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Topic: Alternative Treatment

Forum: Alternative Medicine —

This forum is a safe, judgement-free place to discuss Alternative medicine. Alternative medicine refers to treatments that are used INSTEAD of standard, evidence-based treatment. Breastcancer.org does NOT recommend or endorse alternative medicine.

Posted on: Aug 8, 2011 10:32AM

dougbrimor wrote:

Has anyone used alternative treatments such as Lorriane Day, Chris Beat Cancer, The Hallelujah Diet and skipped the cookie cutter 6 weeks of radiation and five years of Tamoifen?  I am so confused , even the 2011 cancer book that the radaition department gave me in my red folder states that radiation can cause a second cancer, that they are working on improving these satatics.  I read the whole book cover to cover and was just blown away by what they are admitting of these chemicals.  Anyway, would like to know if anyone else is swinging on this bridge?  Thanks

Dx 7/18/2011, <1cm, Stage I, ER+/PR+, HER2-
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Mar 22, 2012 03:58PM candygurl wrote:

Maud, because breast thermography is mainly useful during early phases of rapid tumor growth that is not yet detectable by mammograms, it has the potential to detect problems 5 - 8 years before abnormalities can be visible with mammograms. As Kaara mentioned, this early detection of abnormal tissue activity gives the opportunity to use noninvasive natural therapies to improve breast tissue function. If there is cause for concern, the practitioner will instruct you on how to proceed. 

These are the TH ranges:

  • 0-29 normal
  • 30-74 normal with possible benign cystic characteristics
  • 75-119 considered at risk, possibly benign cystic
  • 120-149 abnormal, moderate risk.
  • > 150 Severely abnormal, high risk

Thermography is based on thermodynamics and thermokinetics, which are unfamiliar to most old-fashioned oncologists.  If needed, you would have to educate him.  If he is not open and your TH is high, I would just find another oncologist.  NOTE: Breast thermography and mammography are complementary procedures, one test isn't a substitute for other.

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Mar 22, 2012 03:59PM candygurl wrote:

JoyLiesWithin, I am guessing that you do not have an integrative/alternative physician helping you with a strategy to build your body and its defenses to help protect against mets.   I also get the impression that your understanding of alternative cancer therapies is limited and vague.  That's common especially among those who work in the medical field. These individuals often reject alternative medicine without having even tried or researched them.  To clarify, alternative medicine does not mean "no treatment". The techniques that alternative physicians currently use to eradicate cancer and restore health often work impressively well and sometimes surgery is not needed.     

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Mar 22, 2012 05:45PM digger wrote:

zuvart,

I don't think you have a clue just how extraordinarily condescending and patronizing (and naive) your last comment to JoyLiesWithin was.  She has been a member here a lot longer than you have, and many members know her quite well.  To make such a broad, sweeping statement such as you just did (stating that if only she knew how to build her immune system, then she wouldn't be where she is today) is so incredibly hurtful.  

Joy, on behalf of many others on BCO who get it, I apologize. 

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Mar 22, 2012 06:14PM suzieq60 wrote:

abigail - There is one lady on here who does share her story of what happened to her when she didn't have surgery. Search for posts by Chilipaddi - her story is SO very sad - she got fooled by alternative claims and has suffered terribly. Surgery has to be the No 1 thing any woman diagnosed with breast cancer should do.

2nd diagnosis October 2010 - IDC 5.8mm node negative - missed on mammogram in October 2009 Dx 10/13/2009, ILC, 1cm, Stage I, Grade 3, 0/5 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2+
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Mar 22, 2012 06:15PM Kadia wrote:

Would love to see the research on how alternative tx "eradicates" cancer. None of the integrative oncology texts I've read makes such claims, although they point to many promising substances and practices.

Multicentric/multifocal IDC & DCIS; Lumpectomy 12-11; UMX with immediate recon (TEs) 1-12; chemo began 2-12 (TCx4); Tamoxifen 5 years starting ?? Dx 10/2011, IDC, 2cm, Stage IIA, Grade 2, 0/3 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2-
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Mar 22, 2012 08:10PM abigail48 wrote:

there was a thread or a fora people who have used only alternatives.  I havn't seen it for awhile.  I have seen where members are still drinking coffee.

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Mar 22, 2012 08:13PM abigail48 wrote:

a search for chilipaddi received no hits.  not really interested in horror stories though. interested in that thread which seems to have vanished

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Mar 22, 2012 08:58PM Ruby- wrote:

There you go Abigail, a train wreck is what it turned out to be unfortunately - you know you can select your favorite threads, the red button right above the blue box on top "Add to my favorite topics", it's much easier to follow topics that way Wink

community.breastcancer.org/for... 

Zuvart, my interpretation of your post is nowhere near what some are accusing you of, twisting your words, what a nice way to welcome a new member !  As you can see, alternative threads attract many non alternative minded people who just like to hang around and thrash what people post, their idea of quality time (shrug)

Thanks for the heads up on thermography.  My concern is that if I were to get an 'above 150' score let's say, I would be panicking, because my situation right now does not permit me to get extensive alt treatments - so I would be left with the knowledge which I could do nothing about.  I recall my BS demanding a mammogram (I soooo did not want to have a mammogram) before he proceeded to surgery.

Bottom line, surgery and/or conventional treatment can proceed only if a tumour is detectable by the current standard technology, they will not treat otherwise.  That's quite a sobering thought. Scary really.

That's why it is so crucial that effective alternative therapies be integrated in our care and reimbursed by insurance companies.  

“The cell’s intracellular cytoplasmic sea is an ocean of symphonic motion awash with incomprehensible complexity.” Howes, M.D., Ph.D Dx 2010, IDC, 2cm, Stage IIB, Grade 1, 3/5 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2-
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Mar 22, 2012 09:06PM Kaara wrote:

Maud:  A highly suspicious area on a thermography would lead you to have an MRI rather than a mammogram, because very likely it would be so early in it's development stage that it would not show up anywhere but on an MRI.  I believe that insurance does cover MRI's

Kaara Dx 11/14/2011, IDC, <1cm, Stage I, Grade 1, 0/1 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2-
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Mar 22, 2012 09:18PM Ruby- wrote:

Do you think Kaara that an MRI covers the gap ?  I don't know how small a tumour MRIs can detect, am gonna google ...

“The cell’s intracellular cytoplasmic sea is an ocean of symphonic motion awash with incomprehensible complexity.” Howes, M.D., Ph.D Dx 2010, IDC, 2cm, Stage IIB, Grade 1, 3/5 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2-
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Mar 22, 2012 09:51PM suzieq60 wrote:

abigail - sorry spelling was wrong - Chillipadi - you should be interested it could happen to you if you don't have surgery.

2nd diagnosis October 2010 - IDC 5.8mm node negative - missed on mammogram in October 2009 Dx 10/13/2009, ILC, 1cm, Stage I, Grade 3, 0/5 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2+
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Mar 22, 2012 10:44PM - edited Mar 23, 2012 02:35AM by NattyOnFrostyLake

There are so many horror stories on the Stage 4 thread of those who did conventional..pages and pages.

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Mar 22, 2012 11:01PM dogsandjogs wrote:

Right after I was diagnosed, but before I had the lumpectomy, I discovered a lump in my armpit (other side) The Breast Center was given a hard time by the insurance co who finally authorized it. It was quite expensive --$6,000   I wish I could have one annually since neither one of my breast cancers were seen on my yearly mammograms - I found them myself 

Dx 11/1982, IDC, <1cm, Stage I, Grade 2, 0/17 nodes Surgery 11/17/1982 Lymph node removal: Right; Mastectomy: Right; Reconstruction (right): Nipple reconstruction Dx 11/15/2010, IDC, <1cm, Stage I, Grade 2, 0/1 nodes, ER+/PR+ Surgery 2/11/2011 Lumpectomy: Left; Lymph node removal: Left, Sentinel
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Mar 22, 2012 11:08PM luv_gardening wrote:

Zuvart, when you said "There are preventive strategies to prevent cancer metastasis." I guess you meant the integrative therapists which we don't have here in Australia in the same way you do in parts of America.

And no, I didn't take you to mean what Digger said at all.  I don't use an integrative therapist as I did some training in Naturopathy around 35 years ago and saw the biased views, the lack of any real evidence to support their methods, and the lack of an internship like doctors have to do, so their diagnosis could miss potentially fatal and urgent conditions. Many of the students were incredibly biased towards their own favourite modality yet spoke of "holistic" while using the same methods on all their patients.  Back then, fasting was all the rage.  I'm sure there are some excellent integrative therapists out there who can see the bigger picture, but wouldn't have a clue how to find the good ones.  Our laws are different here in Australia. 

I'm familiar with the various modalities as I have continued to read and study widely. I have used a chiropractor (a friend who has moved interstate now) and a TCM practitioner in the past. I also own one of the earlier BIll Henderson books and have followed his newsletters for a decade at least. His main strategy is the Budwig Protocol which I tried for a while.  When I found out the main yahoo group was deleting all negative reports I lost interest. I also have read many of the alternative web sites and find the information varies from good to painfully, mind bendingly bad.  When people use distorted and biased 'facts' to prove their point, I know their information is worthless as I use logic.  I like Mercola but don't agree with some of his ideas, especially vaccinations. He ignores obvious facts so his logic is flawed. At least he consults with conventional experts and presents his evidence clearly and concisely. 

I'm also a huge supporter of an Australian who has an impressive record with a small but meaningful percentage of people who have recovered from metastatic cancer and I'm waiting for studies into his patients to be completed.  I do believe there is something in the alternative methods that can and does work in the right combination, but proper studies are required to pin down what that something is.  I believe studies of those who have recovered from documented metastatic cancer are urgently needed to find the common strategies and weed out the other factors.

When you say  "a strategy to build your body and its defenses to help protect against mets.", there are no proven strategies and many that may work for some people.  Things like healthy living, exercise etc have been shown to reduce the percentage of progressions.  There are many studies but none are a guarantee.  These are the strategies I use, the ones that have been studied, plus some others I feel comfortable with trying due to their early promise. 

I was pleased to see Timothy recently post about a study showing there may be some benefit after all to an alkaline diet in fighting cancer. I hope that gets further studied.  I like those who keep an open mind and enjoy the debates (unless people become abusive) as there are often gems of wisdom in the arguments. And I love all the BCO members who try to help and support each other even when they may disagree.

Dx 7/2/2009, ILC, 4cm, Stage IIIA, Grade 2, 9/24 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2-
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Mar 22, 2012 11:29PM dunesleeper wrote:

I will glady share what alternative treatments I do as I learn them. For now, I am trying to eat alkaline foods. However, I am not actually testing my urine to see if it is alkaline. I need to get on that. I have gone for extensive bloodwork for my alternative doctor who specializes in magnetic therapies and supplements. The people at Quest Diagnostic were blown away by the tests he ordered. When I get the results I'll post that information. I see that doctor this coming week, so he should be recommending a lot of supplements, perhaps stopping some I am already taking. On the 31st I will meet with an herbalist. Hopefully he will be good. If not, I will find another. I know one who is also an acupuncturist and an MD, but I don't know how much experience he has with cancer. I will find out if need be though. On April 4th I meet with the medical oncologist, even though I will not be taking his poisons. I don't know if he will have any place in the tx team I am putting together. I don't know what he would have to offer to the team. If I approve of the herbalist, I will likely schedule an appt with the nutritionist who pointed me to him. And I think that office has an acupuncturist, as does the office of the doc who works with supplements. So I'll get an acupuncturist on board. I think I would like to find a massage therapist who is familiar with working with cancer patients and potential lymphedema. I think I'd like to find a biofeedback therapist so I can learn relaxation techniques. And I will work at making spirituality larger in my life.

Dx 2/7/2012, IDC, 4cm, Stage IIB, Grade 3, 1/31 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2- Surgery 3/6/2012 Mastectomy: Right; Reconstruction (right): Tissue expander placement Surgery 9/3/2012 Reconstruction (right) Hormonal Therapy 8/19/2014 Arimidex (anastrozole) Dx 8/20/2014, IDC, Stage IV, Grade 3, mets, ER+/PR+, HER2- Dx 4/17/2015, IDC, Stage IV, Grade 3, ER+/PR+, HER2- Chemotherapy 5/3/2015 Taxol (paclitaxel) Chemotherapy 7/9/2015 Carboplatin (Paraplatin), Gemzar (gemcitabine) Radiation Therapy 8/31/2015 External: Bone Targeted Therapy 10/23/2015 Ibrance (palbociclib)
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Mar 22, 2012 11:32PM dunesleeper wrote:

I guess I need to keep the attach signature box checked in order to have my dx show up.

Dx 2/7/2012, IDC, 4cm, Stage IIB, Grade 3, 1/31 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2- Surgery 3/6/2012 Mastectomy: Right; Reconstruction (right): Tissue expander placement Surgery 9/3/2012 Reconstruction (right) Hormonal Therapy 8/19/2014 Arimidex (anastrozole) Dx 8/20/2014, IDC, Stage IV, Grade 3, mets, ER+/PR+, HER2- Dx 4/17/2015, IDC, Stage IV, Grade 3, ER+/PR+, HER2- Chemotherapy 5/3/2015 Taxol (paclitaxel) Chemotherapy 7/9/2015 Carboplatin (Paraplatin), Gemzar (gemcitabine) Radiation Therapy 8/31/2015 External: Bone Targeted Therapy 10/23/2015 Ibrance (palbociclib)
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Mar 22, 2012 11:43PM luv_gardening wrote:

Maud, I tend to agree that there's not enough good evidence to support chemotherapy for most primary cancers.  There are some exceptions such as adjuvant chemo for IBC which has reduced the terrible toll for those women.  Most chemo studies compare one type to another and show small improvements, but these are subject to the usual failings of such research and are questionable. It would be unethical to have a placebo group so it's difficult to prove categorically.

Now that they have a new diagnostic method to find the minutest volume of circulating tumour cells in blood, it should eventually change the accuracy and length of studies as the test will prove the efficacy of the method much sooner. If only they could use the test to show once and for all whether chemo works in different situations so we could be spared from chemo.

Cancer cells in blood predict chances of survival and can help target breast cancer treatment
 

My biggest fear is that researchers will finally find a proven method which will be shown to save some lives but the side effects will be too high. A sort of super chemo with massive side effects. Then any new studies will need to be compared to the new 'standard of care' and new research will be stymied.  And my best hope is that one of the new vaccines currently being trialled will stop cancer from progressing and will be useful for all cancers.

Dx 7/2/2009, ILC, 4cm, Stage IIIA, Grade 2, 9/24 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2-
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Mar 23, 2012 12:52AM suzieq60 wrote:

PattyGroves - for your information I did not have a recurrence - I had 2 separate primaries, one of which was not discovered until 1 year later - totally different pathology - no chemo needed for it. So, no conventional treatment has not failed me. I'm sure if I had not had surgery I'd probably be dead by now.
2nd diagnosis October 2010 - IDC 5.8mm node negative - missed on mammogram in October 2009 Dx 10/13/2009, ILC, 1cm, Stage I, Grade 3, 0/5 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2+
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Mar 23, 2012 01:11AM - edited Mar 23, 2012 02:34AM by NattyOnFrostyLake

I'm so sorry that the chemo didn't work and didn't even last a year to prevent your second breast cancer.

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Mar 23, 2012 01:13AM luv_gardening wrote:

PattyGroves, It's a logical fallacy to point to failures and use them as an excuse to reject the whole treatment.  Those who have died are part of the 1 in 5 who succumb, but that ignores the 4 in 5 who would have died but their lives are saved by current treatments. I find that's the theme on this thread and it's a shame.  WIthout modern medicine, the death rate in America from BC would be around 150,000 to 190,000, depending on how many with DCIS are included in the statistics and how many of those would have recovered.

Dx 7/2/2009, ILC, 4cm, Stage IIIA, Grade 2, 9/24 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2-
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Mar 23, 2012 01:15AM - edited Mar 23, 2012 01:16AM by NattyOnFrostyLake

Just as it is a logical fallacy to point to an anecdotal success and say, I'm alive, the treatment must work.

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Mar 23, 2012 01:25AM luv_gardening wrote:

Patty,  I believe the chemo for primary cancers is supposed to catch any circulating cancer cells, possibly released during the surgery.  It never claimed to eradicate existing tumours.  This is one of the things I find difficult to believe and why I'm doubtful about the efficacy of chemo.  However, it's disturbing to see you use this in a personal way against one of our BCO sisters who is striving to fight off an aggressive form of cancer.

Dx 7/2/2009, ILC, 4cm, Stage IIIA, Grade 2, 9/24 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2-
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Mar 23, 2012 01:29AM - edited Mar 23, 2012 03:06AM by NattyOnFrostyLake

I'm trying to find out the defintion of a chemo success. Is there a definition out there somewhere? In the Manual of Clinical Oncology or soem official place?

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Mar 23, 2012 01:31AM suzieq60 wrote:

PattyGroves - there was no failure at all - I had an undiagnosed cancer which was missed on the mammogram the year before ie it already existed - chemo did not fail me - in fact it probably saved me as the second one was a rare type that often shows up in lots of lymph nodes - I had clear nodes. So, it stopped it spreading. It is well known that lower grade cancers do not respond to chemo. It is also possible it's grade was lowered by the chemo according to my onc.

You are totally wrong in saying what you have said - it was not a recurrence and chemo did not fail me

2nd diagnosis October 2010 - IDC 5.8mm node negative - missed on mammogram in October 2009 Dx 10/13/2009, ILC, 1cm, Stage I, Grade 3, 0/5 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2+
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Mar 23, 2012 01:33AM - edited Mar 23, 2012 03:04AM by NattyOnFrostyLake

 Good for you!

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Mar 23, 2012 01:44AM Ang7 wrote:

Once again a thread going bad... 

I think Susie sees her chemo as a success as she is alive to tell us about it.

There should be no reason to bust on her for that.

I feel the same way about chemo.  Sometimes you do things in life in order to survive.

Very pleased Penguin Cold Cap user Dx 5/25/2009, IDC, 2cm, Stage IIA, Grade 2, 1/4 nodes, ER-/PR-, HER2+
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Mar 23, 2012 02:41AM suzieq60 wrote:

PattyGroves - I really don't get what you are talking about. I DID NOT have a recurrence after my initial treatment!!!!! - can't spell it out any easier for you.
2nd diagnosis October 2010 - IDC 5.8mm node negative - missed on mammogram in October 2009 Dx 10/13/2009, ILC, 1cm, Stage I, Grade 3, 0/5 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2+
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Mar 23, 2012 03:07AM suzieq60 wrote:

PattyGroves - I note you have conveniently edited your posts - good for you!!!

2nd diagnosis October 2010 - IDC 5.8mm node negative - missed on mammogram in October 2009 Dx 10/13/2009, ILC, 1cm, Stage I, Grade 3, 0/5 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2+
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Mar 23, 2012 03:07AM luv_gardening wrote:

Abigail, to find the alternative forum, go to the top of this page and look for this:

Forum Index → Forum: Alternative Medicine → Topic: Alternative Treatment  

Click on the words  Forum: Alternative Medicine  to get there.

Dx 7/2/2009, ILC, 4cm, Stage IIIA, Grade 2, 9/24 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2-
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Mar 23, 2012 03:08AM suzieq60 wrote:

I am 2 years out from treatment for HER2+ve bc with no recurrence and no mets, so I would say that's a good result.

2nd diagnosis October 2010 - IDC 5.8mm node negative - missed on mammogram in October 2009 Dx 10/13/2009, ILC, 1cm, Stage I, Grade 3, 0/5 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2+

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