Fasting before chemo
Hi all I cannot find a thread just for this....so I figured I would start one...
I will google about Valter Longo USC but I was wondering if anyone can chat about this here....
Santa you mentioned in the ringworm thread that you did this...I was wondering if your chemo was a Taxane Chemo? I will be getting Doxil its a 5FU chemo I believe. The problem is I am getting a PET scan 24 hour prior...so I will have to be fasting from Tuesday night... PET Wednesday morning and then Chemo 12 noon Thursday... so that will be more like 36 hours of fasting... is it ok that I have the PET the day before? Does anyone know if any of that will effect my labs the 24 hours later? Does the Fasting affect the labs??
Also my plan is to fast... then at the infusion eat a homemade Acia bowl....chemo... is this good?
Nicole
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Was told this now... :
"most cancer cells are weakened by fasting and sent into a state where they have very little antioxidant protection while your healthy cells naturally button up and ramp up their antioxidant protection mechanisms. This means your healthy cells are more protected from the chemotherapy drugs while the cancer cells are more susceptible to them. Eating sugar would wake up your healthy cells too and undo the work that the fasting did."
Is eating during the infusion to "wake them up" only good for IVC???
Also everything I found and the couple of interviews I watched on youtube of Valter he didn't talk anything about fasting with chemo...just about fasting for longevity ...
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I fasted for chemo. I did fasting mimicking for 5 days instead of 3 day water fast. Middle day = chemo day either way.
I would have a smoothie for breakfast during my chemo infusion (but it was still a low 800 cal day and low sugar). I did about a 250-300 cal smoothie with berries and supplements in it.
For fasting mimicking, calories need to be low and the composition of foods is also specific. You want a low amount of protein (10% of total calories). Mostly veggies, broths... small amount of nuts, an avocado, an egg / a small piece of salmon.
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Thanks for the reply Santa...
I cannot find that FMD > like exactly what the foods are anywhere on line so I am glad you mentioned some of them.
Just wondering if you have come across anything saying that the method I was going to do is bad?> roughly 24 - 36 hours fast then chemo, and at chemo have a homemade Acai bowl,(little granola, strawberries, blueberries maybe 1/2 of a banana) ....then fast again or no need? Or anything saying to just fast 36 hours prior and 24 hours after (I don't think I can handle the 72)
I want to try the fasting if I can't do it or lose to much weight I can try the low cal one you mentioned the FMD.
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How frequently will you have chemo?
When I had AC every 3 weeks, I water fasted at least 2 1/2 days before the start of chemo. I broke my fast 24 hours after chemo ended. I lost weight, but I had no GI problems and didn't need any extra meds at home. If you fast 36 hours or less prior to chemo, you won't need to wait so long to eat again. It's been awhile so I don't remember where I read about waiting 24 hours to eat. I broke my fast with easy to digest foods, usually the broth from pho or homemade jello.
For weekly Taxol, I couldn't fast that long, so in total I probably fasted no more than 48 hours a week.
FMD would be good if you're not used to long fasts or shouldn't lose too much weight.
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Thanks for the reply Serenity....I will be getting chemo 1 time a month. Do you think that matters? I am thin 96lbs...but if I am only doing it once a month shouldn't be too bad right? I am not use to fasting long periods...but I think I can handle 24 - 36 hours prior...and 24 after...but I wanted to have something during the infusion to "wake up " the cancer... and then as its chomping on the food its also chomping up the Chemo..lol...but I am thinking that may only work with IVC if I am remembering right..but I think Santa knows more about that....
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Hi Nicole,
Zarovka, who has unfortunately passed, was a big believer in fasting with chemo. If you search her user name you may get some additional insight into the approach she took.
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Once a month gives you more time to get your appetite back and regain the lost weight. Do you know if you'll have any pre-meds? I was given Decadron, a steroid that does raise your blood sugar, but I was able to get the dosage lowered. Be sure to set a bottom threshold for your weight. You don’t want to lose too much.
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With the complete fasting you do not eat anything on chemo day. With FMD you would eat very lightly. The fast itself is what 'wakes up' the cancer and tells the healthy cells to get quiet.
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Santa...so was I thinking (remembering) the eat part (during chemo) was during IVC not Chemo? Also someone just told me not to bother for this first chemo since my PET is the day prior the sugar /tracer they give will pretty much undue all the fasting work..... So I guess I will start next month and do fasting 48hrs before and 24 after...
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I don't have fasting advice but wanted to be sure you know that your Doxil treatment is a form of the anthracycline Adriamycin, not a 5-fluorouracil analog.
There is lots to learn right now so it's good to just take one thing at a time.
The other point you should understand about a PET scan is that the radioactive glucose injected is a very small amount. It will not “undo" the lack of sugar intake however it is important to be at a 'normal' blood level which they will check, perhaps by a finger stick. Then you lie still for close to an hour which lets the stuff disperse throughout the body prior to the scan. After that you can eat!
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not sure if there is anything later than this on the subject of fasting, and it does link references if your into the technical stuff/studies
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Vlnrph.... I didn't know that my Doxil treatment is a form of the anthracycline Adriamycin, not a 5-fluorouracil analog???? I thought* I read on line and heard from someone else that it was in the family of 5FU? Its not in the taxane family though right? If its not 5FU and Not taxane then I have to figure out if certain things interact with it ie: supplements.... Do you have further thoughts on that, like fasting wont work the same with this type as it would on 5FU or Taxanes?
I know about the PET scan I usually am fasted for that every time I have had one. Yes I usually love that we can eat after that
What I also need to figure out is if antioxidants like Astaxanthin interfere now with Doxil. When I googled it I didn't see that Doxil kills cancer by creating a pro oxidative environment...but rather by disrupting the reproduction of the cancer cells.... So I am thinking antioxidants are ok with it??
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so I don't know if anyone can answer this...but if we fast before chemo and during etc...but they give us Dexamethasone as a pre med...does that defeat the purpose as it raises glucose levels???? This is so stressful..
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My goal for fasting during chemo was to minimize the side effects. I did take the steroids along with required pre-meds before chemo though I took the minimum amount. I had fatigue, hair loss, and loss of appetite as side effects without requiring extra meds for nausea or other GI issues. I would do the same fasting now if I needed chemo again.
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Serenety...thanks so you fasted 48 hours before chemo and 24 after and ate nothing or did you eat at chemo infusion?
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Note that I was already used to fasting before chemo. The good thing about fasting is that you can just stop if you feel you need to.
I had no food at all during my fast around chemo. I temporarily lost my taste for coffee, so it was a water fast. As I got closer to my lowest weight I started drinking milkshakes with protein powder to keep my weight up. You may want to eat extra fat and protein before your fast since you don't have much weight to lose. If you can't keep your weight up, you need to stop fasting or try the FMD.
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The advantage of 5 days FMD is being able to eat lightly. But BOTH methods result in same thing. You have to do light eating longer because i is slightly less extreme.
I once did a 3 day water fast in my 30's that left me hallucinating. So I just did FMD. The glucose spike of steroids is is not an issue; I took mine too. The issue VERY low calories and protein (or none) cuing your body to THINK it might be entering a hunger/starvation situation, and it will have to conserve energy to survive (sort of like a very mild form of hibernation). Cued by a big drop in calories and protein, it steps up autophagy of wonky cells, and it tells healthy cells to conserve energy by slowing down as the body waits to receive normal amounts of food again.
Cancer cells CANT get the signal to conserve energy so they are left more exposed and thus have a greater uptake when chemo comes in.
Like Serenity, with FMD my SEs were very slight. I took no zofran once I adopted FMD. Never threw up. No skin issues. No fingernail problems. No neuropathy or other long term effects. That's another plus, sparing the healthy cells from extreme chemo uptake.
In my opinion since your weight is low you might be better off with FMD but that's up to you.
In EITHER case, RE-FEED is very important to fasting. The re feed is what turbo charges immune system. After fasting or FMD, re-feed should be healthy pescatarian nutritious foods. Legumes, whole grains, vegs and fruits, fish-- lots of nutrient dense whole foods so the body gets all the nutrients it need to surge the immune system.
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thank you for your input Santa. How come I seem to be unable to find what the FMD actually consists of?? I went to Longos site and still I am not seeing it am I missing something?? I think I am leaning toward that approach -FMD instead of the Fasting for the reasons you mentioned.
Santa when would the re-feed be? How many hours after chemo infusion? Also what did you eat at chemo?
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Yes it's 10% protein, and roughly half and half carbs and healthy fats for the rest. There is a product called Prolon, that is pre-done FMD meals. I thought I'd rather make my own food. So basically I designed my own diet that observed the rules. The easiest way would be 3 medium avocados-- one for breakfast lunch and dinner... Avocado has the right amount of carbs fat and low protein. No junk.
Basically your diet is10% protein (so, in a 800-1200 cal plan, roughly 100 cals of protein) and the rest carbs and healthy fats. 100 calories of protein is roughly 2 small eggs, or 4 oz lean fish or meat. You can figure out 3 meals with each of them under 300 calories and one or two of them including the protein. I used vegs mostly.
I would do an egg + salsa +1/3 avocado for breakfast.... or I'd do a small 250 calorie smoothie with a few tablespoons coconut yogurt, a glug of nut based kefir, a handful of berries & ice. Salads, veggies, or light brothy & miso-type soups for lunch and dinner - w/ maybe a small amount of protein in the salad or a sprinkle of nuts. Veggies sauteed in olive oil. Seaweed salad. Etc. Think "Spa" food, small portions. No breads... your carbs come from veggies.
Chemo day is always the MIDDLE day of fasting of FMD. The re-feed happens when your fast is over. So with a 5 day FMD, chemo day is day three.... so you begin the FMD for two days prior to chemo, continue FMD through chemo day, and go 2 days more. THEN you refeed, on day 6.
I usually brought a smoothie (or a frozen smoothie, in popsicle form) with me to chemo, and maybe I'd bring some celery sticks or other raw veggies to snack on. I did the frozen smoothie to "ice" my mouth/ Taxotere. On chemo day you are still mid fast so you basically eat whatever you'd be eating at home that's portable. You can have water, plain tea & black coffee.
I'll be curious to hear how your SEs go with FMD. I hope it helps you and lightens those SEs! My worst SE was constipation and with FMD it went away, because my system had very little food in it when chemo cancelled my digestive tract. By the time FMD was over, the constipation was over too and it was much easier to deal with.
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Wow thanks for that detailed reply Santa...that definitely helps. So question... eggs are ok? I did see the Prolon pack they sell wow $250!!! I would rather and would have to do my own diet as well.
I am going to do what you said... Egg + 1/3 avocado for lunch... For breakfast I think I will have just a cup of decaf tea . Then for dinner a salad (I will have to try and get the calculations of how much calories a salad with cherry tomatoes and cucumber red onion and some black olives is)... and then if I have calories left over I will have some nuts after dinner /evening?
When you said carbs from veggies..you mean like caulifower...brussel sprouts right?
I am starting today..(since I will hopefully be getting chemo Thursday providing the Strain Echo I had yesterday is ok and that my blood work Thursday is good) .but I had coffee with a tablespoon of cream..that was my last cup
I plan on having the Egg & 1/3 Avocado for lunch ...I want to have some broccoli and cauliflower for dinner and a salad but I have to check how many calories all that is...? That would mean Sunday is my normal eating day.... Also did I tell you my doctor has agreed to break down the chemo (to start anyway) so instead of 30mg once a month..we will do 15mg twice a month.... we need to see how my liver/bilirubin does. The normal dose for my size would have been 40mg but the other doctors talked with her and they felt based on my bilirubin always running a little high..we should only do 30mg. She said if I do really well on the every 2 weeks we can then try the once a month.Any other thoughts or info you have would be a blessing. Thank you again!
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My pleasure.
Yes google was my friend looking up the calories of things.... Most vegetables are pretty low-cal. I did broccoli, brussels sprouts, cauliflower, grilled eggplant, spinach, cabbage, sprouts, mushrooms, salads. Broths are low cal. A green salad like you describe is good because it feels like a 'normal' meal and it does not have to be tiny.
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Nicole how did the fasting impact you?
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I did good....I was fasted over like 26 hours when I got to chemo...and I had a banana date smoothie (I made) there and I had to have some saltines because I felt light headed. I think I ate regular diet though too soon...Chemo was Thursday I ate regular diet Friday at dinner..I think I was suppose to wait till Saturday. Also I think I have to weigh out more of what I am eating...even though it was all like veggies and salad...it was most definitely more than 600 calories a day...
Next time may be better because I wont be getting really any pre-meds. Thanks for asking
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As I type this at 5am I am about 36 hours into fasting..not FMD but straight up fasting....chemo today at 3pm and I will be at 42 hours at that point. I just read this
UGHHHH so fasting not good with COMT I just can't win. I guess I could do the FMD....but I think ultimately that too would cause stress...because it works like fasting.
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Hmmm, as it did not discuss cancer, it may or may not be outweighed by benefits of fasting. I agree FMD might be the right compromise.
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Hi santabarbarian, you mentioned you did a diy FMD. Did you take multivitamins and omega3/6 supplements?
Thank you.
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bump for tsquare
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I fast before each chemo. It is a water fast. I fast 5 days before chemo the day of chemo and until 24 hours after. I never have side effects when I fast prior to chemo. In have fasted for TCHP anc currently fasting for navelbine
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Hi all - I'm about to start weekly Taxol + Herceptin on Monday 8/15. Has anyone fasted on this regimen, and if so, how did you do it? How were the side effects?
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I fasted on weekly Taxol after I finished AC. I think I fasted no more than 48 hours a week with a goal of waiting at least 6 hours after chemo ended. Currently I try to fast 36-44 hours once a week.
I didn't take meds at home, and I was able to reduce the steroid dose during infusion. I believe the fasting helped with preventing GI side effects.
If you’re comfortable with fasting I would do a longer fast before your first chemo. This isn’t sustainable over 12 weeks, but it’s a head start.
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