Topic: Non dairy.....why I feel let down by Jane plant

Jul 26, 2013 08:37AM - edited Jul 26, 2013 08:39AM by Momine

Abigail, nobody is hectoring anyone. There is a discussion of the pros and cons of dairy, as per the OP about a proponent of a no-dairy diet to fight cancer.

Also, this is the complementary forum, where, as far as I understood, it was allowed to enter evidence-based arguments into the discussion as well as question claims.

Jul 26, 2013 08:47AM Momine wrote:

Lily, I have long thought that forcing animals or the soil/plants to overproduce probably isn't a great idea, and using a bunch of meds and fertilizers to do it seems like a really bad idea. I also think that we in the West have fallen into the habit of consuming far too much meat and dairy. I am just not convinced that these foods, in and of themselves, are necessarily bad across the board.

Jul 26, 2013 10:03AM Momine wrote:

Selena, well said and that is sort of where I am too. I am quite disicplined about getting exercise, keeping my weight steady, eating lots of veggies etc., but I try to keep it in perspective.

Jul 26, 2013 10:54AM Momine wrote:

Lily, yes, that is certainly something to watch for. I have cut back drastically on carbs, especially "white" carbs. 

To have "back-up food" around, I try to keep tomatoes and onions around, along with parsley and already boiled legumes (canned or frozen), as well as mushrooms (fresh and dried) and some frozen veggies. If you saute mushrooms and broccoli with garlic it makes a perfectly fine, light meal and it takes only a few minutes.

Jul 28, 2013 12:35AM curveball wrote:

@Raili, What's judgemental about saying one feels "let down"? By her own words in the linked article, Ms Plant didn't follow her own advice. By the dates she herself provides in the article, she didn't reveal the progression of her cancer to her followers for several months after she found out about it, and then only when she could once again claim that the diet she advocates put her cancer into remission. The OP doesn't say she is "let down" because Jane Plant ate what she (the OP) considers the wrong diet, but because Jane Plant didn't conform to her own dietary standards, which she also advocates that others should follow.

Who wouldn't be disappointed if a person she had trusted and decided to follow, as the OP has been following Jane Plant's diet, turned out to be deviating from her own program, had not revealed this fact to her followers, and then afterward continued to promote sales of her book and her specific diet? In the linked article, Ms Plant writes that not just any vegan diet, but specifically Plant Programme One (her own program), "...is the diet for those with active cancer".

If my conventional oncologist were to get cancer (heaven forbid), but didn't follow the "standard of care" which he has been recommending to me, had a recurrence and hid it from people who did follow his suggested treatment plan, but continued to tout a book he had written advocating conventional treatments, I'd feel let down, the same way OP does. I wouldn't be glad he had cancer, but I would be disappointed in such a lack of transparency.

It isn't judgementalism, lack of compassion, or blaming the victim to expect people to practice what they preach, and to be disappointed in them if they don't.

Aug 4, 2013 02:34AM - edited Aug 4, 2013 02:36AM by curveball

@davemclane, I've only read the linked post, not any of Ms Plant's other books, but I don't find what I know of her convincing either. I think she has fallen into two forms of invalid reasoning:

• "false cause", i.e. reasoning that "Chinese women get breast cancer less often than Western women, Chinese women eat very little dairy food, therefore avoiding dairy will prevent or treat breast cancer"
• "post hoc/propter hoc" fallacy, i.e. reasoning that since the cancer remissions of the 63 women, or the improvement in her own health, followed adoption of the Plant Program, the change of diet caused the remissions, or Ms Plant's better dental health, her reduced incidence of infections, and so on.

The fact that her reasoning is flawed doesn't necessarily mean her conclusion is false, it just means she hasn't proven her point yet. It may very well be that diet does affect breast cancer risk. I just did a quick search (vegetarian+diet+breast+cancer) in Pub Med and turned up dozens of papers on the topic. Skimming the abstracts reveals conflicting data about whether vegetarianism reduces breast cancer risk, and, if it does, whether vegetarians benefit because they eat less meat than omnivores, or because they eat more vegetables and legumes. It could even be true that there is risk associated with eating dairy foods. There's another thread here at bco, I don't remember exactly where, describing a study with results that suggest the danger is in the dairy fat, which is where the pregnant/lactating cow's hormones end up. Since growth of some breast cancers is promoted by hormones, it's not unreasonable to suspect that the hormones present in the milk-fat component of dairy foods could be dangerous to those of us with ER+ and/or PR+ disease. In any case, I don't think avoiding dairy products can do any harm, even if it is not proven to be beneficial. Whatever nutrients might be gained from dairy can be found from other sources.

I hope your partner's treatment is successful, whether she uses Western medicine, alternative treatments, or a combination.

Aug 4, 2013 08:18PM davemclane wrote:

@Curveball. I agree, "The fact that her reasoning is flawed doesn't necessarily mean her conclusion is false, it just means she hasn't proven her point yet." 

Perhaps the most important thing I found lacking in Plants' book is that while she references both China and Japan as low-milk, low-breast cancer countries, she didn't include what I consider the foundations of those countries life view: the "I-Ching," "The Yellow Emperor" and other related writings which can be summed up as "Five Element Theory."

Although there are significant differences between how meals are traditionally organized,  the basic structure comes from Five Element Theory where there is a center and other items arranged around it and that center is usually rice although sometimes other grains. There is no simple cause -> effect; each Element has relationships with the others and those relationships change over time. Thus there is dynamic balance.

Joseph Needham had a problem with this as described in Volume Five of his life-time work, "Science and Civilization in Ancient China." For centuries China technology was far ahead of the west but got left behind during the industrial age. Later, it began to catch up with mechanical technology where Western logic and terminology were translated into Chinese, but when it came to living things it kept the same terms used in Five Element Theory which were incomprehensible to Needham even though he understood Chinese. 

Thus it looks to me like Plant took one item, diary products, and  put it together with the logic Western mechanical technology to arrive at her conclusions.

Oct 23, 2013 11:42AM SelenaWolf wrote:

That is really all you can do.  Be as healthy as you can be, live well and enjoy life.  That's the best that anyone can do.  It would be a shame to have gone through the horrors of breast cancer and be afraid of living.

Oct 23, 2013 08:12PM jessica749 wrote:

Some things just make sense. Whether prospective randomized trials have been done or not. And so it is with (non-organic) dairy, with me. I ate dairy with abandon until my diagnosis a few years ago. Who knows what (or what combination of factors) caused my bc- but I do know that consumption of non-organic dairy certainly didn't help .Have you all seen this?

From some time ago http://www.breastcancer.org/risk/organic_living/articles/dirty_dairy

Oct 23, 2013 09:58PM Mardibra wrote:

Ive avoided dairy nearly all my life. I simply dont like it! But here I am, with BC.

Oct 24, 2013 03:14AM Kathy044 wrote:

Well Jane Plant is in the UK. According to the article rBGH is approved for use by dairy producers in the USA but banned in much of the rest of the world including the UK Canada and Australia. The article mentioned a problem in the US about early puberty and wondered what the effect early puberty will have on cancer in the future when these girls get older.

I have a copy of Julia B. Greer's "The Anti-Breast Cancer Cookbook" published this year 2013. Greer suggests rBGH and rBST are proteins which are destroyed by stomach acid and enzymes so do not make it into our bloodstream. Greer does suggest organic milk is better than conventional milk though, because it has been shown in studies in Sweden that the organic milk is more likely to be higher in omega-3's which is good for diminishing cancer. David Servan-Schreiber in "Anti-cancer a new way of life" says the same thing regarding omega-3 and omega-6 in dairy products but that though organic milk is more likely to come from pasture fed cows it isn't necessarily so, milk from cows fed in the winter months with organic corn can be labeled organic too,

Kathy

Oct 26, 2013 09:48AM jessica749 wrote:

kathy044- I was speaking for myself - my own opinion of what makes sense and in no way defending this UK woman I've never read or heard of til this thread. And sharing info with all who read this and live in the USA where, unfortunately, rBGH is not banned from dairy. It's safe to assume it's in every American dairy product, or every product that contains US dairy.

The concern raised in the article I linked to from breastcancer.org was, to me, less about early puberty (not relevant to us on board now dealing w. this) than it was about inc levels of IGF-1 in the blood and urine of people who consume products contaminated with this growth hormone. IGF 1 is linked to increasing cancer growth. While there may be so much unknown about this, it seems enough is known to give me pause.

I certainly don't believe US non organic dairy by itself causes cancer, any more than I believe its removal from my diet now will ensure no recurrence. But it's all about taking the information that's out there - about what we know is good for us, and not good for us, and living (sorry to quote Oprah) our best possible lives with that. Maybe some people love love dairy and won't be happy wo it in their diet - fine. If in the US, choose low fat, organic products. (Or buy foreign low fat cheeses ! ). Or limit consumption if this isn't possible for you, just like we shouldn't really eat red meat everyday...

I don't know Jane Greer's work. Thanks for mentioning as via quick google search she seems to have some expertise from which to speak. I'll see if I can get her book from the library as I'm always open to more intelligent opinion on all bc matters.

Re servan shreiber work- because he had limited things to say in his book about dairy cannot be interpreted to mean anything more than that. It just means he had limited things he wanted to say in his book-at that point. He certainly never endorsed dairy or encouraged it beyond encouraging omega 3 vs omega 6. One can spin it several ways, but fair is to read nothing into the absence of information.

You and others can disagree or choose to place greater emphasis on other contrary information, I mainly want to make the point for all in the US reading that I posted the bc link above because of IGF1 concerns in nonorganic American dairy products. (Early puberty is worrisome but another story). I wouldn't want people to read these posts, then not read the link because your post dismisses it as about early puberty.

Oct 26, 2013 11:34AM abigail48 wrote:

I use high fat organic dairy for the calories. I lost 15 lbds 6 years ago & havn't yet manages to put it back. I weigh 120, and am 5'5" (was 5 6), I wighed this much in my twenties but am not 20 any more. gary has said that cow's milk, the protein molecule is too big for humans, it being for calves, that thus goat's milk is better

Oct 27, 2013 12:57PM jessica749 wrote:

5'8" and 125 lbs? WOW. We share height but add some tens to the weight... I realize full well that more than what kind/whether dairy or no dairy, most important for me is to reach a healthier weight....(I'm trying!)

Oct 27, 2013 02:39PM abigail48 wrote:

I found some cheese from ireland awhile ago, I assume no growth hormones as they're illegal in europe. salty though. so good with dark grapes. but gave it up after a bit. will look for trader joe's cheese, I miss it.........I've been making strawberry jam for my oatmeal: cut off the away the hulls for juicing, cut the berries in 2 or 3, add to a pot with a bit of water, some maple sirup & quite a bit of cinnemon. cook until berries are soft. too liquid for bread but just right for cereal.