Does DIM really work?
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I suspect DIM works about as well as Tamoxifen-that is, it doesn't prevent a recurrence all the time for everyone. I don't think anything does, but IMO it's worth a try and won't hurt you-unlike Tamoxifen which very well might and which definitely doesn't come with any guarantees either. In fact we know it doesn't work about 1/2 of the time-given my stats per my OC, 85% of women w my diagnosis will not have a recurrence after surgery and rads (with or without taking tamoxifen) andl 7-8 will prevent a recurrence by taking it and 7-8 will have a recurrence despite using tamoxifen-basically it works about 1/2 the time, has no effect on those (the majority) who wouldn't have a recurrence anyway. I'm going with the do no harm thing for right now.
I'm very sorry to read your cancer is back, klanders, but I really hope you don't torture yourself too much about passing on Tamoxifen. Geez, my mother did everything her doctors recommended, including taking tamoxifen, dealt with some pretty uncomfortable side effects, and her cancer progressed to stage IV in less than 4 years after her initial diagnosis. She frequently wondered if she had tried something else (natural remedies/diet) if she might have kept the BC from coming back. Second guessing our decisions, no matter what they are, is a very common thing to do I think, when faced with choices that sadly offer no guarantees. Good luck with you future choices. I just wish we had better options to choose from or that this just hadn't happened to any of us at all. BC so sucks!
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I would say yes. I asked my primary care doctor to order a estradiol blood level test each year at my checkup. While I was taking DIM, it was below 10 pg/ml each year. Late last year I had quit taking it, trying to give my liver a break ( I am 62 and 10 years from menopause). The results in February 2015 were 18 pg/ml.
I have a new tumor, and I don't think that was the cause. My estrogen is still pretty low. But who knows.
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Does anyone have any idea where to get DIM with no soy? I have read and heard that soy mimics estrogen.
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I use Smoky Mountain Naturals DIM. It has no soy in it. I order it from Amazon.
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I am also wanting to know if DIM really works. I have Tamoxifen and I`m afraid to take it. I would love to hear
from someone who has taken it for years and the success you have had with it. Thank you!
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Hi DianaNM,
Could you tell me how long you took the DIM and what strength? How are you doing by now? I hope
everything is fine. I have yet to take anything, although I have a prescription for Tamoxifen. I would like
to know if DIM is as good as Tamoxifen and does it have side effects? Thank you so much. Love and
best wishes to you.
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There are women who took tamoxifen and were/are fine and women who took tamoxifen and progressed to stage IV (my mother) - this doesn't mean the drug will or will not work for you/me/any of us. There are women who've remained free of a recurrence for 40+ years with just surgery (my husband's aunt-now 90 something).
Studies show tamoxifen prevents about 1/2 of all expected recurrences(the 50% reduction rate). For example, if you have 100 women with BC and their stats say 20 will get a recurrence and you give all 100 of them tamoxifen only 10 will get a recurrence-this has been proven with studies of large groups of women over many years. DIM does not have such studies to prove its effectiveness-maybe it is less effective, maybe not. Small studies seem to show it modulates estrogen in a positive manner. Basically, we know tamoxifen will work 1/2 of the time-I didn't consider that to be very impressive given the possible side effects but lots of women do think the 50% reduction is worth it-if you have stats showing you will have a 30% chance of getting a recurrence without tamoxifen and 15% with, there is a better chance you might benefit from that drug than a person with only a 10% recurrence rate without it - only a 5% chance they would benefit from it.
Most people with early stage BC who take Tamoxifen or DIM or nothing at all will NOT have a recurrence-the odds are on our side no matter what-per my oncologists who wanted me to take tamoxifen, but said not taking it was also reasonable for me.
Stories from women who took DIM and never had a recurrence are out there, as are stories of women who took hormonal drugs and never had a recurrence and stories of women who just had surgery or surgery/RADS and never had a recurrence. Nothing we have is 100% effective (we can only wish for that) no one can tell if you really need to do anything at all to prevent a recurrence and only you can decide what you are or aren't willing to try and review with your OC about just what your personal risk of recurrence is and then try to make a decision you can live with.
I take several supplements to modulate estrogen including DIM, ground flaxseed and Calcium D glucarate. I experienced more hot flashes after starting these supplements and haven't had a period since May-but at age 52 it is hard to say if it's the supplements or mother nature.
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I will be seeing my MO on Tuesday and am hoping he will support me in using indole-3-carbinol. It is the precursor for DIM.
Google "indole 3 carbinol and breast cancer" and "indole 3 carbinol and estrogen" and "indole 3 carbinol and DIM" to learn more about it.
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Your regular oncologist will probably not be willing to recommend DIM or indole 3 carbonol. These are not the "standard of care" and many doctors are not willing to deviate from the "standard of care" for reasons that range from fear of malpractice suits to losing their jobs (if they work for a hospital or cancer center). When asked about alternatives like DIM, flaxseed, progesterone cream, my OC's stock answer seemed to be "we don't know enough about XYZ for me to recommend that."
I looked at both DIM and indole 3 and chose to use DIM. Some testing (I think at the University of AZ) is currently being done to see if DIM can boost the effects of Tamoxifen. Given that Tamoxifen/AI treatment is the "standard of care" for ER+ BC no tests that don't involve Tamoxifen or an AI are likely to happen on a wide scale at this time.
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I was taking DIM prior to my surgery as I was desperate to try anything at that point. Then I read some controversial things about it (see paragraph below) and decided to stop it. I do take some supplements such as Vitamin D3, Selenium, fish oil, baby aspirin (but I am not consistent in taking it), mushroom supplements and zinc on occasion. I do eat a lot more brassica vegetables than prior to my diagnosis. I am taking Tamoxifen and getting my uterus checked twice a year. I sure hate taking it, but my MO says it's my best bet right now until I am confirmed post-menopausal.
In most animal models, exposure to a chemical carcinogen is required to cause cancer. When administered before or at the same time as the carcinogen, oral I3C has been found to inhibit the development of cancer in a variety of animal models and tissues, including cancers of the mammary gland (breast) (51, 52), uterus (53), stomach (54), colon (55, 56), lung (57), and liver (58, 59). However, a number of studies have found that I3C actually promoted or enhanced the development of cancer when administered chronically after the carcinogen (post-initiation). The cancer-promoting effects of I3C were first reported in a trout model of liver cancer (60, 61). However, I3C has also been found to promote cancer of the liver (62-64), thyroid (64), colon (65, 66), and uterus (67) in rats. More recently, inclusion of I3C in the maternal diet was found to protect the offspring from lymphoma and lung tumors induced by dibenzo[a,l]pyrene, a polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbon(68). Polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons are chemical pollutants formed during incomplete combustion of organic substances, such as coal, oil, wood, and tobacco (69). Although the long-term effects of I3C supplementation on cancer risk in humans are not known, the contradictory results of animal studies have led several experts to caution against the widespread use of I3C and DIM supplements in humans until their potential risks and benefits are better understood (62, 70, 71).
More at: http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/mic/dietary-factors/phy...
This site warns about taking too much DIM: http://examine.com/supplements/diindolylmethane/ I liked that it provides this list of foods that contain Glucosinolates, "with any source mentioning diindolylmethane or its precursor (Indole-3-Carbinol) specifically being mentioned in bold:"
- Brussel Sprouts, at 104mg per 44g (half cup)[6]
- Garden Cress, 98mg at 25g (half cup)[6]
- Mustard Greens, 79mg at 28g (half cup, chopped)[6]
- Turnip, 60mg at 65g (half cup, cubes)[6]
- Savoy Cabbage, 35mg at 45g (half cup, chopped)[6]
- Kale, 67mg per 67g (1 cup, chopped)[6]
- Watercress, 32mg per 34g (1 cup, chopped)[6]
- Kohlrabi, 31mg per 67g (half cup, chopped)[6]
- Red Cabbage, 29mg per 45g (half-cup, chopped)[6]
- Broccoli, 27mg per 44g (half cup, chopped)[6]
- Horseradish, 24mg per 15g (tablespoon)[6]
- Cauliflower, 22mg per 50g (half-cup chopped)[6]
- Bok Choy, 19mg per 35g (half cup, chopped)[6]
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Farmlovergrl, sorry to be slow getting back to you. The last one I was taking was Nature's Way DIM plus. It says 2 caps per day, I only took one.
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Thanks DianaNm, I have been on Tamoxifen 10mg for 4 days. I have some other health issues such as lingering pain from shingles.
My onc wants me to start on this dose and see how I tolerate it. I don`t like it but do not know what else to do. I have read posts from ladies who took DIM, and other supplements, ate healthy and the cancer returned with a vengeance. I have also read it can return, even if you take Tamoxifen. This makes me so scared. My onco type dx score was 8. I had left mastectomy with tissue expander placement. I have taken some steps backward with the TE because I got shingles on my back. I hate the expander and am considering having it removed. I had 17 lymph nodes removed because there was a tiny speck of micromatastisis in the sentinel node. Sixteen nodes clear. I now have lymphedema around TE and left arm. A Year ago I was healthy and happy, now all this. It`s just unbelievable the shock all this does to a person. We never think of it happening to us, until it does!! My surgery was May 6th 2015. I ask "Why this? Why me? Why anyone?" but, I guess, "Why not me?" I may not have spelled everything correctly, but you know what I mean. 
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Since this old thread is active again with some more recently dx'd women asking about alternatives to Tamox and the A/I's... and since I commented here earlier about using I3C... I wanted to point out for anyone coming to the thread now that I also had a Stage IV metastatic recurrence (to my bones) in 2014. With a strong family hx, for all I know my recurrence might have happened if I'd been on an A/I. But given what I know now, I would be extremely leery of recommending an alternative -- whether DIM or I3C -- to anyone, especially if your bc is Grade 3 (aggressive) and/or if you had one or more positive nodes, which clearly means your bc has figured out how to travel.
And an interesting thing is... once re-dx'd, I went on Anastrazole (Arimidex) and had absolutely no problems with it (as I'd had with Femara), and it kept me stable for approx. 18 mos.
Just an update for anyone who may have read and been influenced by my earlier posts...
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Thank you so much dlb823, I am so sorry you are going through this. I have decided on taking the Tamoxifen and go up with the dose before long. Yes, there are some side effects because I have other issues, such as stage 1 lymphedema and shingles neuralgia. I take it early about 6:00am, and by the time I go to bed I can sleep. I am also taking some supplements. One of them is Calcium D-Glucarate 1 500mg. I wish you the very best and I will pray for you. May God be with each and everyone who is going through this in any stage, grade or diagnosis. Love and hugs.
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Ladies, I'm awakening this thread with a question... I took a genetics test that shows I'm COMT A/A variety.. (met/met) and that I have naturally low COMT (which eats the bad estrogen). They suggested DIM in the studies to counteract it. I'm taking Tamoxifen and so far no SEs.. so I plan on continuing. CAN I TAKE BOTH DIM and Tamox? Has anyone taken both?
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someone wanted other estrogen depressors I am taking DIM and Estroquench with pomegranate tablets. I did not do radiation or chemistry and am also taking turkey rail, My Community, curcumin for to clean up any lingering cancerous cells. Family & doctors not too happy, but I feel great. Going for my 3 month check up.hust doing a ultra sound and not a mammogram
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Hi, is DIM now considered unsafe for breast cancer survivors? I'm a 3 year TNBC survivor and need something to help with night sweats. They've gotten worse lately. Chemo sent me straight into menopause at age 47. I'm now 50. I started taking DIM last week and the sweating has actually gotten worse. The ladies who recommended it on a Fascia Blasting board said it may take awhile to regulate. I called my pharmacist to see if it conflicts with any meds I take and they couldn't find it in the system. After I explained that it regulates estrogen she told me that with my having breast cancer I should ask my oncologist. I've a call in to my oncologist today waiting to hear back.
Is this supplement considered safe for breast cancer survivors now? Reading back the posts in 2010 seem to think it is awesome, but now it seems not as clear? Just wanted some opinions. Thank you!
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Tiddlywinks, do talk to your doctor about it. DIM is supposed to reduce estrogen. That means that IF it works, it should make menopausal symptoms worse not better.
Also keep in mind that menopause symptoms will likely get better on their own, as your body adjust to the new situation.
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Hi how are you? Would you please email that to chars mom 65 at yahoo.com
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Hi Solfeo, I am not taking DIM, though I probably could since I'm an ultra rapid metabolizer. I'll get my endoxifen tested again in January, but I think I'm still in therapeutic levels. I'm eating lots of broccholi though, and brussel sprouts - which have DIM. My iron levels are really low, so I'm having to now supplement that (double dosage per my doc). I also can't seem to keep my vitamin D levels high - even though I've been taking 11,000 ius a day, but fish oil on top.
Solfeo, did you get your COMT pathways tested as well? I know we discussed COMT in the other thread, but the more research I've been doing on it, the more I think it plays a larger factor in ER+ BC than we currently are aware. Being a double Met/Met allele, my body has about 60% less ability to remove surplus estrogen. On the flip side, apparently green tea isn't removed from my body as quickly either, so it's more helpful to me. If only I could handle the taste. ick.
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Hi everyone...I take DIM in leu of an aromatase inhibitor. The theory behind it is that it reduces the bad estrogen that causes BC but not the good estrogen that we all need for all other parts of our body. Some people buy that theory and some do not. I'm 2 1/2 years NED. So far so good! We all have to make our own informed decisions. IMO it works as well as an aromatase inhibitor but with less side effects. However I'm also very aware that there are no guarantees no matter what we decide. Good luck to all navigating this complicated disease.
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dtad I'm interested to know what Brand of DIM you are taking? Do you get any side effects? I assume not. Thanks!
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marjen...I take Breast Defend which has DIM in it. I do still have some hot flashes but not terrible.
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Thanks dtad. I never had a hot flash on AI, only got a little warm for a while
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Anyone here taking Tamoxifen and DIM? If so, which brand of DIM.
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Lol. Solfeo! I am a genetic mutant for sure! Still wish I could appreciate green tea. But give me dem broccolis and brussel sprouts!
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Yes I will appreciate if you send it to me, thank 's.
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dtad I am going to try DIM...would you also suggest I get my MD to check estrogen levels?
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Sandrasummers...it’s a little hard to answer your questions since you have not made your stats public. However in general I would say it’s a good idea to have your estrogen levels checked. Good luck and keep us posted
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Thanks dtad I think they are public now!
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