Taxotere, Carboplatin and Herceptin
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Gramma Thank you dear for your wise words I am sure not giving up a good steak or butter so I will keep the Herceptin coming and not worry so much.Knowledge is great I also believe to much reading or research can panic you,thats why everyone here such wonderful help,we are all on the same page real life experiences from those who have been there,and ones going through it now. I feel so comfortable about my Dx since I have found you all,You are such beautiful angels.I do have faith in God he is with me always I know that.I was blessed to find my cancer early I will be on this earth for a long time,Thanks be to God 0 -
My2boys: No I had TCH for the 6 rounds which was about 1.5 hours each TX cause they had to do each bag seperately. Now I am on H alone to finish off the year. So if I started in June and had 6 months of both I now continue on with H only to June of this year. This is what I meant by doing H for a year. It takes the same length of time just for the H as it did for the TCH together. That is what I am saying about it being 90 minutes. Now each onc is different so if they say yours is 45 then good for you. I don't take anything cause there is no SE's all but a slight headache and I take Tyenol at the infusion.
Rockstarmom: You will continue to get a MUGA every three months until you finish the Herceptin. They keep a close watch on you to make sure it isn't huring your heart. Don't worry about the heart issue. It will be ok. I have a weak heart too and have done well with H.
It was so nice to see Cinrae come in and check up on her campers. When I leave I am sure I will come back in too to see how everyone is doing. I'm not ready to leave my campers yet though. Even if I don't post I still check up on how you all are doing.
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My TCH went the same as Anne's. On my first tx, it took forever!!. I was told that with the first Herceptin, they put it in really slow to make sure you don't have a reaction and then speed it up for the remainder of the tx's if you are OK with it. I needed to go in for extra fluids after #4, so from there on, I just requested 2 bags with the tx. Will I need extra fluid with Herceptin too?
For my first 4 tx's, I sat next to a lady that was nearing the end of her Herceptin only and she was in and out in an hour and a half total time. That was blood work, getting hooked up, the infusion, etc. She said it was a walk in the park.
Cupcake: I did not watch the Herceptin movie when it came out. Back then I was being all pissy because the leading lady got to keep her hair
. I would love to watch it now. I honestly feel that if Herceptin had been approved 3 years earlier, I would still have my mom.Paula: If your heart started off in good shape, you should be OK. Heart disease runs rampant in my family. I am the ONLY one not to be diagnosed with it by 40. My first MUGA was great and the second one was unchanged. If it will ease your mind, ask for a referral to a cardiologist. No one will argue with you.
Cinrae: Thanks for keeping tabs on your campers. It really means something.
I am guilty of trying to rush things this time - imagine that. I am trying hard to behave and keep it slow for a few days. My body is doing a great job of letting me know when I have crossed the line! There is so much I want to get done and do. I need to make a priority list. So far, I have more scheduled thru the Fall than anyone person can possibly do. I am sure that is a mental thing, kinda of like a post-traumatic stress thing. I am going to need to get a handle on that! I have been saying for months that cancer is NOT for control freaks!
Have a great evening campers.
Lisa
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I was just wondering if others have problems with burning eyes. I had my first TX on January 28, and just in the last 2 days my eyes have been burning like crazy.
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Lisa: That is funny...cancer is NOT for control freaks. That made me laugh..... Made me stop and think why I had such a hard time with it cause I AM a control freak. One lesson the Lord has really taught me through all this is patience and faith. It is hard for us control people to let go, but in this you have to. For sure my list is stacked up, but I am thinking of me first...wow what a concept. I rest and if anything left over then.................Absolute on H being earlier and your mom still being here. I thank God everyday my cancer came at this time in my life, if it had to, and I can have Herceptin.
Carolyn: Thanks for the input on rads. I sure wished I was at the end. I intend to box of everything that says cancer and put it all in a neat little pretty satan box with a ribbon on it and put it away. This has been an experience, but I am ready to move on.
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Lisa, it is funny that you are from my area. i moved back here in 2005 after being gone since 1970. It has changed a bit but still basically the same! The weather here has been horible all winter ahd I can't wait for Spring.Cabell Huntington Hospital now has a cancer center and that is where I am receiving treatment. They are really pretty good and I have alot of confidence in them especially after reading what every one on this board is going thru.
To continue the TCH discussion:
I have TCH every thiree weeks , just finished #4 on Monday. I have Herceptin every week and it takes about an hour. My onc said I will have it every 3 weeks following chemo until a year is up! The heceptin is not bad just causes headache the first day!
The good news is that after this last tx I have not had nearly as bad se's as before! So don't worry if you are just starting...things get better and the anxiety is reduced!
I am having a 2nd Muga next week and am hoping that all is well. My mom has heart issues and I sure would not want to have them too. I try to exercise every day and am starting a meditation course. Everything helps, I guess.
Enjoy your night,
Maja Carolyn (since we have another Carolyn )0 -
Day 2....wow! I started out ok...no problems. Went to work, already had plenty of help lined up for what I need to get done, but by 3 I was faiding fast! I did get approval to get a B12 shot, but still came home climbed into bed and was out like a light. No nasuea...thank goodness, but the fatigue....I cant get over that.
Happy Valentines to all!!! Hope you have a wonderful day!
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Maja: Yes, Huntington has changed alot. I was born there in 1964 and my family moved to Fla in 1969 and I have been here every since. But like I said, I do still have alot of family there. I love the hills, but don't think I could live there now! Too cold!!! And I can't drive in the winter weather - I am a Fla girl now!
Good luck with your treatments, you are almost finished!
Lisa
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Smile: Thinking of you tonight. You have the weekend so rest, rest, rest. Fatique will get better every day for you, but the worst day you just have to lay still and know tomorrow will come. Just hang in there sweetie.
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Cupcake: Yes, this is NOT for us control freaks. That is part of what has been so hard for me. Being told what to do, when to do and how to do. And being told that I CANNOT do something - not good. But we are nearing the end!!!! We can go back to being our ole control freaky selves soon!!!! Yippee!
Smile: Never feel guilty about going to bed. I had to learn that. You will be better off in the long run. Sleep tight.
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I've been on Herceptin for almost 3 years now.
From what I understand, the first dose is a longer infusion time because some people have an adverse reaction DURING INFUSION with the first dose ONLY if it flows too quickly. After that, they run the standard time (60 to 90 mins.) for a 3 week infusion. Time also depends on your weight and how much Herceptin is in the bag. Also, I find when you're on a pump it takes longer than when it drips "free flow". I've known ladies who were in a hurry to leave the hospital who will "speed up" the infusion so they can get out of there faster. I know that sometimes when there aren't any more pumps and the nurse runs my iv without one, she pretty much gauges the speed. If it runs too quickly, I start to get heart palpitations and will often slow it down myself. Some people tend to tolerate the faster speed better than others. Faster flow = shorter infusion. Also, if you're on a weekly dose and move to a 3 week dose, they'll run the first infusion slower once again for the reasons noted above.
I've also been told that the drug itself is just a small dose that they dilute heavily in fluid (can't remember if it's saline). In some countries they give it "straight up" without dilution. WOW!
I may be wrong on this but it's what I've heard.
Happy Valentine's Day everyon!
Cheryl.
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my 2boys: You will be monitored. That is something that your mom and grandmother did not have. Please don't worry until there is reason. You have enough on your plate. Herceptins heart issues are resolvable and will repair when your finished. In the mean time they will watch you like a hawk.
Interestingly my onc. last TX (Monday) said that they are considering more than just a year for early stage. I will know before my year is up. As I will be finished around December 2009 with herceptin on the original plan. I think that the first two years are the most significant as far as recurrence is concerned. In some new study (not sure which one, will find out.) A longer herceptin treatment has significantly reduced recurrence. HMMM interesting. I will keep you posted as to the actual findings. Right now it was mentioned off the cuff.
Day 6 after tx 3 and am once more amongst the living. Just in time to celebrate Valentine's Day!!
I love it! I decorated my house. It is filled with flowers and hearts.Red Glitter and Felt. It is going to be a day to celebrate love. Not just romantic but the love we have for one another. I believe it is in the feeling of love that the healing is. So let the love fest begin.
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Cheryl. it sounds as if you have the most experience with herceptin. Do they continue to do Muga scans every 3 months? How are your results?I hope that you have a Very Happy Valentines Day!
Eat lots of chocolate......yum
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Bold - My oncologist told me the same thing that yours did about the possibility of being on herceptin for more than the one year. She just mentioned this the other day. She said that I may hear something before my year is up (she said in about 6 months). I told her that I hope I know before I give up my port!
Cupcake - I hope that the only side effect I get from the herceptin alone is a headache. That is something that I can definitely handle. Without the pre-meds, it is just a "wait and see". It sure gets confusing when we all compare our notes on how these meds are being delivered. Each case is very different, although VERY similar at the same time! The important thing is that we are getting the medicine that we need.
Lisa - It sounds like your regimen and mine are identical. My first herceptin was about an hour or ninety minutes and then after that first time, they shortened it to (I think 30 or 45 minutes). It goes by very quickly. They told me that without my extra fluids, I could be done in less than an hour, but I think I will continue with the fluids. They can't hurt me and they seem to help with SE's.
Paula - The reason I get extra fluids is because I was having a bit of a hard time with side effects. My bloodwork was showing some slight elevations in the creatinine levels. This is the level that shows how your kidneys are functioning. My doctor had to lower my carboplatin dose and up my fluids to flush my kidneys better and as a result, my blood levels returned to normal. I found that my SE's were better tolerated when I had the extra fluids, so I just kept requesting them and it seems to be working out just fine now. As far as the MUGA scans for my heart. Mine dropped from the mid 70's to the mid 60's, but my doctor wasn't too concerned yet. She will have me tested more than the normal 3 months, but she is confident that I'm doing just fine.
I hope that you all enjoy your evening.
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Evening Ladies! I have a new name for myself: She who crows to loud, feels like kaa kaa on day 6! I have felt like absolute crap today. I started off OK. Spent some time at the sewing machine, nothing major. Started to feel real tired around 1pm. Had to meet friends at the barn by 3:30 and start my chores. I barely got the animals in; I closed the last stall door and had to lay down in a lawn/lounge chair for a 1/2 hour to catch my breath! My friends arrived and did the rest of my work for me. I think my blood counts are taking a nose dive. If this keeps up, I will be calling the doc 1st thing Monday for blood work.
Helen: Yep, burning eyes is a common s/e. Get some "artificial tear" eyedrops. That helped me a lot.
I need sleep. I just broke down and took something. I have only slept one night this week. Hopefully I will be down for the count soon.
Night-night Campers!
Lisa
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Just wanted to say HI and happy valentines. I have had my second treatment now and am worried aboutmouth sores. does anyone have any advice. I got alot last time and would like to avoid them.It is good to have a group of people to talk to and read the different posts.I dont feel so alone.I hope everyone had a great day .Katherine
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Hi Katherine - Since I am still wide awake, I will answer. I never got them. I swear by the Biotene Toothpaste and mouthwash. Regular toothpaste is just too harsh during chemo. My mom got them while she was in chemo and the doc gave her a prescription mouth swab and rinse, but I don't remember what the name of either was. I think keeping your fluids up and avoiding acidic foods helps too. If you did not get them on tx#1, you are probably safe if you stay away from regular toothpaste.
Lisa
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katherine ask your onc about the mouth rinse. I never had to use it because I never had any mouth sores but I have heard it works very well.
Lisa, woman you need to go to bed! haha You have been so rev'd up since your last tx. I am jealous of your energy level. I crashed after tx #6.
I am doing my last week of rads this week!! I am soo excited. We are doing the "boosts" to the tumor area and scar tissue. My last one is Feb 24 but it is only 7 tx's away.....:)
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Just a short note from me. I was so tired all day.
Helen, my eyes were dry some of the time. Saline drops (artificial tears) like Lisa said. I prefer to use the ones that come in single use vials because they don't have preservatives.
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Hello there! May I make a reservation to join Camp Chemo?
I will be starting my 5-day radiation treatment on Monday, Feb 16, then I go back to my surgeon the following week to be handed off to the medical oncologist. I had my lumpectomy with sentinel node biopsy on Jan 19. I am trying to gather knowledge about my next step. I am projecting that I will follow the TCH protocol.
I have several questions in preparation for meeting with my medical oncologist:
1. Why do ER and PR negative tumors need taxotere and carboplatin?
2. I am 52 years old and postmenopausal does TCH cause hot flashes with postmenopausal women? Returning to the verge of spontaneous combustion is far more upsetting than the realization that I am going to lose my hair.
3. I read that some have needed blood transfusions. Is there an opportunity to donate and store your own blood should this be necessary?
4. I understand that each person reacts differently to the drugs, but I was wondering if it is possible to adjust your treatment schedule so the most taxing days can fall on the weekend? I am an elementary school tutor and would prefer not to be with the students on the days when I am most fatigued.
5. Continuing with the idea of adjusting the treatment for patient comfort, can dosages be reduced if the side effects are too uncomfortable? I seem to have a decent tolerance for pain; however, I have the chemical tolerance of a child. Any thoughts or suggestions for this?
6. Lots of comments about losing hair, but what about weight gain? I have no doubt my hair will grow back, not so sure about extra weight coming off!
Thank you ladies for your willingness to share your experiences and calm the nerves of the novice campers.
Cheers!
Cloud
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Traci, Have no fear - I crashed!! Yesterday at about 1pm - boom like a bomb! I finally went to sleep last night about 10:30 and slept until 7:30 this morning. I think I feel better today, but it is too early to tell. I haven't moved around enough yet. The weather is so nice here this weekend, I really want ot ride my horse, but we shall see. Yesterday that would have been a very foolish move, even if I could have lifted the saddle - which I couldn't
. One million congrats on the last week of rads. We've come a looong wayyy baaaby...................!Blue, Sorry to hear you have been in crash mode too this this week. Hope you wake up feeling better today.
Cloud, Welcome to the group that no one wants to belong too. Sorry you have to be here, but I am glad you found us. I can't answer all of your questions, but I can help with some. What I miss, I am sure others will fill in for you.
2. I was very pre-menaposal (44) when I was dx'ed. I was already experiencing some hot flashes, but not anything like what the TCH causes. It is my understanding that many post-menni ladies do go back to the hot flashes. Carolyn will let you know!
3. Needing a blood transfusion during treatment is very common. If your doc says you need one, don't argue, you will feel so much better. However, I don't think you will get the opportunity to bank your own blood. Unfortunately, this is not like a planned surgery, time is not on your side. The docs probably will not want you to lose any blood now because that would cause you to go into tx with a depleted supply, thus setting you up to need what was just removed. I banked blood for a surgery back in the early 90's, but I had 2 months to do it while waiting on my insurance company. These days, we don't have to worry about tainted blood like we did even 10 years ago. If you need blood, I am sure you can rely on the local blood source to be safe.
4. As for adjusting the tx's for your work schedule, you won't know how your reaction times and s/e's are until you have had a treatment. I too am a teacher and I thought I had it all worked out. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't. The best advice I can give you is to stay home and lay low for the first 5 to 7 days after a tx. That worked best for me. Chances are your tx's will be 3 weeks apart (that seems to be the most common). I got my tx on a Monday and took it easy that week, then I was usually fine for the next 2 weeks until the next tx. When I did not rest that first week, I felt crappy into the second week. That was my experience, I am sure the other ladies will give you theirs too.
6. Weight gain: I lost weight. I went into this at about 133 and came out at 120. With every tx I would loose about 8 to 10 pounds in the first 12 days, then gain back at least half or more in the last 10 days. I lost the most and regained the least with the first tx and then it kinda of leveled out. However, most of the weight that stayed off is undoubtedly MUSCLE!!! Not good. For me the muscle atrophy has been horrendous. I was a very active person prior to dx and it will take a while for me to get my normal muscle back. And I am not talking "gym fit" muscle. I mean everyday task muscle for my world. Having said that, on the weeks you feel good, try to get some exercise, even if it is only a walk around the block. However, when you are tired, take a nap, you will need it. I know that is contradictory, but you will understand once you start the tx's.
Again, I am so sorry that you are joining our camp. But you have found the right group of people to help you thru. Good luck, God Bless and we are here for you.
Lisa
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I'm a newbie to TCH Chemo Camp too! I started a new thread for us newbies, but I've learned lots on this one! Thank you, thank you, thank you to all who are helping us get through it!
I had my first chemo last Thurs and thought I was ready, but at the last minute I got really anxious and down that morning before going in. The friend who was going to take me had come down with the stomach flu and she tried to get a replacement, but I figured I could make it in as my DD would be picking me up in the afternoon. I called my son to at least come have lunch with me during chemo and he said sure and asked if I was ok and I burst out crying, while saying yes, I'm ok. He said I'm coming to get you. We walked in together and then the staff was soooo friendly that it totally put me in a different mood. So I was fine! He sat through the 1-1/2 hr information session, while I got my IV. We were laughing by then and in a good mood, so the nurse warned him that I'd get ‘chemo brain', but to tell the family not to laugh out loud when I forgot things.
I love that port--didn't feel a thing! Jeff went back to work after the info session and they took me back to the chemo room, where I was informed by the other pts (about 4) that I was joining the ‘cool' group. They were all so friendly!
I've been on a sterioid high (daguther Angela says it's like I'm on speed). Only got 4 hrs sleep Friday night and was still wound up all day Saturday. But that was perfect because Angela helped me clean out my whole pantry and we had our ‘wig party.'
The wig party was fun-- ANY excuse to have a party, you know? A couple relatives went with me and while we were at the wig shop, an older woman came in by herself. She had breast cancer 5 yrs ago and wanted a wig as her hair hasn't been the same since chemo. Poor thing is having a hard time, her husband died in December unexpectedly and she started tearing up. We all gave her big hugs (several times) and by the time she left she had a smile on her face. I invited her to my weekly Red Hat Happy Hour (dinner). I'll call her today.
My nurse told me to rinse with baking soda and water at LEAST 4x per day--preferably 10--to prevent mouth sores.
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Welcome Denali - Yes, you ARE on a steroid high!
Sorry you are here, but we are hapy you found us. Each treatment gets a little less scary. You have already founds ways to help others and that is great. If each of us comes out of this a better person, then this will be a great world we live in. Hang tough and don't forget to rest once the steroids wear off.Lisa
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There is a baking soda mouthwash called Tom's that has been suggested to me--just found some at Kroger. Also, my onc suggested a saline rinse 3X a day. I have not had any problems except for a tiny bump on my tongue.
I am post menopausal and have had no hot flashes since my first and only TX. My weight has stayed basically the same since all food still tastes good. So far I have not been tired--the opposite is true for me--I would never sleep without Ambien.
My husband can't understand why I am spending so much time on the computer, but this site is amazing. Thanks for all of the support and advice.
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Good Morning fellow campers! Yesterday wasn't too bad. Started the day of cleaning a bit, then went Patio furniture shopping, but by the end of the day I was done! Steroid rush was over. Today I am aching a bit from that shot, but a nice HOT bath and Motrin seemed to help. I am just thankful I have not had any nausea (That is the worst for me, other than the shots). I am however getting that cold that seems to linger here in the south. Throat scratchy and no voice...I am assuming it is okay to take sinus medicine. Any thoughts????
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Cloud- I am postmenopausal and did not get hot flashes with chemo. However, my C was Cytoxan. I had tx on Fri and took Monday off because that was my crash day. As far as ER/PR, that determines whether of not you take an anti-hormone after Chemo ( Tamoxifen/Arimidex...) I did gain 15lbs and am in the process of taking it back off now. I never needed transfusions or the Neulasta shot.
I had Mammo-site radiation which was a breeze. Good luck!
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Cloud,
Taxotere and carboplatin interfere with the cell dividing. When they stop the cells from successfully dividing, the cells die. Herceptin is an antibody to the HER2+ receptors on our cancers but it works best when used with chemo drugs. Generally HER2+ cancer is aggressive so TC (or another chemo) is given in addition to Herceptin regardless of ER/PR receptor status.
I'm post menopausal and I didn't get any hot flashes from TCH.
Unfortunately, as Linda mentioned it is difficult to predict what your good and bad days will be. Quite a few of us are fine for the first couple of days after chemo and crash on day 3 or 4, but some of us have different cycles. My worst time is usually days 5-8.
They may reduce your drugs if it is medically necessary. But your onc would probably also look at whether there is something else you can be given that would fix the issue without reducing your dosage. For example, my white cell count went very low the first chemo so my oncologist prescribed Neupogen to stimulate white cell creation for the rest of chemo. For the last couple of cycles my onc reduced my carboplatin because my platelets were going down so low. As far as discomfort, other than tiredness, it hasn't been that bad. I think they would be more likely to try to address the symptom if the problem was discomfort like changing anti-nausea drugs.
Cycles 1 through 4, my weight would go down mid-cycle and then come back up. My weight on my pre-chemo check was surprisingly consistant - within a pound of where it started. I think that the mid-cycle drop was probably mostly water. Cycle 5 I had a harder time - some nausea lasting into the 3rd week - I lost 7 pounds that cycle.
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What about smell changes? It seems to me that my husband smells different to me since chemo--is that common?
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It is sad to me that this forum just keeps going with new people all the time. The good news is that we truly care and have some insight and real advice. I know that I read every thread when I was first dx. I learned from each woman's strengths and weaknesses. I was able to replace fear with knowledge. I like that and still do. I am starting to think about rads even though I am only halfway through. I want to find out about the proton inhibitor. It is so targeted and dense. Or maybe the radiation seeds. Anybody hear anything good or bad about such things.
The whole menopause issue is a bit dicey. You need to know what your Estrodial count is. Even if you have had a period of flashes. The reason I say this that I have not had a period in 10 years. Went through a very violent 5 years of night sweats hot flashes. and mood swings. I thought I was wayyyyy done. Well according to my test I still have 36% left in my system which means I am per-menopausal. go figure. The Chemo treatment may knock the rest out of me. We will retest at the conclusion. What a world.
Lisa: You crack me up. Don,t worry the worst is over. Before long you can get back to being the over achiever you were born to be.
in solidarity
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Bold: For sure is just seems like a swinging door doesn't it. I remember when I first came in and then there was a time my mentors left and we became the mentors to you, and now you will become the mentors (camp counselors) to Denali and Cloud and the others that are new.
Denali:I hope you stay with us. Was there a reason you began a new thread? You are on your way to learning how your TX will effect you. Sounds like you have some interesting things going on with the parties. The first TX is so hard cause you don't know what to expect. I actually thought I would start throwing up right off the bat and would be so embarrassed. Sure did learn it wasn't going to be that way. I agree with you that the staff in Oncology are the most wonderful people in the world.
Smile: Need to check with your personal onc on meds but I remember many in here that had colds and took meds for them. I was really strick to stay away from crowds and sick people while I was on chemo and dodged the bullet and never came down with anything until after it was over, got lax and ended up with two colds...
Cloud: Welcome to Camp Chemo. No reservations needed in here. I never had any weight gain, or even a rise in my blood glucose numbers until my #6 last chemo and now I am seeing it come on. I think my biggest problem is I need to eat more high caloric foods for healing and so tired it is hard to exercise. That is for me. Some in here exercise all through the treatments but for me I just wind down to a snail crawl and I did so good before my DX. So well I lost 67 pounds. Some loose weight, some gain. Could be because the hormones are all whacked out. You are so reversed than me. I first had chemo , then surgery, then radiation. Like my2boys said there is so many different ways of delivering the treatment. Yes on the question of your dosage. Your oncologist will watch you closely and if will tweek your TCH to the dose you can tolerate. Also with your nausea meds. I started with Zofran which works for most, but didn't work for me so she switched me to Emend which I never experienced nausea again the rest of the treatments. Many in here worked all week and had there treatments on a Wednesday and went down on Saturday. Like Blue said each is different on when their days are, but mine was fine on day one, two and then three started going down, and by four I was out of it and then started coming back. Day 10 I was fine. Again you will know a couple of treatments when your down days will be but go ahead and shoot for day 3 of going down, you never know. Keep a calendar of happy and sad faces on your days so you can look back and you will see a pattern emerge and that will be yours. I never needed blood transfusions, but something on storing blood you could ask your onc. I only had mouth sores one treatment and used Magic Mouth Wash (prescription) and it worked fine. My worst was the fatigue and that is universal, can't get around that, although there is a rare case that pops up that breezes through TX with no S.E's . You have a great bunch of women in here that has so much knowledge to help you. They have begun and adjusting, but was just as scared as you when they first came in. There is Head counselor on meds Blue, and the older campers Carolyn and Cupcake, and ones that have earned their badges and just about...Lisa, my2boys, Helen, Rockstarmom, Katherine, Cheryl and Plakatakr. You will be bunking in the cabin with Smile, Maja and Denali.
The worst is the unknown, but once you start you will be fine. How are you doing on your Radiation so far? How long to go?
Well Daytona is about to start and I am a NASCAR fan along with hubby so gonna go pop some popcorn and get ready to settle in to a good race. Hope your all having a wonderful day...there is life after chemo....Me? Popcorn? up watching TV, who would have thought...lol
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