Bottle o Tamoxifen
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Caroline - So where are the mice that drank champagne while downing Tamoxifen ? Seriously, before we all go tossing out out oranges and OJ, keep in mind the virtual small print, "Those sources, which have far more tangeretin than fruit, include its dietary supplements and beverages, baked goods and candy flavored with citrus peel oils." This is really what so many docs have been saying all along; it's hard to overdue anything simply by eating it but supplements = too high a dose = Bad, citrus peel OILS = same thing, far more concentrated than that amount we'd get in simply added a grated peel to recipes and sinceit's in keeping, I'm guessing that the "baked goods" reference is to the concentrated orange flavoring added.
Also, the study is 10 years old. If it were well received by the medical community,I'd imagine that we'd see more recent studies.
Of, course, with all that said, we each get to make our own decisions about where to draw the line. At least we have control over some things here !
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For anyone interested, here's the actual text of the study, http://jnci.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/91/4/354
Looks like an interesting read. I'm wondering if maybe it's like grapefruit juice and just shouldn't be consumed within a few hours of taking the Tamoxifen (Keep in mind this test had the mice taking both TOGETHER.) I've only skimmed it so far. Off to an Arts Fundraiser with my 16 year old god son as my "date" (I'm the standin for his Mom who's out of town.)
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Hi MTG,
Well, tangeretin is also on the list of things to avoid, given to me by the pharmacists at the cancer clinic in Calgary who fill my tamoxifen prescription. I was just trying to find a source and if you google 'tangeretin and tamoxifen' there are lots of them. Actually, I had a better source but in copying and pasting it, lost it ;-( and didn't have time to go back for it.
Anyway, as you say, it is up to each of us to decide BUT we can't make informed decisions without all the info. That's why I appreciate this site so much. There is breast cancer and then there is breast cancer and tamoxifen - often two totally different things when it comes to OTC, drugs and food/beverage.
You see, as an IM, if I were to say, over an evening, have a glass of red wine (my favourite), crackers (some I recently bought said soy one of the first ingredients), my delicious cranberry bread-full of mixed peel (yum!!), a helping of curly kale, a Bernard Callebaut chocolate (some of the best) and then follow that with some licorice tea - my Tamox would be impotent for perhaps days. I am not willing to risk the combinations. And as someone said, there is already so much hidden. We need to find yummy, healthy things we CAN eat!
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and as I take tamoxifen just before bed with a snack, I just might pick up that yummy piece of cranberry bread with some licorice tea - it certainly then would be together! (and disasterous for me)
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Oh Boy Everyone,
This is getting more and more complicated. Well....I think this little mouse will just do the
best she can. I always wonder just how much we are affected when it affects a mouse ???
I guess even that varies.
Susie ~~ wonder if eating a few beetles would weaken our Big T ???? They ARE
orange and have a hard peel. LOL
I have to find some humor so I won't cry.
) CatbirdC Bonnie
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Hi bcamnb. I know they say we shouldn't drink on tamox, but, I don't drink that much and I am not going to give up everything I want just because some research says so. I still want to enjoy what life I have and not forbid myself of a few things that the researchers say are a NO to. If others do, I totally understand that. But, a few beers on the weekend for me, I say YES to. lol "Bottoms up!"
MTG, you go ahead and have a glass of wine if you want. I think that is ok. And, thanks for the article info.
And, bcamnb, I would love your cranberry bread recipe. Sounds good to me.
Susie
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And Bonnie..............You crack me up! LOL Keep it up..PLEASEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
Oh, and beetle anyone? LOL
Susie
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I read the study and googled too. It's weird--there was a study in Sept 2008 that showed tangeretin had some anti-cancer properties but that when mixed with water, it inhibited the effects of tamox. It did say that it is in the peel so I wonder if juice is ok--since I wash down my tamox with it every morning!! Ugh...
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THIS IS SOOOOO COMPLICATED !!!!! And you're right Caroline, the combined effects are certainly something to be considered. If you can reprint or maybe photobucket the list given to you by your pharmacist, I'd love to see it. As I've said here before, knowledge is power and simply knowing what foods mave have an impact gives us more power in our decision making.
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bcamnb, EMLA is something that I should talk to the surgeon about? I think his nurse said he could give me ativan or something to make me kind of pre unconcious or something. Does that make sense? I just remember when I had another plastic surgeon do the core biopsy, I felt nothing. And, that is what I want now. I am a big baby...just ask my hubby. LOL
Jeanne
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Jeanne,
I would ask them if it is likely to hurt. If it is, do they recommend you use a topical anaesthetic like EMLA cream? Other than that, I don't know.
Best of luck with it.
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Good morning ladies!
Bc is complicated! It is like you are damned if you do and damned if you don't. Has anyone seen a nutritionist to go over the good and bad foods to have with tamox? I have thought about going to one, but, just haven't yet.
Still having my daily headache since I started taking it.
Gotta go...back in a lil while. Susie
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Like Kew and Revkat, I have read pros and cons about soy and flaxseed. With the flaxseed I've seen much more pros however, and in my book it has too many benefits for me to stop taking it. As Kew said, it does help prevent constipation, and, it's full of Omega 3s, good for skin, mood, cardiovascular etc...
With the soy, it seems to depend on which types, and how much you use. I've heard that the fermented is safe, in forms such as miso and tofu, and the concentrated forms, such as found in supplements and the soy protein bars is bad. I think I'd have to find a course on soy to really feel more knowledgeable about it and come to a decision. I do use soymilk occasionally in place of regular milk, to avoid being exposed to all the hormones. However, now I'm experimenting with other milks, almond, oat, and now rice milk. They all are high in calcium and minerals. I've also found a store that sells organic milk at a good price.
My Onc also said flaxseed is fine, but said to go lightly on the soy. He also frowns upon alcohol, saying studies have shown that for women, more than a couple of drinks a week, can be very dangerous. So I have cut way down on the alcohol, as I used to consume 5-10 weekly. And he recommends a Meditarreanean type diet, which is what I've been following anyway.
As far as phytoestrogens go, many of you would likely be surprised to know that they are present in smaller amounts than in soy in many of our healthiest foods, which is why I don't try to avoid them. They are present in legumes, beans, many fruits and veggies, nuts and seeds. I'm not much of a meat eater, so these are the things I subsist on mostly. One thing not mentioned often by doctors is all the xenoestrogens in our environment in many of our everyday products such as household cleaning products, cosmetics, skin products, pesticides on produce, bug sprays, plus the chemicals and hormones in many of our foods. I'm more afraid of all this stuff than the natural phytoestrogens. The sad part is that it's extremely hard and expensive to limit exposure to all this stuff, it would require legislation banning many dangerous chemicals and we'd have to get all farmers to grow only organic. Almost impossible. So we have tamoxifen or phytoestrogens to hopefully block out all these other harmful estrogenic substances.
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Rose--I agree. That was my take until I had issues with flaxseed and had to stop taking it--although I miss it! I think too with soy it depends what kind and if you overdo it, since it's in so much now. A book I read made sense by saying that the study that caused all the alarm with soy was one with genistein--a nutrient within soy that they stripped out and made into a supplement. So it might be that whole soy is fine. My onc said having it in food on a moderate basis is fine but nosupplements...
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Okay, since I was diagnosed I felt like a cheater. I never really felt sick and I didn't receive chemo. With radiation came the fatigue and dizziness. Then with the tamoxifen 7 weeks today, dizzy, nauseous, constipated, tired, headache, backache, neckache, did I mention tired? Last night I got down on my knees and almost jumped back up ... my knee is so tender. Where did that come from? My DD said "maybe it's from all the extra weight you're carrying around!". Did I need to hear that...the brat! I am now so sick and tired of feeling sick and tired! When will I feel like my old self again? Will these se's lessen? All I have to say today is CANCER SUCKS!
Okay, maybe I feel a little better now. Thanks so much for listening.
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Rose--I like your post.
Ladies--isn't this all so confusing!?!?
Did I read in one of the posts we are not supposed to have chocolate? I have found the Lindt 85% has no soy and only 5 grams of sugar, do I have to give that up too?
Karen
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Donna, I whole heartedly agree..Cancer Sucks! We all have those days and I think I will have many more while on tamox. Not thrilled with it, but, still taking it. Hope you get to feeling better!
Susie
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I have a "moderation in all things" oncologist, and while sometimes it's frustrating that she doen't give strong direction (except about exercise, she definitely wants her patients doing that) mostly when I've researched the lifestyle stuff it seems like moderation is unlikely to do you harm.
I've been on tamoxifen for 14 months now, and my onco is making noises about wanting me to switch to an AI, but I am doing well and I hate to upset my body yet again. My HMO won't pay for the cyp2d6 test, but I'm thinking about doing it on my own and if I'm a good metabolizer I'll just keep on the tamox for 5 years.
Does anyone know, if you have had a good response to other drugs that use the cyp2d6 pathway is that a good indication that you are metabloizing tamoxifen too? Like just one bendryl knocks me out, and years ago when I was on Paxil, the lowest dose was very effective.
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Revkat, I feel as you do about the whole AI thing. My Onc brought that up as well on my last visit, but then he realized I wasn't post menopausal yet, I told him that when I get to that point, I really don't want to take them. I feel that if tamoxifen isn't causing any problems, why switch to something else. Especially something that stops all estrogen production in our bodies, I don't like that idea at all. I believe we really need to have some of it there for many different things to function well.
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Donna- In reading your post I have felt the exact same way! I have called myself a cheater also, as far as not having to go thru chemo treatment. But I kept reminding myself that the treatment that I am doing is not without it's own SE's. And I whole heartidly agree with you CANCER SUCKS BIGTIME!!!!
Susie- I am with you sister! I am not going to give up my occaisonal glass of wine or bottol o' miller lite just for the sake of some report of study. Granted, I am being more conservative with what and how much I do drink, but, God knows, BC sisters need to unwind and have fun too
All of these posts about what to eat and what not to eat are making my head hurt. I am sure I need to improve my diet, who doesn't? But, if we do everything they say we can't what kind of life does that leave us to live?
It's all in moderation in my humble opinion.
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My rads oncologist said to ask the surgeon for some Ativan or something like that. He said then, even though I would be numbed by a local or something, that I wouldn't care. lol Sounds like good stuff, huh?
Jeanne
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...oh, man! I don't know how I got so behind, reading these posts!! Whoever is having the fine needle aspiration, just want to say good luck to you. I didn't have one, so I have no advice. See, I'm no help!!
As far as the Tamoxitest, my onc is one who believes that if you are getting se's, like hot flashes, then it is working... no sense doing an expensive test,and he also doesn't think it is very effective. He is also one who doesn't seem to agree with alot of the new info. that has come up recently.
I didn't hear that oranges would interfere with Tamoxifen. hmm...
Well, I better get going... here is an update on my countdown to Tamoxifen:
ONE MONTH LEFT TO GO!! I see my onc. on Dec. 11th... so ... only ONE MORE MONTH!
I also am kinda nervous about switching to an AI... but Tamoxifen hasn't been totally without problems for me... Aug. 2008, I had to have a D & C, for uterine polyps, caused by Tamoxifen. So if I didn't mention it before.... I'll be glad to be getting off this crazy Tamoxitrain, if even just for a little while...
Hugs
Harley
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Hey Y'All,
There is NO problem with oranges, lemons, tangerines....it is the OIL and the SKIN/PEEL that's the problem. But the skin of apples is supposed to be the best!
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I have to admit that I take all of these studies with a grain of salt. My mother died of breast cancer in 1978 at the age of 50. She never smoked or drank a drop of alcohol in her life. She raised 8 children, all of which are still alive and doing well. I am the only daughter of 6 to have breast cancer, I personally believe that it just happens and we really can't control it. Maybe it's wishful thinking, but I will be more aware of what I eat, but I will still enjoy life and drink and eat when I want to!
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keno41
Sorry about your Mom...
I am the youngest of SIX children, and only ONE was a boy... NO breast cancer in my family...
I tend to agree with you... it just happens... I DO try to stay away from SOY. I also think that you have to take all these new studies with a grain of salt.
Hugs
Harley
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Thanks Harley , Sometimes, I try to figure this out, but I just can;t. My 4 sisters all live pretty much the same life as me, yet I'm the only one who got the cancer. I'm glad that they haven't gotten it, but sad that I have! Some days I say "screw it, I'm going to do what I want because it doesn't matter, then other days I say I had better start exercising and eating better.! Who KNows!
t
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Haven't they found out now that at last 85% of bc's have no family history? I thought I had read that somewhere.
And, I am still going to drink, not like I used to, but, geesh, I like to and I want to enjoy my life. And, booze is in it somewhat, sometimes. lol
Susie
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Is anyone here on an antidepressant? I know that there are only, I think, 3 that you can safely take with tamox and was just wondering. I am not on one, but, sometimes I wonder if it would help at times. Need some guidance I guess. Thanks!
Jeanne
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I have been on antidepressants for a number of years. Most recently Zoloft and Wellbutrin. I was recently switched to Effexor due to the contraindication of the others with the Tamox. I know for me, I would be a mess without them. The Effexor is also supposed to help with the hot flashes so it sort of has a dual purpose for me. I started on it at the same time as the tamox and have not had any really heavy hot flashes...just "warm" flashes..LOL! You may want to talk to your doctor about it.
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Is depression a SE of Taking Tamox? I have been depressesd alot lately and never had this problem before not even durring treatments.
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