conclusion confirms a finding by Ernst Krokowski, a German professor of radiology. He demonstrated conclusively that metastasis is commonly triggered by medical intervention, including sometimes even a biopsy or surgery unrelated to the cancer . Disturbance of a tumour causes a greatly increased number of cancer cells to enter the bloodstream, while most medical intervention (especially chemotherapy) suppresses the immune system. This combination is a recipe for disaster. It is the metastases that kill, while primary tumours in general, and those in the breast in particular can be relatively harmless. These findings have been confirmed by recent research which shows that surgery, even if unrelated to the cancer, can trigger an explosive spread of metastases and lead to an untimely end.

The respected German biostatistician Ulrich Abel presented a comprehensive analysis of over 3,000 clinical trials on the value of chemotherapy for advanced carcinoma (for instance, breast cancer). (Oncologists tend to use chemotherapy because this may induce a temporary shrinking of the tumour, called a response; however it also tends to produce unpleasant side-effects.)

Abel concluded that there is no direct evidence that chemotherapy prolongs survival in these cases. Abel stated: "Many oncologists take it for granted that response to therapy prolongs survival, an opinion based on a fallacy and which is not supported by clinical studies."

New Scientist, Dr Donald Gould, in a timeless article called "Cancer: A Conspiracy of Silence" The subtitle summarises his position: "The commonest cancers are as resistant to treatment today as they were 40 or 50 years ago. Nothing is to be gained by pretending that the battle against cancer is slowly but surely being won."

A group of respected researchers reviewed all the published statistical evidence on the outcome of medical treatments, and showed that the medical system is now the leading cause of death and injury in the USA. Deaths attributable to heart disease in 2001 were 666,697, for cancer the figure was 553,251, while for medical interventions it was 783,936 per year! Appropriately the title of this study is "Death by Medicine". 

“The cell’s intracellular cytoplasmic sea is an ocean of symphonic motion awash with incomprehensible complexity.” Howes, M.D., Ph.D Dx 2010, IDC, 2cm, Stage IIB, Grade 1, 3/5 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2-
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Mar 22, 2012 11:17AM luv_gardening wrote:

Thenewme, yes I have seen where you are coming from, but I'm more interested in the prospect that new ideas are important as potential but as yet unproven treatments. Diversity is important for progress even though most new ideas may come to nothing.  Whereas you are more evidence based, like my son who is an active skeptic and questions some of my beliefs and interests. I can also see many problems with doctors, health systems and pharmacology that are holding back real progress.  Mostly due to people's egos.  Everyone wants to be right!

People who are willing to try out unconventional treatments are basically volunteering to make themselves guinea pigs and in that sense are brave pioneers, and maybe one day they will come across the real cure.  Medicine can only cure infections, nearly everything else is merely treated. And of course vaccines have prevented countless deaths. Surgery on the other hand can perform miracles even though it can be damaging too. So I think I have a fairly balanced view.

Dx 7/2/2009, ILC, 4cm, Stage IIIA, Grade 2, 9/24 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2-
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Mar 22, 2012 11:19AM Ruby- wrote:

Joy, you're more than welcome to read my past posts

“The cell’s intracellular cytoplasmic sea is an ocean of symphonic motion awash with incomprehensible complexity.” Howes, M.D., Ph.D Dx 2010, IDC, 2cm, Stage IIB, Grade 1, 3/5 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2-
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Mar 22, 2012 11:22AM luv_gardening wrote:

So Maud, where are all the 160,000 coming from who are cured since they've all had surgery?  The people you are quoting are looking at isolated cases but the vast majority who have surgery and treatment are saved.

Dx 7/2/2009, ILC, 4cm, Stage IIIA, Grade 2, 9/24 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2-
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Mar 22, 2012 11:41AM Ruby- wrote:

Did you say "cured" ??? and saved ????

Am sorry, but I have more important things to do, i.e. research on radiation re upcoming MRI

According to Dr. Frank Shallenberger:

"Doctors are finally realizing that most people have cancer in their body. But it's latent - or hidden - cancer."

Then he goes on to explain, "The existence of latent cancers is very reassuring. They
clearly demonstrate how effective a healthy immune system can be in stopping
cancer. It's so effective that the great majority of latent cancers never go on to
become full-blown cancers. And that's good news
"

http://journals.sfu.ca/africanem/index.php/ajtcam
 

“The cell’s intracellular cytoplasmic sea is an ocean of symphonic motion awash with incomprehensible complexity.” Howes, M.D., Ph.D Dx 2010, IDC, 2cm, Stage IIB, Grade 1, 3/5 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2-
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Mar 22, 2012 11:48AM luv_gardening wrote:

Maud, I agree with a lot of what your previous post said, but more are saved than die.  Once again it's the bottom line that counts.  I'd like to see everyone come together and work out a better system instead of taking sides and fighting.  We all want to see the same outcomes, that is, people being cured or relieved of their suffering.  We just need to find a way that allows us to move forward in a way that we can agree on.

Well it's my bedtime but thanks to all for the interesting conversation. 

PS, oh yes, I slipped up. Remission not cure, but if they die of something else then yes, they are saved as they would be long ago dead otherwise.

Dx 7/2/2009, ILC, 4cm, Stage IIIA, Grade 2, 9/24 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2-
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Mar 22, 2012 11:55AM abigail48 wrote:

& to moew positive stuff:  for those of you who juice, what do you juice?  currently I juice ginger, cucumber, celery apple, dark grapes.  you need to know what you're doing:  for a time I juiced fennel, nice & juicy for the weight but I think that's what started the cyst (s) to go bad.  I finally got the laptop, I was afraid before that the biker would get into too much trouble with gambling, but he didn't gamble, or porn, but he didn't like that much, I should have trusted him more I guess though he wasn't at all trustworthy, anyway I googled fennel & it turns out it's very estrogenic.

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Mar 22, 2012 11:59AM Kaara wrote:

I truly believe my bc was latent and became invasive when I had a series of immune system disfunctions over the course of several months, two summers ago.  I was stung by bees, then got shingles, then two very bad UTI's and finally a flu shot and a bad case of the flu.  It was the following year that I was dx with bc.  I think my system was fighting so hard to overcome the other issues that I was having that it allowed the bc to become the invasive variety rather than keeping it in check as before.  When my vitamin D levels were tested, I was very low, an indication of a poorly functioning immune system.

I am doing everything possible now, from diet to supplementation to even taking tamoxifen (a conventional compromise) to prevent recurrence.  I did draw the line on rads and chemo though and refused both.  My MO smiled when he checked my breasts yesterday, simply saying "I can tell you didn't have rads because your breasts reflect that...they are in very good condition".  He almost seemed pleased that I didn't have rads, which is strange for a conventional doctor.

Kaara Dx 11/14/2011, IDC, <1cm, Stage I, Grade 1, 0/1 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2-
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Mar 22, 2012 12:00PM - edited Mar 22, 2012 12:02PM by Ruby-

Maybe we can all agree to not use such sweeping statements as "yes, they are saved as they would be long ago dead otherwise"  To my knowledge, the 2 % "saved" stat has not budged.

I am hanging by a thread right now wanting so so so hard to believe that treatment (surgery, chemo rads + Tamox) has saved me !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

“The cell’s intracellular cytoplasmic sea is an ocean of symphonic motion awash with incomprehensible complexity.” Howes, M.D., Ph.D Dx 2010, IDC, 2cm, Stage IIB, Grade 1, 3/5 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2-
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Mar 22, 2012 12:40PM Kaara wrote:

Maud:  All we can do is everything that feels right for our bodies and then hope and pray that it was the right thing to do in the long run.  We can't obsess over the outcome because that alone creates stress that we don't need in our lives.

Kaara Dx 11/14/2011, IDC, <1cm, Stage I, Grade 1, 0/1 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2-
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Mar 22, 2012 12:48PM Ruby- wrote:

Thanks Kaara, but all those treatments did not feel right for my body.  Like so many others, I was scared into those treatments and now have to live with the consequences for the rest of my life Cry

I would really like to know how many women did feel that chemo and rads felt right for their body, really ? 

I so totally agree that we don't need the stress (especially on these forums)

amen sister 

“The cell’s intracellular cytoplasmic sea is an ocean of symphonic motion awash with incomprehensible complexity.” Howes, M.D., Ph.D Dx 2010, IDC, 2cm, Stage IIB, Grade 1, 3/5 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2-
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Mar 22, 2012 12:49PM luv_gardening wrote:

200,000-40,000=160,000 saved each year who would otherwise be dead.  Simple maths, no sweeping statements.  PS, still waiting to hear how you avoid metastasis.

MRI, no radiation, strong magnets, small chance of kidney damage due to the contrast, safer than CT or PET scans provided your kidneys are good and no flying metal collides with you.  Very noisy and staying still a long time makes for an unpleasant time but doable.

Good night.

Dx 7/2/2009, ILC, 4cm, Stage IIIA, Grade 2, 9/24 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2-
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Mar 22, 2012 12:54PM Kaara wrote:

I have managed to escape an MRI all these years...I hate being in tight places, so it freaks me out to even think of it.  I'm sure befoe it's all over I'll have to endure that one as well!

Kaara Dx 11/14/2011, IDC, <1cm, Stage I, Grade 1, 0/1 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2-
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Mar 22, 2012 01:00PM Ruby- wrote:

Joy, exactly my point:  "simple math" for the simple: "ignorant, foolish, or gullible person" or perhaps simple as in : "a person of humble origins; commoner" ?

Re your PS - you're getting me confused

More misinformation on your part :

"Magnetic Resonance Imaging uses electromagnetic radiation, in the radio wave region of the electromagnetic spectrum to produce images. Physically, it doesn't get any more radio than that, but colloquially, when people speak of radiation they are talking about high energy ionizing radiation. Ionizing radiation is of much shorter wavelength.

In physics it's colloquially called "hot" radiation, and it is capable of damaging tissue, cancerous or not. "

Want more ???????????????? 

 

“The cell’s intracellular cytoplasmic sea is an ocean of symphonic motion awash with incomprehensible complexity.” Howes, M.D., Ph.D Dx 2010, IDC, 2cm, Stage IIB, Grade 1, 3/5 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2-
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Mar 22, 2012 01:04PM leggo wrote:

PS, still waiting to hear how you avoid metastasis

???.

You can't "avoid" metastasis. It either will or it won't.

"Once more into the fray... Into the last good fight I'll ever know... Live and die on this day... Live and die on this day." - The Grey
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Mar 22, 2012 01:10PM Kadia wrote:

Kaara, the open MRIs are much less claustrophobic, if you do have to do one--you can usually request an open one.

Multicentric/multifocal IDC & DCIS; Lumpectomy 12-11; UMX with immediate recon (TEs) 1-12; chemo began 2-12 (TCx4); Tamoxifen 5 years starting ?? Dx 10/2011, IDC, 2cm, Stage IIA, Grade 2, 0/3 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2-
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Mar 22, 2012 01:12PM Kaara wrote:

Kadia:  That's good to know!  Thanks

Kaara Dx 11/14/2011, IDC, <1cm, Stage I, Grade 1, 0/1 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2-
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Mar 22, 2012 01:47PM abigail48 wrote:

still online.  found something interesting:  chaga mushroom.  & with my wonderful luck I think I burned one of those last time at the studio.  It's a clump of spores/melanin grows on mostly harvested birtch in our neck or the woods, & russia...........there are supplements..........seems it inhanses immunity & inhibits tumor growth.......

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Mar 22, 2012 02:17PM Kaara wrote:

abigail:  I'm taking mushrooms as a supplement and that is what they do...boost the immune system so that it can fight off the cancer and inhibit growth of tumors.  Don't know if will shrink an existing tumor though.  My research didn't indicate that.

Kaara Dx 11/14/2011, IDC, <1cm, Stage I, Grade 1, 0/1 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2-

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