natural girls
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Deanna! I believe anything under 20 is considered "good", Estradiol is the bad stuff, so its great that its that low! did you have the 2:16 hydroxyestrone ratio done too?
L
ox
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Merilee, good point! I like the access denied. My husband said, when dealing with people like that, ignore it and move on. Good advice I think!
As Deanna, I also would like to understand about the good and bad Estrogen. Estradiol is the bad stuff, ok. Last I was tested I was "<15 (L)" which indicated I was "post menopausal" (according to this sheet I am looking at), but this is not <10 as Ivory Mom, you stated, hmm. But this was before all my suplements. I wonder if it will go down now that I should be metabolizing Estrogen better!
What is the "bad" estrogen? Does anyone know? Aren't we supposed to be checking the ratio of good to bad? Help apprecaited. Fairy, what is the 2:16 hydroxyestrone ratio?
Spring.
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Hi Springtime! 2:16 ratio is the ratio between 2 hydroxyestrone and 16 hydroxyestrone, 2 being the protective estrogen and 16 being the one that causes all the trouble. So the goal is to up the 2 and down regulate the 16 DIM/13C has been shown to do this naturally. You can actually buy a urine test online for about $125 that way you can check your ratio every few months without having to go the doctor for blood tests, urine tests are very accurate for the ratio.
Hope that helped!
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I didn't know soy lecithin was a leftover from the bottom of the silo. Always something new to learn here. In my ever expanding list of organic things to consume, I've been quite content to include Green & Black's organic chocolate.
I was so disappointed to look at the list of ingredients to see soy lecithin. Looking even closer, I notice that all the other ingredients say 'organic' this or that, but the soy lecithin isn't prefaced by anything. I just sent an inquiry asking if their soy lecithin is organic also and do they have any products without soy.
I trust no one in the same ilk as Roger will be responding! Springtime, you caught a live wire with that one! Geez louise, the man is clearly a nutcase. Any further communication attempts would be a senseless waste of perfectly good brain cells.
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Meg & Spring ~ The reference range for Estradiol on my lab print out says Postmenopausal (untreated) "ND (which I assume is none detected) to 37." So I'm thinking that <10 is fine, and I'm going to keep doing exactly what I've been doing, and stop worrying about it. Spring, I would think <15 is fine, too, although I don't understand why Meg and I have slightly different reference range info' on our reports??? In fact, the other reference ranges on my report don't match yours either, Meg. Strange, huh? But how in the world did you get your Estradiol down to <2 ???
Lorraine ~ I don't know if I had the 2:16 hydroxyestrone test. It looks like the lab is still expecting results on "Estrogens, Total, Serum" and "DNA (DS) Antibodies." Could one of those cover that info? If not, I'll ask my PCP about it when I see her next month.
Mandy, that is so disappointing about Scharffenberger being bought by Hershey! I don't buy it often, but for those special recipes, it's the best! I was in World Market over the weekend, and I noticed they had a bar that was labeled 85% cocoa. I don't remember the brand, but I'll look at it closer the next time I'm there. Deanna
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More reasons to eat turmeric!
Curcumin Inhibits Fat Formation, Dr. Weil
A new study reveals that curcumin, a compound in the spice turmeric, has a remarkable potential to limit the growth of fatty tissue.
Research by the Vascular Biology Laboratory at Tufts University in Boston, Mass., examined the fat tissue deposition in mice fed a high-fat diet for 12 weeks. They discovered that adding curcumin limited the deposition of new fat in the tissues by inhibiting blood vessel formation (fatty tissue, like all animal tissue, needs adequate circulation to supply it with blood-borne nutrients). The conclusion; "Our findings suggest that dietary curcumin may have a potential benefit in preventing obesity." The study was published in the May, 2009 issue of The Journal of Nutrition.
My take: As is so often the case, natural, unprocessed foods such as turmeric are valuable in many ways. The fact that turmeric, an essential component of curry, seems to be responsible at least in part for the low rate of Alzheimer's disease among elderly citizens of India is now well established. Its ability to inhibit fatty tissue formation is yet another bonus, on top of other reasons to eat turmeric that have already been discovered.
3 Reasons to Eat Turmeric, Dr. Weil
Turmeric (Curcuma longa) is a culinary spice that spans cultures - it is a major ingredient in Indian curries, and makes American mustard yellow. But evidence is accumulating that this brightly colored relative of ginger is a promising disease-preventive agent as well, probably due largely to its anti-inflammatory action.
One of the most comprehensive summaries of turmeric studies to date was published by the respected ethnobotanist James A. Duke, Phd., in the October, 2007 issue of Alternative & Complementary Therapies, and summarized in theJuly, 2008, issue of the American Botanical Council publication HerbClip.
Reviewing some 700 studies, Duke concluded that turmeric appears to outperform many pharmaceuticals in its effects against several chronic, debilitating diseases, and does so with virtually no adverse side effects. Here are some of the diseases that turmeric has been found to help prevent or alleviate:
- Alzheimer's disease: Duke found more than 50 studies on turmeric's effects in addressing Alzheimer's disease. The reports indicate that extracts of turmeric contain a number of natural agents that block the formation of beta-amyloid, the substance responsible for the plaques that slowly obstruct cerebral function in Alzheimer's disease.
- Arthritis: Turmeric contains more than two dozen anti-inflammatory compounds, including sixdifferent COX-2-inhibitors (the COX-2 enzyme promotes pain, swelling and inflammation; inhibitors selectively block that enzyme). By itself, writes Duke, curcumin - the component in turmeric most often cited for its healthful effects - is a multifaceted anti-inflammatory agent, and studies of the efficacy of curcumin have demonstrated positive changes in arthritic symptoms.
- Cancer: Duke found more than 200 citations for turmeric and cancer and more than 700 for curcumin and cancer. He noted that in the handbook Phytochemicals: Mechanisms of Action, curcumin and/or turmeric were effective in animal models in prevention and/or treatment of colon cancer, mammary cancer, prostate cancer, murine hepatocarcinogenesis (liver cancer in rats), esophageal cancer, and oral cancer. Duke said that the effectiveness of the herb against these cancers compared favorably with that reported for pharmaceuticals.
How can you get more turmeric into your diet? One way is via the turmeric tea I developed in collaboration with Japanese tea-maker Ito En. There are also extracts in tablet and capsule form available in health food stores; look for supercritical extracts in dosages of 400 to 600 mg, and take three times daily or as directed on the product.
And, of course, one can simply indulge in more curried dishes, either in restaurants or at home. However you do it, adding turmeric to your diet is one of the best moves toward optimal health you can make.
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Whoo hoo! I am doubling my dose and putting one in each back pocket!
Side light...I love love love curry
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Meg,
You bring up a good point. Why take the pill if your levels are so low? They probably do fluctuate somewhat. I'm now wondering why they don't do these tests first on women before giving them a script?
Ok, cancer starts years before it's found. Those years before could have been when we were taking an HRT, or otherwise had high estrogen levels. If we read some reports they think we were all alcoholics when our cancer started. Ok, so we gave up the highsteppin life, stopped taking the hormone replacements, have naturally low estrogen levels now possibly because we're older, so why take the pill? Just give the pill to those who test high and monitor those who do have low levels.
Not to offend, I'm being facetious about the alcohol intake, but I have read things out there. Infuriating because some women never had a drop and they're still here.
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Hi you lovelies,
Have any of you had your hormones tested via saliva with an internet based company? I was looking today and there are *many*. Wondering if any of you have done this and would recommend the one you used?
Fairy, you mentioned a urine test - I've heard of saliva - I wonder if there are benefits to urine over saliva?. If you have a good reference for the 2:16 ratio thing, would you share? I know this was talked about before here and I'd like to look into this a bit more.
Deanna, the tests you are having, are then with your Med Doc or a naturalist? I am wondering what I can get out of my ONC when I go for 4 month check in July...
Spring.
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Meg ~ I'm not a doctor, but I don't see how in the world you would need Tamox or an A/I when your Estradiol is already at < 2. I know you'll ask your onc that question and report back to us if he can explain it!
Spring ~ My primary doc (an internist who looks fabulous herself and recommends a lot of natural stuff) ordered all my blood work because she totally believes that all women need some estrogen (says she has 95 year olds on it) and if I could avoid an A/I or Tamox, she wanted to help me do that. I asked her if she could do my follow up, instead of my onc, and he said she'd rather have him do the follow up because he keeps up on cancer research better than she can. I sort of think that her report to my onc may have been one reason he didn't give me a harder time about getting back on an A/I. She is very well respected ("a doctor's doctor"), and my onc may feel I'm in good hands with her in the picture. I noticed he actually looked closely at the copies of the extensive lab work I brought him last week.
Rosemary ~ I agree with you completely about the high-steppin' life -- HRT, wine, rich foods like hollandaise and creme brulee -- not everyday, but certainly never "the enemy," except in terms of watching our weight. On my, how quickly our view of those things changes! Deanna
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Here is some info on the 2:16 ratio
http://www.breasthealthproject.com/documents/EstrogenMetabolismandRiskofBreastCancer.pdf
You can get the urine test from here, I did find it cheaper, but saved it on my work computer! I can post it tomorrow. I think its worth it to check this ratio every couple of months, thats what I plan on doing.
https://www.healthremedies.com/estronex_216_oh_estrogen_ratio.html
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Fairy, thanks. I have been looking around on Web and there are lots of articles on this. Here is one study I found that was interesting. I am thinking of making banana bread or muffins with 25g of ground flaxseed!!
BACKGROUND: Phytoestrogens, which are abundant in flaxseed and soy, have chemical structures resembling those of endogenous estrogens and have been shown to exert hormonal effects, thereby affecting chronic diseases.
OBJECTIVE: We compared the effects of consuming equal amounts of flaxseed or soy on estrogen metabolism and biochemical markers of bone metabolism in postmenopausal women.
DESIGN: In a parallel design, the diet of postmenopausal women (n = 46) was supplemented with either a placebo, soy (25 g soy flour), or flaxseed (25 g ground flaxseed) muffin for 16 wk. Blood and 24-h urine samples were collected at baseline and at the endpoint. Urine samples were analyzed for phytoestrogens, estrogen metabolites (2-hydroxyestrone, 16alpha-hydroxyestrone), and serum hormones (estradiol, estrone, estrone sulfate). Serum and urine samples were also analyzed for biochemical markers of bone metabolism.
RESULTS: Urinary concentrations of 2-hydroxyestrone, but not of 16alpha-hydroxyestrone, increased significantly in the flaxseed group (P = 0.05). In the flaxseed group, the ratio of 2-hydroxyestrone to 16alpha-hydroxyestrone was positively correlated with urinary lignan excretion (r = 0.579, P = 0.02). In the soy and placebo groups, no significant correlation was observed. No significant change in serum hormones or biochemical markers of bone metabolism was observed within or between the treatment groups.
CONCLUSIONS: Supplementation with flaxseed modifies urinary estrogen metabolite excretion to a greater extent than does supplementation with an equal amount of soy. This modification by flaxseed is associated with an increase in urinary lignan excretion. Despite the shift in estrogen metabolism to favor the less biologically active estrogens, a negative effect on bone cell metabolism was not observed.
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Over eight years ago I was diagnosed and treated for hormone receptive breast cancer at the age of 37. Thankfully at that time I discovered Jane Plant's Book "Your Life in Your Hands." For over eight years now I have not knowingly consumed products derived from cow's milk. Yes, that means no ice cream, cheese, or yogurt ever! I use organic soy products instead. (I know there is a school of thought about soy but I'm convinced that's promoted by the dairy industry/council). Anyway, I'm a mother of three (the oldest is now nearly 16) and am 5'8" and weigh 135lbs. I also eat limited amounts of organic meat since I am leery of the growth hormones fed to cattle in the U.S. There are many, many books written about diet and disease as well as "unkown" studies that I'd be happy to forward under a separate post. Let me know and I'd be happy to do so.
It's a hard pill to swallow but remember "if a pill can change your molecular structure than maybe the food you eat can as well."
Best health to everyone always.
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Not sure if anyone's seen this research that was released recently, but I find it affirms what I believe, and is another reason to decrease inflammation with natural supplements (turmeric, low-dose aspirin [willow bark]).
Markers For Inflammation Discovered In Breast Cancer Survivors Are Linked To Survival
A study led by researchers at Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center has identified two proteins in the blood that could become important prognostic markers for long-term survival in breast cancer patients. The proteins are associated with chronic inflammation, which is known to contribute to cancer development and progression.
Cornelia Ulrich, Ph.D., and colleagues measured the levels of C-reactive protein (CRP) and serum amyloid A (SAA) in 734 breast cancer patients at 31 months after diagnosis. They found that elevated levels of CRP and SAA are associated with reduced overall survival, regardless of patient age, tumor stage, race and body mass index. For example, women with breast cancer who had SAA levels that were in the highest third in amount measured in their blood were three times more likely to die from their disease within the following seven years compared to patients with the lowest-third amount. Similarly, women in the highest third of CRP levels had a two-fold increased risk of death.
"These associations are strong and they suggest that, in the long-term, elevated levels of inflammatory markers predict a woman's chances of surviving after breast cancer," said Ulrich, a member in the Hutchinson Center's Cancer Prevention Program. "It also appears that there may be a threshold effect in that only women in the highest third of inflammation markers had increased mortality."
The study appears in the May 18 edition of the Journal of Clinical Oncology.
"To our knowledge, this is the largest population-based cohort study to date that examined the relationship between systemic inflammation and breast cancer survival, and the first to evaluate SAA as a prognostic marker for breast cancer," said Ulrich.
CRP and SAA are nonspecific, acute-phase hepatic proteins that are secreted into the circulating blood stream in response to cytokines including interleukin-1, interleukin-6 and tumor necrosis factor.
Patient data was drawn from the Health, Eating, Activity and Lifestyle (HEAL) study, a multi-ethnic NIH-funded prospective group of women diagnosed with stage 0 through Stage IIIa breast cancer.
In previous studies, elevated CRP was associated with poor survival in patients with metastatic prostate cancer as well as those with gastroesophogeal, colorectal, inoperable small-cell lung and pancreatic cancers. Preoperative levels of SAA have been associated with survival of patients with gastric cancer and those with renal cell carcinoma.
Likewise, clinical and experimental data suggest that chronic inflammation promotes mammary tumor development. Breast cancer patients have elevated concentrations of CRP before surgery, more so in women with advanced disease, which suggests that CRP may be related to tumor burden or progression.
Cancer survivors with chronic inflammation may have an elevated risk of recurrence as a result of the effects of inflammatory processes on cell growth or the presence of cancer cells that induce inflammation, according to the study.
"It is interesting that markers measured in the blood nearly three years after diagnosis predicted prognosis," Ulrich said. "We also found these associations to hold up after adjusting for a number of factors that associate with systemic inflammation, such as obesity. However, more research is needed to confirm these findings and to get more precise estimates of risk. We also need to learn more about the biologic mechanisms."0 -
Spring, here is the lab that I have always referred people to
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Thanks Lisa.
Stacey, that was fascinating. I am gong to ask about those C-reactive protein (CRP) tests...
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Spring, when I went to my hormone doc, she said that the saliva test and the urinalysis both give slightly different information. She opted for the urine test for me. But I also read that the saliva test is a better test for women who are still mensturating because it can be done at different times of the month as hormone levels keep changing.
The blood test also gives different results, and I think it is not as specific with estrogen levels. For instance my blood test a year ago, said estradiol was <20. The urine test read .4 so I am not sure how to compare the 2. But the level did go down and so the diet and 13C and all, must be making a difference.
Lisa-it is always good to hear from a long term survivor. I hope you will chime in again with some of what you have done. I loved your line:
It's a hard pill to swallow but remember "if a pill can change your molecular structure than maybe the food you eat can as well."
It sure makes sense to me!
Interesting article Stacey-I have read so much about inflammation and cancer. It sure seems like this needs to be taken more seriously.
Now back to NAME THAT BIKE! I took my little baby to the bike shop to get it put together correctly, so I am picking it up today. I was thinking about Bambi. A tribute to my Italian heritage and didn't Hefner always have a buxom bambi in his entourage. I may not be buxom anymore but my bike sure is a bit chunky! LOL
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Stacey ~ What exactly is inflammation? Is that the same as retaining water? I'm asking because ever since chemo and also getting off HRT, I feel like I'm carrying around 5 extra lbs. of water weight. I've always taken organic alfalfa for the micronutrients in it, and it has also always prevented any water retention. But, now it hardly helps, even though I'm taking more of it. I've also been adding fresh parsley (also helps with water retention) to my protein shakes, but my fingers feel tight and swollen and I can't even get my rings on after I've done my 4 mile morning walk. I've been thinking water retention, but is that the same or related to inflammation?
As a related aside, a friend of mine who is on natural HRT, recently showed me that her previously swollen finger joints (arthritis, I guess) have totally gone away since she's added Tumeric and Resveratrol to her supplements.
Another thing I've wondered is if the natural Crystal Deoderant Stick I now use, which seems kind of salty, is getting absorbed into my system enough to affect water retention???
I know someone on this thread has recommended dandelion root for water retention. I've hesitated to add that because I'm already taking so many supplements, but I sure want to get this figured out, especially if it's "inflammation" and related to recurrence! Deanna
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Deanna,
I drink dandelion root tea when I'm feeling bloated. It's a little bitter but then so is green tea,
Soprano
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Deanna, I would love to find a Primary doc just like yours. How did you go about finding her? I live in Long Island and see that you are in CA. Maybe the thinking there is more towards the natural and alternative or maybe I just need to really search around and ask questions on the phone about different doctors. Anybody here live on Long Island who has a good primary doc that believes in hormonal balancing? I can't afford to go to someone alternative unless they would be covered under my insurance.
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Deanna, green tea may work well. It will be less bitter if you don't use boiling water and only steep it about 3 mins.
Inflammation is one of the body's normal functions to help speed nutrients to an injured site for example. But the problem occurs when it isn't "shut off". Here is a link to Dr Weil's site that talks about the mechanics of inflammation and how diet contributes: http://www.drweil.com/drw/u/id/QAA359518
Here is his diet to reduce inflammation which also includes supplement amounts: http://www.drweil.com/drw/u/ART02012/anti-inflammatory-diet
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Not all green tea is bitter. Carrington farms makes a nice one and is very inexpensive. I drink 6 cups of green tea a day.
http://flignersmarket.elsstore.com/brandstores/220-carrington/categories/1369-green-tea
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vivre ~ I vote for Bambi! Very cute, and if it feels right to you, that's what's important!
Allie ~ Great info' on inflammation. Reading that though, I don't think that's what I have. I think I just have good old water retention for some strange reason. Also, the diet Dr. Weil suggests is pretty much how I eat. The only thing I don't do is that last supplement he suggested -- alpha-lipoic acid. Does anyone else take that? He suggests it for metabolic syndrome -- another term I've heard on here recently, although I forget who posted about it.
Merileee ~ Thanks for the green tea recommendation. I'll look for that brand the next time I buy some. I've also noticed Japanese folks at the large health food supermarket I shop at buying Uncle Lee's brand (as I stood there one day trying to figure out which one to try). Oh, and speaking of teas, I recently bought a loose detox tea at a spice & tea shop that is really good. It's very minty, and tastes great iced. I have no idea what brand it is because it was in a huge glass cannister and they just packaged a few ounces for me. But it's really good and does help with detoxing. Just thought I'd mention it if anyone's interested. I know I've seen "Detox Tea" bags, and if they contains mint or peppermint, it's probably the same or similar.
Rose ~ I can't tell you how to find a traditional MD who is also knowlegeable in natural healing. Obviously, they're few and far between. One thing you might do is ask at the health food stores if they know of anyone. Maybe they'll have a recommendation for you. You could also post your question as a separate, new thread, being sure to note your location. That way, women who may not read this thread, but who may know of someone, will see your question. Deanna
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I use the kombucha tea for daily detox- Have one at lunch every day
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Allie, Thank you to those links on anti-inflamatory. Dr. Wiel has a "Vitamin Advisor" that I am going through now, interesting. At the end it gives you a complete recommendation of what he feels you should take. There were a few new to me:
- Magnesium Glycinate - Mag-Glycinate is a readily absorbable form of magnesium - an important co-factor in many metabolic reactions, including energy production and bone mineralization, and is vital to normal muscle and nerve activity, including heart rhythm and intestinal motility.
- Triphala - Triphala is a Ayurvedic herbal mixture of three fruits that help tone the muscles in the digestive tract. It is used traditionally to address constipation and poor bowel tone, and to support bowel health and regularity.
I drink Tazo Zen green tea, not bitter. Tazo Lotus is good too. But boy, some others sure are bitter! I wonder if a smooth green tea is as beneficial as a bitter one??
I would love to find any MD doctor like the one Deanna has. Sigh.
Spring.
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Deanna, I take alpha lipoic acid for the neuropathy in my hands and feet. I have pretty sever swelling in my left foot and it hasn't made a difference in that. I do believe it makes a big difference in the neuropathy and it's also a very powerful anti oxidant. I take 300 mg twice a day. I don't know about metabolic syndrome.
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I take alpha lipoic acid with C. It supposedly keeps our anti-oxidants running around longer to do their job.
For water retention, I take potassium. It regulates our liquids, plus its overlooked a lot and can get out of balance when we're taking high doses of Ca and Mg. It's also needed for our bone health. The amount of potassium that's needed is amazing. 4-6 grams daily. I get like a 10th of that amount in.
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Got a reply from Green & Black's regarding the soy lecithin in their chocolate. It's not organic. sigh Well, at least they answered the question and didn't beat me over the head with reasons why I should think it's ok to eat soy.
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Can't believe they left that off some of their labels! (This is the Scharffenberger.) I checked their baker's chocolate in the store tonight and saw that the 70% that I have at home that doesn't mention soy lecithin, does list it in the baker's chocolate. So I don't know if the requirements changed or what--but they changed their label. Sorry for the mis-information!
The nutritionist I spoke to said that I didn't have to be concerned with soy lecithin (estrogen-wise) but I know many of you are avoiding it...
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Trader Joe's carry organic 75% Dark Chocolate without soy.
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