INSOMNIACS place to talk in the wee hours
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Blame it on short term memory loss. I read something and thirty seconds later I've lost it. Forgot my weather update. Storms moved through this morning, torrential rain, wind, etc. But by the time we met it had stopped, and now it's clear and sunny here, and Beatmon is having a pedicure. Storms moved off east.0
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Nice pic!!!
I don't have leg cramps, but on another forum it was discussed and almonds were suggested. A yummier way to get magnesium. Plus whatever else they're noted for.
Or, tonic water. Has a small amount of quinine, my cardio suggested that years ago. Tastes MUCH better with gin.
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Magnesium isn't associated with being a problem with the diuretics as sodium and potassium. Quinine was used decades ago, but was booted out. Forget why. I'll go look.
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J Clin Pharmacol. 1995 Jun;35(6):588-93.
Is quinine effective and safe in leg cramps?
Mandal AK1, Abernathy T, Nelluri SN, Stitzel V.
Author information
- 1Department of Medicine, Wright State University, VA Medical Center, Dayton, OH 45428, USA.
Abstract
Muscle cramp is a recurrent and painful condition and a common complaint among elderly subjects and patients treated with hemodialysis. It is commonly nocturnal and can disturb a good night's sleep. No specific cause can be identified; therefore, therapy is mostly symptomatic. Quinine sulfate, an antimalarial drug, is widely used as an effective therapy for idiopathic leg cramps. Several double-blind, randomized, placebo-controlled studies have questioned the effectiveness of quinine in leg cramps; whereas other studies have shown significantly more benefit with use of quinine in reducing the frequency and severity of cramps compared with placebo or vitamin E. The mechanism of this beneficial effect is obscure, however. Quinine appears to decrease the excitability of the motor end plate, thereby reducing the muscle contractility. Most patients consider quinine beneficial for their leg cramps, which is difficult to refute by scientific data. More important, cramp is a subjective symptom, therefore difficult to measure objectively. Consequently, scientific studies designed to prove or disprove the effectiveness of quinine can be subject to flaws. Further, a dosage of 200 to 300 mg of quinine every night has not been shown to cause significant side effects. Nevertheless, quinine should be used in a small dose and cautiously, especially in the elderly and patients with renal failure, and should be avoided in patients with liver disease
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Quinine's controversial for sure. FDA came out with a warning that it shouldn't be used off label. Only indicated use is malaria. This page is too long for here. It has the FDA warning. Then a counterpoint from a physican that disagrees. This is from 2010
This is from a Medscape article in 2012. Identifies the complications reported to the FDA. The doc in the above article wated the FDA to produce the cases of complaints so they could be evaluated as to severity. This article on Medscape does that.
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/771699
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Way back when, cardio said it was OTC, but no more. That's why he said a small juice glass of tonic water. I guess the amount of quinine in the water is small anyway prolly 20+ years he said that.
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Sassy - Thank you for the chart. On 2 beta blockers (Timolol and Metoprolol). Some leg cramps that I blame always on Letrozole.
Storm update - tornado touchdown in N Ft Worth. Ripped part of roof off 3 story bank building. I was out with neighbors' GD talking goats. I think this is going to be a nasty evening. PTL DH gets home in about 15 minutes. 16 chasers out from MO to just south of me.
Lovely picture Mags and Beatmon. Yummers Mexican Food.
Be back later.
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Hi all, I don't get on much. Apologize for that but think of you all and hope everyone is doing well.
I passed my 5 year cancer anniversary this year and finished taking Arimidex. My liver doc says we will be closely monitoring tumor in my liver to see if it grows now that Arimidex is over. This felt reassuring. Got news today, after 3 appeals with insurance company they will no longer cover my liver scans. Reason: I am no longer in active breast cancer treatment. Scans will only be approved if routine blood tests show any change in liver function. And liver function blood test can be ordered by regular primary doctor and not oncologist. Liver Doctor stated my blood tests always looked fine even with breast cancer and having liver tumor. It was with Petscans and MRI and CTs that doc could watch for changes in liver. So without scans, my liver doc can not see me. Looks like after 5 years of bc,we are in the hands of primary doc. Very frustrating. Had to vent.
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This article from WebMD is about potassium and magnesium. It describes about taking potassium and magnesium supplements. It's better than standard drug handouts.
http://www.webmd.com/heart-disease/heart-failure/treatment-supplements
This article is okay. Not sure who Dr. Sinatra is, but I couldn't see anything in the article that was harmful. His approach is to obtain potassium and magnesium from diet. The foods high in magnesium are also in the list for good bowel working. We just looked at that the other day on the constipation thread. So, that's a plus. Actually, the high magnesium things he identifies are great foods. Many nutrients.
http://www.heartmdinstitute.com/heart-matters/drugs-surgery/cardio-drugs-review/274-diuretics
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I know when I took Tamoxifen, I had a lot of trouble with leg-cramps.... and someone told me about Magnesium.... I'm probably the only one in the world that broke out in a rash from Magnesium.... So anything new that you take, can cause stupid reactions in some people....
We are going to see that wily Theresa tomorrow.... How FUN that she is back from wherever she was! Yes, a bunch of you SAID that it could be that UTI !
I remember one time I went for a physical, and the Doc said I had one of those.... no symptoms.... How do you get them, and how would you know something was wrong? ONE time I KNEW I had SOMEthing wrong, because when I just went to pee, I almost flew straight up to the ceiling! Now THAT hurt! It's funny that some infection like that can throw things out of whack!
Janie was just here, working on one of those "books"... ! Their vacation to California, and she is arranging the pictures with some program, into a "book" online, and then they make it, and send it to you! Have any of you done this? WHAT A JOB!!! Been here 2 days, and still organizing the pictures she up-loaded from her phone, to put in this book! What patience!
The Dentist is making my lower "partial!" The "frame" really feels TIGHT! Took more impressions of my upper plate, then Tuesday he checks a fit with "wax" teeth?? in it, then the "real" partial will be finished..... I'll have teeth all over the place!
Okay little friends! Thanks for always being there! xoxo
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Paws, I just mentioned your name to someone yesterday. She has iron infusions. Here's the link to her thread.
https://community.breastcancer.org/forum/6/topics/836482?page=1#idx_2
Glad you are here. What kind of liver tumor? Did we know that? How's the iron? Obamacare sucks. How's your furbabies? Done with school? Feeling good, even with the trouble?
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pawprint, sorry the ins co is poo poo. My switched to what I can have, but cause of that we won't see transition as soon as before. They don't do us any favors, and it will cost them more in the long run if they don't catch it early. Makes no sense.
I have nothing to add with all this nurse talk. I can talk about hair...lol
Have fun tomorrow Chevster:)
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LMG, I didn't know that the beta blockers could cause cramps. The article really was nice. I'd post it in the med rom. I used to post drug families on the walls. Made it easier for the nurses. Especially newbies.
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thank you Susan3...I'm with you, I have nothing to add with nurse talk, but I can't even talk hair!!
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Sheesh Paws What Insurance do you have? What's the maintenance lab protocol--(tests)? What kind of tumor?
Chevy have oodles of fun tomorrow? Give her big hugs from us all
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Pawprint- congrats on reaching your 5 years and being done with the AIs. But given you have something that needs to be watched, that is not good news you won't be able to have that tumor watched. I can see the scans not being done if that was not there, but seriously? Can you appeal the insurance?
I had lots of questions for the MO's office this year about the liver. They told me they used the liver enzymes to trigger any scans as it is usually the first thing that happens before they can feel anything. She did an interesting exam where they said the liver "drops" if there is a problem. She could not feel anything upon exam and my enzymes ended up being normal. Hard to know what to watch for around this?
If your PCP is your new go to person, I hope he or she will keep on top of the blood work with you. We are our own best advocates, and I push my concerns with my docs when I see them.
Okay to vent any time! Nice to see you here.
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Thanks Sass and Lvgoats- I didn't know what to make of lighter colored ascites fluid and more of it. Then increased liver labs a week before and back to normal a week after... WTH? My MO ran tumor markers so we can take a peekee poo and see what direction they are headed. The pain in my hips is a little bit better as long as I don't walk too much, but the over all gut issues feels worse. Hmmm The alkphos I would think is from rads and bone mets. I take Maxide (combo diuretic) and it works fine. I add lasix when I get poofy.
Susan hope this new med works for you. Pawprint I am confused. Are you a stage 1 or stage 4 patient? Did you have a liver lesion diagnosed as mets? I can't imagine insurance not monitoring that. How can they just drop it and call it good. Do tumor markers corespond to your scans? They are not expensive tests to run and if they work for you it might be a every 6 month option for peace of mind.
Sassy I hopewhat ails you is from post polio syndrome. Mags nice photo of you two and a yummy lunch. Chevy fabulous news about Theresa!
Be well.
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I'm such an idiot----------------- CONGRATULATIONS PAWPRINT!!!!!!!!
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Hi Rose- I hope you are feeling better. Is the pain from the rads easing?
Going into the 20s tonight. Blast o winter here today.
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Spookie, that's it. When I was teaching, the standard joke among the coordinators was "what are we teaching this year". Not everything changes that fast, but it gave me a cautious outlook to always take a look to see if somethings changed before I put my foot in my mouth. My OCD just doesn't do well with my foot in my mouth. Oh yeah, 12 years of nuns and three years of Jesuit ghosts hanging around in my brain doesn't make things easy.
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MemaSue - I hope that stuff bypasses your house. We only had a few minutes of intense rain, no hail. I see it's still trudging across the northern suburbs.
Pawprint - congratulations on 5 years. Load of malarkey about the no scans. "So without the scans, the liver doctor cannot see me" Whose rule is that? Not to stir the pot, but even without the scans I would sure feel better in spec. hands with a known liver tumor of whatever variety it is. What do they believe it is?
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Sas, huh? Changes?
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Storm's here! Pawprint, may I share your story?
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Y'all stay safe!! Hit the basement or storm cellar.
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Oh my, Chevy, I had thought Miss Theresa might be better after her UTI cleared up, but wow, what a turnaround. So glad you two can talk again!
I'd heard of spironolactone for female hirsutism, but it was just a few days ago that I read that it was something to avoid if you have estrogen positive breast cancer. It seems like there are a lot of things to watch out for when you are trying to avoid estrogen. I think I have a lot of reading to do over the next couple months to get up to speed on this.
Mags, great photo. I love flan, hope you enjoyed your meal!
Pawprint, congratulations! I'm confused by your insurance companies stance, and not sure it makes much sense.
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Rosie posie, not on new treatment yet. Prob with new test, can't get neck and noses checked out as often. New testing can be dangerous if overused on neck area. Neck are shows first. Kinda like to see it there before vital organ. I'm kinda like that, you know.
Test a couple weeks ago show stable in all the areas, but these last couple weeks i feel pain in neck nodes again. Haven't told anyone yet. They all worry too much. Now with a baby coming, I might hold back information.
Night night ladies
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sleep well all0 -
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Susan,you'll tell the doctor right?
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Oh my!! The playground monitor worked overtime today. There is lack of comparative studies and data with Bumex which is also a loop diuretic. I think that makes it tricky to draw conclusions for using Bumex over Lasix. Docs like evidence based recommendations. Bumex might not be on a lot of hospitals' or insurances'formulary. Just my guess.
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