Does DIM really work?
Comments
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Hi Deanna:
I agree with you about not looking into websites that are "entirely" selling D.I.M. for instance. But Dr. Michael Zeligs has researched D.I.M. and has many articles out on it. I kind of went for his information because he IS a doctor and I have checked his credentials. Google Dr. Michael Zeligs and you will find quite a bit on his research. I chose his article on his Research Update on Natural Medicine for Women's Health to give my my Oncologist. I am assuming that his product could be one of the better supplements, Bio-Response because he's is a doctor and has done the research.
I have stomach upsets and illness feeling after taking only 3 Aremadex. I do not want to spend 5 years living like that. I have taken the above info. to my oncologist and he actually is going to do some more research on D.I.M. Regardless, it's at the Herbarium in our area and I want to take it even if he's not going to back me up. I do hope that if he doesn't back me up, he will at least monitor me.
I have a bi-lateral on March 22nd, I've had a total hysterectomy in 2002, so I have no ovaries. I've had chemo which shrunk the cancer from almost 4.0 cm. to 2.0 cm. All margins were clear after surgery. Three lymph nodes removed. Microscopic cancer cells were found at the beginning of the sentinal node. Was disappointed because the biopsy of cells removed months ago, showed all was clear. But it's the pathology report that counts. The other two nodes were clear. No radiation.
My email is CntryDnc22@aol.com. I'd like the information you are talking about. The info. you are talking about that have no vested interest in selling anything. Are there other people out there doing research other than Dr. Michael Zeligs? Etc. Etc.
Kathleen0 -
Does anyone have further information on the possibility that DIM stimulates cancer? People here feel confident DIM works, could you point me to research?
I feel like having a back up plan if I can't tolerate Tamoxifen would be wonderful.
I just got my eyes checked. I've only been on Tamox for five months, but so far, no signs of cataracts, or glaucoma. Those of us on this drug should have our eyes checked regularly for rare eye toxicity SEs.
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Kathleen, I think I understand what you're saying about Dr. Michael Zeligs' credentials. They certainly sound impressive. But what I'm trying to say is -- even though he has done a lot of research and developed a product, he is benefiting from selling that formulation, which could make him biased about its use and effacacy.
There's another thread here where women have given links to websites that provide non-biased reviews of all sorts of complementary and alternative medicine. Sites like these, where you can look up DIM and lots of other alternative & complementary therapies:
http://nccam.nih.gov/; http://www.mdanderson.org/education-and-research/resources-for-professionals/clinical-tools-and-resources/cimer/index.html; and http://www.mskcc.org/mskcc/html/11570.cfm.
This Wikipedia page also gives a lot of research cites: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3,3'-Diindolylmethane
I hear your frustration about being RX'd Arimidex. Obviously, whether or not we take an A/I is a very individual decision, but it sounds like you're weighing important factors in your own situation. Have you had your estrogen levels checked? That would be another clue to how much circulating estrogen you have to worry about. My primary doc tests mine at my request, right along with other basic bloodwork. Deanna
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Hi Deanna
Thank you for the websites. I have looked at them.
I did ask my oncologist if I could have an estrogen test and he didn't think it was necessary since I had a total hysterectomy in 2002, my estrogen would be low anyway. I've been dealing with hot flashes all these years. And Arimadex is going to add more hot flashes to that? ! Ahhh. I do believe by lowering one's low estrogen even further can be quite harmful to the bones and joints. It only makes sense.
I have a friend at church who was on Tamoxafin for 8 years. When she went off of it, one year later, she had cancer in the other breast. That is proof that Tamoxafin doesn't solve "THE PROBLEM", but only prevents cancer while taking it because of lowering the estrogen. I am understanding now that metabolism is the problem. I had no idea of metabolism, about good or bad estrogen. I wish I knew of this before. The one thing my oncologist is questioning is "metabolism". He's afraid by metabolising, it could raise the estrogen. But I did find some information that D.I.M. neither raises or lowers estrogen. I believe Susan, Island Girl, did get a lowering of estrogen while on D.I.M. Which is fantastic.
I will be seeing my oncologist in 3 weeks. He has me off of Arimadex. I'm sure he can't "as a doctor" recommend I take it, but then he can't stop me either. He said he will do some research. I am in hopes he will monitor me.
Can I ask why your primary doctor tests your estrogen instead of your oncologist?
Thanks.
Kathleen (CntryDnc22@aol.com)0 -
Hi, Kathleen ~ I believe the reason most oncologists do not test for hormones is that they were not trained to do so. It's much simpler and safer (re. liability) to RX the "standard of care," which, in the case of post-menopausal women, is an A/I -- because statistics show that an A/I absolutely will reduce a woman's risk of recurrence. Unfortunately for those of us who cannot tolerate or do not want to take an A/I for whatever reason, those research results only show an A/I vs. nothing, or an A/I vs. Tamox. There is no research for an A/I vs. DIM or other estrogen modulator. Plus, women who choose to go a natural route often incorporate other lifestyle modifications (like serious exercise), and no research factors all of that in, although there are ample reports of positive experiences.
Luckily, my PCP believes in a lot of natural therapies. She strongly recommended Green Tea Extract and Turmeric, for example, and she was was happy to test my hormone levels. But even she was upset that I wouldn't take an A/I or Tamox or even Evista (which she RX'd in lieu of the others). We had one very heated discussion about this, but when she couldn't explain or prove to me exactly what an A/I or Tamox does that I3C and DIM don't do (besides causing bone loss or increasing our risk of blood clots), then I decided to trust my own research and beliefs about what would be best for my body. But, like you, I had to factor in things like being solidly post-menopausal, as well as having gone off the HRT I'd been on for many years. So, as strongly as I feel about this, I still believe it's a very individual decision. Deanna
PS ~ My estrogen is also <10 with I3C, exercise and diet changes.
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Deanna, What is 13c? I know what DIM is, but never heard of 13c.
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kira, here's a pretty comprehensive explanation:
http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2002/jan2002_report_i3c_01.html
This particular article was written in 2002, but I believe the information is still valid, and I haven't read anything more recent to change my mind. I've also tried both DIM and I3C, and DIM makes my joints (which ache with either one), hurt a lot more. I actually happen to be using DIM right now -- finishing up a partially used bottle I had on hand before I buy more I3C. But, again, this is what feels right for my body. Deanna
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Deanna, Thanks for the info it is very detailed. Where can I get it? If I will stop having the joint pain and can be monitered for my estrogen level I would like to give it a try. Six months on Femara, and I can hardly walk any more. I'm a teacher, and can't hold a pencil for more than a few minutes. It's just not worth it.
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I buy the bioresponse DIM (it is the kind used in clinical trials) at whole foods and it is also avaiable on amazon.
My oncologist has agreed- grudgingly- to give me a full horomone panel every three months as I could not tolerate the AIs either. One Arimidex pill literally knocked me down like a feather. I take the DIM, grapeseed extract, and some other nutritionals. My last blood work showed very low levels across the boards-my estrone was 16 pg/ml and estradiol was 5pg/ml. This is what the goal is of the AIs. As long as I can maintain it this way, I will keep it up.
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Tamoxifen does not lower estrogen, it is selective. It attaches to cells in the breast, and actually estrogenizes the uterus. The A/Is and Tamoxifen, while both considered hormonal therapies, act very differently.
There is lots of speculation that Tamox just puts "the problem" to sleep. But recurrence is most dangerous in the first five years, and this is why being on it still makes a lot of sense for high risk patients.
Thanks the the DIM links! I am gunshy about taking it WITH my Tamoxifen, but if I ever needed backup...currently, I'm really struggling with back pain as an SE to Tamox.
I had my estrogens tested with a naturopath. The whole hormone balance issue is far from conclusive. Studies really are needed to assess the true risks of progesterone, DHEA, and estriol (the "good" estrogen) from what I understand.
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Hi Deanna:
You had wrote a reply to me and asked me if I was wondering if D.I.M. works, you had wrote "Absolutely it does" and that there are quite a few women on BCO who use it.
Do you use it yourself? I would really like to know how it's worked for you. And if you do, what brand do you use? When you say there are a number of women using D.I.M. on BCO, are you meaning Breast Cancer Org.? This Board is "Does D.I.M. really work". Are there other titles in this discussion board dealing with D.I.M.?
I will be seeing my oncologist May 19th. He is researchig D.I.M. because he's not heard of it.
My email is: CntryDnc22@aol.com
Thanks.
Kathleen0 -
Kathleen, yes "BCO" = Breastcancer.org. There's a lengthy thread here entitled, "Natural Girls," that you might want to look at. It's a fast-moving thread that covers all sorts of topics, and DIM has frequently been mentioned. There was also a pretty good thread here several months ago on DIM. I can't recall the name of it, but if you use the search feature (to upper right), you should be able to find it by searching DIM or estrogen. I'll also look for it tomorrow for you and add a link if I spot it.
When I said, "absolutely, it does," I am speaking about my experience and the experience of several other BCO members who use natural estrogen modulators like DIM or I3C and have been able to achieve very low estrogen levels with them, as do body builders. I am not a doctor, and I am not suggesting that anyone base their decision on what I or anyone else is doing. My onc @ UCLA wanted me on an A/I or Tamox. My PCP thinks I should be on Tamox, but she could not explain to me what it does that's any different or better than I3C. I doubt very much you will find a traditional onc who will in the end deviate from the standard of care in favor of DIM. If you want guidance from a medical professional, you may need to find an integrative oncologist or naturapathic doctor with breast cancer knowledge.
I've used both DIM and I3C and I prefer the latter. I sought out an alternative because I had a passing out episode while briefly on Femara, and I was afraid to try another A/I. I didn't want to take Tamox either. But I don't think it's quite as simple as swapping 1 pill for another. If you're not on an A/I, getting your estrogen level down may also take some lifestyle commitments, like exercise. You will probably also want to monitor your estrogen levels, which oncs don't bother to do when you're on an A/I or Tamox.
All I can say is, read, read, read, and make your own decision based on your own conclusions. Deanna
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This is a very useful topic for me! So glad I found it. I am going through just about everything everyone else is going through. I had a bilateral mastectomy in January 2012, ER+, PR+ HER2-, no lymph node involvement, no chemo or radiation necessary but my onc put me on arimadex for ER+. I took it 3 months and never felt so bad. I am already osteopedic and my mother is pretty much disabled at 84 due to bad bones, joints, etc. so I don't want to take that any more. My onc suggested tamoxifen but my cancer nutritionist says that tamox is a carcinogen and doesn't recommend either. So I am going the natural route but having a really difficult time getting anyone to check my estrogen levels. My onc says its not necessary as there is no "safe" level that they can compare to. My PC dr won't do it because he doesn't understand all the diff types of estrogen and wouldn't know what to test - I think he doesn't want to step on my onc's toes. My natureopath/chiropractor won't do it either for the same reasons. I'm going to try my obgyn next. It is so frustrating! I'm taking DIM, Calcium D Glucarate, pomegranate extract but now I'm going to research IC3 too. Thank you all for all of this enlightening info. It so hard to know what to do! If I could just get my estrogen levels, I'd feel better about what I'm doing as I could hopefully see a number go up or down in response but right now, I'm flying blind!
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I started taking DIM about two weeks after surgery, and saw my MO four weeks later. I asked her for an estrogen test that day and my Estrdiole came back as a 3.9. No idea what it was before the DIM, but I am about 8 years post meno.
Guess I will call next month and see if she still wants to see me. That appointment is supposed to be a follow up on Femara. Which I'm not taking. If there are benefits to AIs beyond keeping our estrogen levels low, no one has been able to explain it to me. My surgeon was aghast when I told him, he said " but there is estrogen on your skin". That was a little strange.
I'm having trouble with my low dose of Metformin, trying to get up to 500mg a day. Like others here, I'm so over sensitive with meds. Can't imagine what would happen with the Femara.0 -
I just had a lumpectomy and decided against radiation as my dcis was about .2 cm, and clear margins, no nodes, lo grade... I also am not taking tamoxifen. My oncologists were "OK" with my decisions, and I have now gone to a fantastic naturopathic doctor, who prescribed me quite a regimen of supplements, DIM being one. I am much more comfortable going this route, though there is no way to tell except from one mammogram to the next which would be the case anyway along with rads and drugs that have too many side effects that I did not want to chance. I am comfortable with my direction and will ask alot of questions about DIM, but trust the woman I am seeing, she is a cracker jack of knowledge and treats alot of women with breast cancer and other auto immune things. We all have to just be comfortable with the decisions we make, and hope for the best..... good luck to us all!
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I will ask my new naturopath about the other one IC3 and why she didnt' use that as well. I just trust her but am a questioner as this is a totally different direction than the usual protocol... She has also ordered me a blood test for quite a few things, including estrogen levels etc. I will know more as I go on this path and will share what I learn.
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I tried DIM earlier this year and got a bad yeast infection. Never had one before and only could attribute it to taking the DIM. I stopped but wonder if I should try it again. Refused to take Tamoxifen due to side effects and my basic distrust of the whole cancer industry. Just wondering if anyone else had any problems with yeast infections.
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I've been taking DIM for 4 years now and have not had any yeast infections. So I don't know if grt42btexan's yeast infection might be from something else. In any event, kat526 not everyone gets yeast infections from DIM. Try to trust your naturopath. All the best, Mandy
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grt, I've never heard of anyone getting a yeast infection associated with DIM. In fact, I just Googled "DIM and yeast infections," and came up with several references to DIM actually being beneficial for clearing up hard to treat yeast infections. I'm not saying it couldn't happen, but if I was in your situation, I'd probably give it another try -- maybe starting with a lesser amount, just to be extra careful. Deanna
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Hi folks - I see no one has posted here in quite some time, but in case someone is looking for information on DIM, I thought I would post this information. I used it for quite some time - relied on it, because a naturopath in Australia told me it would be better for me to take it (because I absolutely WASN'T going to be on Tamoxifen or Arimidex). I liked it, had no problems with it. But then I spoke to my naturopath here in Denver about it in Dec 2012 and he'd just written a lengthy article (and here's the link to his article published Jan 2012: http://www.townsendletter.com/Jan2013/estrogen0113.html ) which pretty much blows DIM out of the water as far as being a useful supplement. It's not an easy article to read, but after you've spent some time with it and read it through and through, you will understand it.
Kind of depressing, really. I've got quite a few articles about natural aromatase inhibitors on my site - here's the link to all of my articles: http://marnieclark.com/category/aromatase-inhibitors/
Hope this info helps someone.
xox
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I tried opening your link about the article on DIM looking 'dismal'...can u provide a different link? This could be a downer...sigh
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Hi joellelee - I got your PM and if you will email me (my email address is in my reply) I will send you a link to the article. Sorry it wouldn't open.
xox
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Hi anyone takes both DIM and Calcium D Glucarate? It seems the effects are similar on estrogen reduction, can we select one of them? or using both would be better? any suggestion/comment is appreciated, as I am puzzling on whether I should choose one of them or both? Thx.0 -
Hi everyone,
I haven't been on this thread for awhile but I recently had some updates about DIM so I thought I'd better cruise over here and share them with you all, particularly since I was the one who initially was told that DIM might not be a useful supplement for breast cancer and then shared that info. I was wrong and don't mind admitting it. Turns out, it just doesn't work the way we initially thought it did. Plenty of research shows that it does have useful benefits for breast cancer though (and no, I'm not selling it, just sharing info).
I've got a couple updated articles on my website about the subject of DIM and its uses for breast cancer:
http://marnieclark.com/more-information-on-dim-estrogen-metabolite-ratios/
http://marnieclark.com/clarification-on-dim-and-its-uses-for-breast-cancer/
There are some excellent research studies on DIM referenced at the bottom of the second article. Also, the website Life Over Cancer wrote about DIM yesterday too - here's the link to that one:
http://lifeovercancerblog.typepad.com/life-over-cancer-blog/2013/10/dim-and-breast-cancer.html
Hope this helps someone!0 -
Cam some one advice please.. June 2014 I was diagnosed with stage 1 .Grad1..bc..had a right side mastectomy done due to another tumour sat next to the bc so opted to Hve the whole right boob off.. surgeon said snb was all clear outta the 3 they took and was sent home on my merry way with tamoxifen 20 mg to b taken for upto 3 years as I was aparently pre. Menapause.. I on the other hand don't really want to take a tablet. Tamixifen that can b giving me more probs and other cancers. So although I hve been taking them for a month now I want away with them.. I have read until my eyes bleed trying to find alternate that really work or combination that works.. can anyone please give me some ideas . I Hve heard DIM. But at what dose.. and a couple of others.. I do want off tamoxifen but without risk of reacurrence. Please advice. Xx
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English Rose are you in the UK? If so there are a couple of clinics that work with conventional and complementary treatments for breast cancer - google Dr Kenyon at the Dove Clinic or Dr Hembry Bristol, it is a very complicated field and you could benefit from their knowledge, both are fully qualified medical doctors just with special interests in complementary approaches
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In addition to DIM my integrative physician prescribes iodine (I-Throid) to help the body metabolize estrogen into the least harmful form.
http://www.medsci.org/v05p0189.htm
I am taking both in addition to the calcium-d-gluconate and other supplements suggested by LEF.ORG. http://www.lef.org/protocols/cancer/breast_cancer_les.htm
Both my integrative doc and ob-gyn strongly suggest use of DIM. My integrative doc strongly suggests iodine in addition to DIM also.
Thanks for the links on DIM everyone..very good information. Note: the Apiginen supplement on the lef.org site is similar to DIM.
BTW if you want to have your own hormone levels checked yourself you can use saliva testing offered at canaryclub.org or LEF.ORG.
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Old thread but want to add my two cents. I refused tamoxifen after two weeks because of the side effects. My naturopath put me on lots of things including DIM, indole 3 carbinol, iodine, molybdenum, curcumin, etc.... Two years later, almost to the day, I was diagnosed with a recurrence. Now it's also in my lymph nodes. I will always wonder if things might have been different had I stayed on the tamoxifen. Now I'm trying to decide if I'm going to stay on my antioxidants during chemo - chemo that won't even be all that effective since I'm ER+, PR+, Her2-. Tough choices for all of us, that's for sure!
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After my single mastectomy five years ago, I started this post asking about DIM, when I read all the terrible side effects of Tamoxifin, etc. I printed out a sheaf of papers on DIM and gave them to my oncologist....and told him that I would like him to test my estrogen levels and if they weren't where he wanted them, I would consider taking the prescription drugs. I am happy to say he was surprised and happy with my results. I have taken it pretty much daily since that time and have had no recurrence. I had the ONCO Type D test done on my tumor and it showed a very low recurrence probability, so I didn't have to do chemo or radiation. I highly recommend that test to everyone! I am 70 years old now...not much estrogen pumping anyway. I think it all depends on your age and the severity of your cancer. I consider myself very lucky...and wish all of you a safe journey down this road.
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klander - well I took Tamxoifen and I developed edema. For some reason I also got hyperthyroidism. My Mo said the Tamxoifen didn't contribute to the thyroid issue. I don't know. My primary doc said I was lucky that the SE wasn't severe.
Well I guess not having a blood clot is a blessing which I believe so. Just inconvenience.
So back to your what ifs...I don't know. You might have developed some SE if you stayed on it. I am so sorry to hear your recurrence....I am adding more anticancer stuff (turmeric and cinnamon) in food form to help me....
Pls keep us posted......wish you the very best....
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