Can we have a forum for "older" people with bc?
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OMG! MEEMERS! You are going to actually MEET this guy! I'll go with you! Better yet, me and Cammi, will arrange an appointment with him, and check this "dream" out, and let you know if we should let you go or not.
He probably has facial hair, with a beard down to his hairy chest. Make him keep his clothes on. We don't want no mini meemers running around. No Sir.
He has probably forgotten he even talked to you by now.... DAMN! But go anyway.... send us a picture of this.... um sex maniac, and let's check him out. 8 kids, eh? Don't know how to keep it zipped, right? Well, maybe he does now.... Just don't let him near you.... he sounds volatile to me....
Cammi...he doesn't even drive..... forgets where he is going.... he will forget her name before he even meets her. We have to keep tabs on this whole scenario. So does this mean he has a chauffeur? Oh, so you will have someone to tie you up, while he tries to find you? This is getting scarier by the minute.
Take your Daughter with you.... we are getting a little alarmed by all this.
And Cammi....Me too! If they couldn't think I was the best looking one of all the rest, then they didn't deserve even a glance. I was just introverted, and helpless, and not a happy person in high school... not in ANY of my schools.... because I don't remember even GOING to school! That concussion and amnesia thing you know...
So after I got over all of THAT, I came out of my shell, after I met my DH.... and I lived happily ever after.... I DID see someone I thought I was in the throes of everlasting bliss one time, and it was GREAT for awhile, but man, when reality sweeps in, it can change those feelings into absolutely a nightmare pretty darned quick.
So don't go putting all your eggs in one basket little meemers.... just pat him on his little head, and say, yes..... I remember you.... so long cowboy!
Morning Di! You want one? Send me your address.... send me a PM.... I thought I already ASKED you guys if anyone wanted one! But yes.... I make pole dancin' boa's...Ha!
Now it's time for coffee.... You guys want to come over for a cup? We'll talk about meemers, and this meet-up.
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Often, we are harder on ourselves than others are. If we cannot
forgive ourselves, how can we forgive other people? Everyone's lesson is to forgive ourselves for our mistakes, even those things we feel ashamed about, and learn to accept ourselves for who we are, knowing that we can always gently work on making improvements. For me, the true experience of inner peace began only once I was able to forgive those around me, my parents, and myself.
Patrick Wanis0 -
Hi Barbarella. I've just recently found this group myself. It is good that talking here gave you direction for finding someone who may be able to help. I'm 12 years out from tx and with the physical changes over that time, am thinking about getting a consult because the changes are becoming so uncomfortable for me to deal with.
Hope all goes well,
A.A.
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Hi everyone
Been keeping up with reading the posts, but was having too much fun with my granddaughter to write anything myself. She is at such a cute age. I was only there for 3 days, had to come back yesterday for annual GYN visit today and PET scan and ECH tomorrow. Gonna be a long weekend waiting for results of PET scan. But, back to Lucia- she reminds me so much of my oldest daughter at that age- always smiling, always active, very inquisitive and stating to really communicate. My relationship with her is so different than with my other 5 grandchildren because of the distance. With the others, I was a major part of their lives, pretty much on a daily basis, not so with Lucci. She was friendly enough with me, but definitely preferred Mommy or Daddy, especially when tired or after a fall. But yesterday morning, she ran right in to my arms when I came downstairs, and was giving me kisses without my asking for them. She also let me feed her some breakfast...and I had to leave. I waited until she went in for a nap to leave. Her mom asked if I wanted to wait till she got up, but I said if I did that, then I'd want to wait till her afternoon nap, then till she had dinner, etc, and Anna said "you'd just end up staying till she graduates HS, right?" I said I sure would. But I have decided to go over again before I head back to Fl.
Only other news I have at this point is that SpongeDoug finally found a house to rent. Of course, he is already asking to borrow our new lawn mower to cut the yard, which is shin high. I told Tracy he will have to come get it, and return during one of Tim's work shifts, and if anything happens to it, he will have to repair or replace it. I also told her to ask him if he wants the money for the mower Tim threw away ( $120) or if he wants us to buy him the cheapest mower Home Depot has. I am not spending $400 to replace a 15 year old mower that didn't work anyway.
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Hello AlaskaAngel,
I can not believe your history and treatment. From what I know of my history we basically have had the same cancer and have received the same treatment. I am just getting my records to find out the specifics of mine. They sent it to the Mayo but not to me & I had to reorder them for myself. I have no idea what er/pr & her is. I would have liked to have known my specifics before my appointment. I was never given the opportunity at the time to know all the specifics, as in seeing the reports. Also I don't know why, but 20 years ago they just didn't do it. It was a different time and almost frowned upon. If I had known more I would have probably done things differently. But I am very blessed with the years the treatment I chose has given me.
I am very grateful as there are many more women with this disease who have had a more difficult time than I. But I would like to share what my life has been like for these 20 years. In the beginning everything was good. I was somewhat equal in size even after the lumpectomy and the radiation. No complications with the radiation but I had to have extra radiation treatments. I wore a bra with a small prosthesis. As the years went on both breasts looked very different with extreme size differences. I had one perky & one grandma breast. For the last 5 or so years I can not wear a bra because of the size difference. I try to find clothes that hide the extreme difference in appearance. Subsequently I do not go out often, as it has affected my self-esteem. Also being over weight has been a challenge and made the matter worse. I wonder if there is someone else who has felt the same embarrassment as I do every day. Every time I go out it's the same ritual, my husband telling me which outfit shows the least and looks passable. I now have shooting pains in my chest but I have learned to deal with that. Today I am so excited about going to see Dr. Michel Saint-Cyr at the Mayo, & hopefully ending this 20 year bad dream. The only thing I want now is to walk into a room full of people with my head held high and my shoulders held straight & tall.
Thanks Barb
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Hi ladies hope everyone is doing well
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Barb, glad to hear that you are seeing a specialist to fix a 20 year problem. Hope all your wishes are fulfilled!! Keep us posted.
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Barbarella,
Whether or not our history is identical, you and I are dealing with similar results. For a while my two breasts were not all that different but with time one has not drooped and the other has, to the point where you and I are pretty much doing the same things to cope with this problem. At first I could wear the structured bras I wore before diagnosis, but that is not possible any more. I changed to jog bras. But now, even those are very uncomfortable, and there is no way I can wear any top that is cool enough for summertime because of the growing distortion and extreme difference between them. It is getting worse. I am glad you have found someone who can help you with the problem.
My radiated breast also has fatty necrosis. I wonder how many of those who have had lumpectomies and radiation more recently will find themselves dealing with this too as time goes by.
A.A.
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Barbarella and Alaska Angel,
So glad to hear I'm not the only one dealing with the size difference problem. Today is my one year cancer free anniversary for which I'm extremely thankful but now want to be able to wear clothes without always putting on a blazer or sweater to try to hide the difference. My bs is referring me to a ps for a consult but won't be able to do anything for at least 6 months because there is still an area of concern on my last two mammograms. They think it is still a Seroma but want to be sure it is stable for at least the next six months! I'm heading to Arizona for the winter and don't know how to dress because I'm sure a blazer or sweater will be too hot down there. Luckily, we had a cooler than normal summer in Michigan and I was able to wear two layers of clothing. I guess I will have to look for something to stuff in my bra on the bad girl side. Any suggestions?
Jo
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They make partial prostheses. Possibly one of those would help? I saw them on the Metro Medical website. There's some kind of enhancer they sell at fabric stores. I didn't notice them because I had a MX and was looking for a replacer. A mastectomy store should have some suggestions if you have one available. I'm lucky here because we do have a great mx store started by a woman with BC and her daughters. Of course this won't help if you can't wear a bra at all. Women with bmx sometimes go flat and say no one seems to notice, so probably it's a bigger problem for you than for others.
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Wren,
Thanks, I will check out the web site. Not a whole lot to offer here in rural Michigan but heading to Tucson in the morning. They have every store imaginable so will look at both fabric stores and see if there is a mastectomy store in the phone book. I wear a bra and fill out the good girl side but the other side just makes a big wrinkle in the cup and is noticeable unless I wear two layers. I thought of stuffing with something but don't want things falling out and embarrassing me. Thanks for the ideas.
Jo
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Good Morning Ladies
I first wanted to say even tho I never had a lumpectomy my sister had a few (no cancer) and she had a terrible time with the shaping of her breasts cuz nothing was even--I think they are very hard to have and painful too and as u get older it doesn't help the situation. She was actually relieved (in a way) to have everything removed after she got cancer, even thos she didn't have recon she did manage to get bras that make her look good= All she had were dents in here breasts--so I kind of know what u'r talking about, personally I do wear a lot of scarves and mostly infinity scarves, helps a little cuz I don't wear any bra, it's just to uncomfortable.
Oh Chevy we have to go on ANOTHER undercover operation--not literally- Now we have to watch Mimi--Oh this is tiring taking care of everyone. Good thing u and I have the experience behind us--well I have a lot of behind--but being in the business we've been in we know lots. So Mimi u'll never see us but u might hear us, but never see us.
Again it's ging to take me all day to recover from yesterday hahaha, My HS GF's are still so sweet I don't know how we've always been such wonderful friend when I really think about it. They don't swear nothing and there I am still no filter and we LOLed so hard over nothing as usual. Then I realized what has kept us together all these yrs. We went there for lunch and my GF said u really didn't think I was going to make anything did u? And of course we knew she wouldn't so we warmed up and ate Deli food. That was delicious but we stayed until evening. So tired is a good word for me. hahaha
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It costs you nothing to make another happy - and you gain your true self through the act of spreading joy.
- Jonathan Lockwood Huie0 -
Cammie, I loved hearing your recitation of your day with the GF's. It is such a wonderful thing when you can be you and not have to mull over and filter everything you want to say. Nothing could ruin a good time more than having to mentally try out your sentence before you say it.
It is sort of like being able to be a little child and no one really criticizes you or makes you wrong for your EXACT feelings -- they just enjoy allowing you to express your moments just as they come, knowing they can too.
Always makes me wonder why it is so difficult for us to not be that way more but the adult world has a lot of difficulties and problems and I guess we'd all look like we didn't care.....but still.
I have not really had any issues with my lumpectomy. Now I wonder if somewhere down the road????? I always thought it was due to just where it was which I guess could be characterized as left inner aspect and a little over mid-way down. Well, I guess time will tell. I have not had any issues with bras nor even how they fit, so was not relating well to Jo's questions. I did take care of a woman though who had one breast bigger than the other and she was old enough to just go braless by wearing bigger blouses with ladies t-shirts ( similar to men's ) underneath.
I did think at the time of my dx that if one had to go, I'd just ask for them both to be gone ( more to deal with symmetry and muscle, tendon, back aches and pains and problems from lop-sidedness ) as anything else and then just turn into a B-flat. I had a wonderful female surgeon and she told me that most Dr.'s used breast sparing surgery since tx was the same for total breast removal or just the lump.
Anyway -- today -- wow, it's 63 degrees here and not going to get any higher. How strange to go from stifling temps. to being cold in the space of about four days after a couple of rains. Well, I will enjoy it pretty much but do wonder what is coming next.
Blessings
Jackie
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Good morning all ... I hope everyone has a good day.
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You guys, I MUST be living in the Twilight zone! It is 37 degrees out right now! We have had our furnace on off and on since yesterday~
Okay yes Cammi..... we will be incognito.... we have to put this guy with Meemers on our radar.... see his whereabouts, and where he is planning to do with HER.... Not to mention what he has in mind as to where he wants to take her..... if she drives.
We have to protect our vulnerable you know...... She MIGHT see us, even with our disguises on.... Ha, ha! We will be hiding in the bushes with our feather masks on.... (left-over from previous jobs)..... and yes, we should always pack our hand-cuffs, and leg-irons. He will be SORRY he ever messed with her!
So Meemers, are you going to tell us when this occurance is happening? Or you're probably afraid to now....
Geez Cammi, have we ever done an intervention before? This might take more planning.
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Jackie, I was a perfect 36B at time of lumpectomy and rads 12 years ago. The lumpectomy was okay for the first 8 years while the non-affected breast was slowly dropping AND getting bigger and bigger. Part of the problem for me is that padding the radiated breast so that the two look more similar to fit a bra doesn't work for very long because the weight of the nonradiated breast is so much heavier. It all twists sideways.
For me it may mean having breast reduction of the non-lumpectomy breast.
For me, the sagging encouraged the development of rash under the breasts. That then got worse due to increasingly dry skin due to aging and loss of estrogen. And I don't mean just a little worse, either. Almost overnight, the rash covered my abdomen and back, and for the first time I acquired "age spots" that burned from the rubbing of any bra. I saw a derm doc in the Lower 48, who sounded pretty aghast when examining me.... She put me on steroid lotions to calm things down. That worked somewhat -- enough to keep doing it -- although it took almost 2 months. I saw another derm doc, who recommended moisturizing with creams like Cetaphil cream and use of Cetaphil soap. The rash is basically gone with nightly use of the cream, but the overall skin itching is 24/7 from my ankles to my neck. I may try to see an allergist next time I'm in the Lower 48, although I'm pretty sure it is due to the permanent extreme lack of estrogen.
Jeez. I had suggested at one time that a forum be provided specifically for those who were farther out from diagnosis, to see what we might share about our experience to help others, but that didn't gather speed. Probably these forums for those over 60 are the only place to find these discussions.
A.A.
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Alaska Angel, My situation sounds almost identical to yours. I was widowed the last day of my Chemo and therefore had no concern about what I looked like. This was in 2011. This past Christmas I remarried and although he says the way I look doesn't bother him--it bothers me. We just went on a cruise and I was very self-conscious when I was in my formal dress and in my bathing suit. Yesterday I saw a reconstructive plastic surgeon and plan to have surgery the first of January (Waiting until the new year so all procedures will be in the same year for insurance coverage).
His recommendation is to reduce and "lift" my right breast (was D-DD prior to surgery). Then he will cut up the scar tissue on my left breast and do liposuction from my abdomen to insert into the left breast. I'm wondering has anyone had this type of reconstruction? I'm blessed to be within driving distance of MD Anderson Cancer Center in Houston, and was able to get one of the top reconstructive surgeons they have.
He says he believes it will take 2-3 surgeries to get me to the point of being "even" on both sides. After the first surgery he'll wait 6 months and then we'll review where I stand. Interestingly enough, he told me that they've found that inserting my own fat into the breast will make it start to "grow" more fat cells on its own. Has anyone ever heard of that?
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Barberella, I want to encourage you to "go for it". I posted earlier about my experience with getting a consult regarding reconstructive surgery. Your situation sounds much like mine, except for the fact that I'm only 3 years out from cancer treatments. Still, it was becoming harder and harder to dress and feel comfortable about how I looked. I remarried 6 months ago, and he always tells me I look beautiful--but I know what I look like. Like you I want to be able to dress and not consider how my breasts look. The doctor was very encouraging about the surgery he will do, and the best part of it is I get liposuction on my abdomen and reduction of my other breast so it will be as he called it "perky" all in one shot!:) His optimism has made me feel that maybe I'm going to be able to put this behind me and move on with my life feeling like a "normal" woman, instead of highly disfigured. Again, I encourage you to get the consultation with a good reconstructive surgeon. Also, I went to a regular plastic surgeon several months ago and did not feel good about what he could offer. He didn't seem to know what to do about the changes to my breast from the radiation. My experience was totally different yesterday when I went to a cancer reconstructive plastic surgeon. He's done this procedure hundreds of times and I feel totally confident in his plan of action. Good luck to you!
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2LuvChou,
There are a number of articles about use of fat grafting for reconstruction on the internet.
There also is interest in particular in including the use of stem cells with the fat grafting, which may result in more of the fat cells reproducing and more effective reconstruction.
My concern and question would be to ask whether your surgeon would be planning to use stem cells as part of the procedure, and if so, would that also possibly raise the risk for bc recurrence, since chemo does not kill stem cells. One could have fat grafting without stem cells, if stem cells pose a risk for bc patients. I would recommend discussing it with your surgeon. (And any feedback here would be welcome.)
A.A.
P.S. This article is about head and neck fat grafting, not breasts, but it mentions the issue of stem cells so I'm throwing it in here for anyone who is interested:
http://www2.mdanderson.org/depts/oncolog/articles/14/4-apr/4-14-1.html
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AA -- I do wonder why there wasn't more reception towards the "thread" you felt was such a good idea. I can think of a couple of items right off - starting with the men who seem to say we ,who have had lumpectomies and such look just fine. I personally feel like the fellows are so glad to see us 'saved' from the monster that they don't get too emotional about what we look like now -- just darn glad we are still around.
Then there are people like myself who have not had it seems issues strong enough to have to feed the need of doing much. There is a slight indentation where the operation was preformed and a slight size difference, but it is so slight that doing anything seems a bother. I am after all 69 and won't be hoping to impress anyone too often. Still, I do think that things like this -- cancer txs and after effects that "toy" with our sense of self and self respect and interfere a lot with how we want to be presented to those around us are a BIG deal and should be, so jut surprised.
Jackie
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Maybe there should be a look good feel better class for older women dealing with age-related droop and a radiated or prosthesis on the other side making them look unbalanced. Foobs pretty much only come in perky. I discovered that a genii bra with my silicone in the other side creates a balanced droop.
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2LuvChou - I had DIEP, which is a flap using belly fat. Then in stage 2 my PS did fat grafting to fill in divots and make breasts more even in size. It was a "twofer," getting reconstructed breasts and tummy tuck at same time. Is that what you are having done or is it lipo to fill in?
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Wren -- I'm putting your post under -- Wren came up with this, but why didn't I think of that?????
I think in my older age I've maybe decided to let others do the thanking -- it must be too hard for me.
Jackie
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Hello, 2LuvChou, AlaskaAngel, & all
I really shouldn't have waited so long to have the surgery, but the Dr.'s were saying they wouldn't do the reduction because of my weight. I have a fused right ankle which has deteriorated to the point where I need a another fusion surgery to fix what the first Dr. did 25 years ago. I was very athletic before my accident & now the botched fusion has left me walking on a cane and very hard to be physically active. So it's a viscous cycle of gain more weight, a little less active. On & On.
This last year I have taken the stance that the Dr.'s position is cruel & unusual punishment. My "extra" weight should have nothing to do with a reduction. I was right in standing my ground saying I want this surgery now! This may encourage me to lose the weight, who knows.
2LuvChou I too found that plastic surgeons really don't understand radiation and the physical changes it causes. My really drastic changes happened at about the 15-16 year. I have the "pucker indents" in the scar which mimicked a breast cancer return last year. Good news no cancer but the radiation causes the tissue to harden, extreme fibrous tissue changes or fibrosistic disease. But I have been told by the plastic surgeon they can not do any sort of surgery on radiated breasts as they do not heal. I have no idea what Dr. Saint-Cyr's a breast reconstruction plastic surgeon's view is on this.
AlaskaAngel I also have the extreme rash under my normal saggy (doesn't that sound funny?) breast which is a G cup compared to a C-D. In the summer's hot weather it is a constant source of painful irritation. I find plain corn starch powder works well at moisture control. But it is so very painful I put cotton strips on the rash, between the skin.
I thought I was alone in dealing with these complications. How wrong I was. You would think in 20 years there wouldn't be such drastic changes. So my thinking on this is even if you have a reduction now, what are the chances that many years later there would still be drastic changes? I would not wait for all the tea in china, but maybe 2 surgeries might me warranted, one being many years after the first. It does make a difference in your esteem even at 60. Thanks for all the encouragement. Have a wonderful weekend everyone. Barb
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Jo6202,
Since I can not wear a bra, I wear cotton tank tops everywhere, with large shirts etc. on top. Usually I wear a tighter one so as to have some support, somewhat. But sometimes I wear loser ones, like at home. Just depends on what you like. I recommend you try them. They are the Faded Glory brand cotton w/no sleeves. You can buy them at wal-mart in sizes small to 5X, usually for $3.00. They are soft against irritated skin and look fairly nice under a shirt etc. Wearing the tanks are cooler than traditional 2 layers, plus when your alone at home you don't need a top shirt, just the tank. The all corn starch body powder works well also. I hope this helps. Barb
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Chevy and Cami, I knew I could count on the two of you to make me laugh. I love the name Meemers, maybe I'll adopt that as a new password for some of the many sites that make you think up stuff over and over. I'm still chuckling at your advice! I did see his picture on Facebook and no facial hair. But he looked lots shorter. I asked if he had shrunk over the years, but he claimed not. If that's true his daughters are both over six feet tall. And now he likes hunting, so I hope he can remember where he put the gun. The only weapon my DH ever used was a pencil. A professor, you know.
Now, another more serious question. While shopping for the new purple sweater and a DRESS to wear to the reunion I noticed a very real change in my body that has somehow escaped me before. Right after my lumpectomy everybody (well medical people, not really EVERYBODY) kept looking at "the girls", and they seemed to be equal in size just like always. But now, 9 months later, I took a good look in the mirror and OMG. They are entirely different. Maybe it was the Joan Rivers jokes about nipples at her waist that made me check. So evidentially the swelling has gone down and made one much smaller, or maybe the radiation. Anybody know if this is typical. I'm not particularly worried or upset. Just surprised.
I'm pretty excited to say I have clown gigs every day next weekend!!! A friend went to a women's study group and the Art Director was explaining that Sweet Mimi would be entertaining at Art in the Park next Sunday in a town nearby. He went on to say how great I was, but she knew darn well he had never met me and was just plugging his event. Ha Ha. I may get described as the lop-sided clown. My new big red shoes arrived so I'm walking more clowny these days. Here's a picture of me at the local bowling alley helping the owner celebrate his birthday. He daughter sent me as a surprise! These are NOT my new big red shoes.
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Chevy and Cami, I knew I could count on the two of you to make me laugh. I love the name Meemers, maybe I'll adopt that as a new password for some of the many sites that make you think up stuff over and over. I'm still chuckling at your advice! I did see his picture on Facebook and no facial hair. But he looked lots shorter. I asked if he had shrunk over the years, but he claimed not. If that's true his daughters are both over six feet tall. And now he likes hunting, so I hope he can remember where he put the gun. The only weapon my DH ever used was a pencil. A professor, you know.
Now, another more serious question. While shopping for the new purple sweater and a DRESS to wear to the reunion I noticed a very real change in my body that has somehow escaped me before. Right after my lumpectomy everybody (well medical people, not really EVERYBODY) kept looking at "the girls", and they seemed to be equal in size just like always. But now, 9 months later, I took a good look in the mirror and OMG. They are entirely different. Maybe it was the Joan Rivers jokes about nipples at her waist that made me check. So evidentially the swelling has gone down and made one much smaller, or maybe the radiation. Anybody know if this is typical. I'm not particularly worried or upset. Just surprised.
I'm pretty excited to say I have clown gigs every day next weekend!!! A friend went to a women's study group and the Art Director was explaining that Sweet Mimi would be entertaining at Art in the Park next Sunday in a town nearby. He went on to say how great I was, but she knew darn well he had never met me and was just plugging his event. Ha Ha. I may get described as the lop-sided clown. My new big red shoes arrived so I'm walking more clowny these days. Here's a picture of me at the local bowling alley helping the owner celebrate his birthday. He daughter sent me as a surprise! These are NOT my new big red shoes.
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Deleted the above post because it was somehow a duplicate. But oddly in the meantime I seemed to be reading posts from Barb and others about different size breasts that just appeared. So now I'm loosing my mind or reading old posts that just popped up. ????? Think I'll go looking for them again. The posts I mean.
Well I see now that there has been a recent discussion about breast size differences that I totally missed. Just a coincidence that I noticed mine while you were all conversing about it and I was off the computer. Strange coincidence, but nonetheless it happened.
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OMG Cammi! She's going through with it! There's no stopping her now.... She's even wearing a dress! I forgot what those were.
We might have to send Meemers an instructional video.... She might have forgotton proper protocol in meeting this new.... um..... "friend".... I think our work has finished Cammi.... She is all hell-bent on meeting this Mr. Man. So we must concentrate on other people who need our help.
DANG, do I need help! We took our dining room light fixture down, after the new bulbs would not work.... replaced the light-switch on the wall, and bought a NEW fixture, but we can't MOUNT it! And it's hard up on that ladder, with DH and his one crippled hand, that can't hold screws, etc. much less figure out the electrical configuration of mounting the damn thing... So I have to call a friend, and ask for the number of his handy-man.... I feel so bad for DH... I think he is sort of confused, and it makes me feel bad.
He has Dupetryn's Contracture in one hand, and it makes his last 3 fingers on his right hand curl in to the palm... ANYway.... besides it being only 37 degrees out, everything is good.
BTW.... Meemers, I just took in 3 bra's! They got too big.... I can't fill them out! So I cut them diagnally, into the center, then overlapped the material, and stitched it down.... Now it fits... Just made the cups smaller... It's amazing the changes our breast go through on their own, and the direction they take! Like they have no consideration for proper pointing anymore! So we just deal.
So yes, my left breast is not the same as the right one.... I rarely find myself looking in the mirror anyway.... Just my face.... And I can paint that up enough to render going out of the house without scaring the chickens.
Okay.... BBL
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