A place to talk death and dying issues
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Maybe I’m just weird, not maybe, I know I am but I don’t get funerals. Why are we expecting our love ones in the depth of their pain to play host and put themselves on display?
Personally, I prefer my loved ones to simply have a stiff drink and agree that death sucks.
Does anyone else see it this way or do you get something more out of the tradition?
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I'm with you, IlaMae. No funeral for me. Cremation, party, then move on.
I'm not sure I'm supposed to be on this thread, but I am dealing with two dear friends struggling with stage IV cancer. Both young, one 44, the other 35. I wonder sometimes how to talk to them. I want them to be able to talk to me honestly, and vent if they need to, but I don't want to be negative about their prognosis.
Apologies if I'm not supposed to be here. Stay safe and be well.
Trish
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I agree. It will be cremation for me and no ceremony or obituary. Every time I went to a high school reunion, they have pictures of fellow classmates who passed. I seriously do not want to be put on that poster. I hope no one ever finds out. I haven’t talked to anybody from my high school in years anyway. It’s none of their business.
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Trish, thanks for your response, I appreciate it.
Technically, this thread is stage IV only but I don’t mind your popping in with relevant chat.
As for your friends, I’m sure they feel free to share most things but some thoughts we keep to ourselves or other stage IV friends. One reason is that we don’t want to scare early stagers too much. Another thing, I think, is that it can sometimes be difficult to openly discuss the dark stuff with those who still have the reasonable expectation of a lengthy future. There are so many things we (especially the younger ones) will never experience, discussions about future grandchildren, retirement, etc can be extremely hard to hear. I’m happy for my friends who have so much to look forward to but it’s also a reminder of how unfair cancer is.
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Illimae,
I think funerals can be very helpful for those who are grieving. I don't know if you have lost someone close to you yet. It's a strange feeling-like how can the world go on like nothing happened when my loved one is no longer here? Funerals give the bereaved something to plan and do in those strange days after a death. A funeral allows for the dear ones of the dead and survivors to come together and offer comfort and remembrances. I think it is really wonderful to remember and celebrate the unique and precious life of someone who has died. For those of us who have faith in life beyond this one, it is also a time to affirm that faith with others. So that is what I get out of funerals but I can understand why you and others may not want to have one.
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Hi Illimae,
I struggled for a long time with funerals but when my father passed away at a relatively young age I understood the importance. In particular, I recognized the importance to those left behind - it was significant to me that my friends were there to support me (and it was also significant that some chose not to). I made a commitment to myself after that I would make an effort to participate in the ritual when someone I knew passed.
Having said that, no funeral for me as I have no significant other or children. Hoping I outlive my 89 year old mother. And dogs don’t do funerals.... Sadie won’t be much of a hostess.
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Illimae, I can say that I took something away from each of my parents' funerals. For my dad, it was comforting to see him at peace, as he had not been himself for many years. For my mom, it was a sense of closure, as she went fairly quickly, and I had been overseas for a few years. In both cases, the support and camaraderie from my siblings (I have many, but we are all spread out across the country and beyond), reminiscing about the love, happy times - and funny stories - was affirming. It was also nice to see the other people who cared about them and I never felt as if we were on display.
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In the last four years, my brother and I lost our sister, our mother and our father. And I have stage 4 cancer. We didn't have services. At first we kept thinking, when things settle down a little, when the weather improves... Finally I admitted: I don't like funerals and I don't want to plan one or participate in one or attend one. He agreed. We are both divorced and don't have spouses to take any of the burden on, we're not religious, and relatives and old friends live far away, or are no longer alive. My brother is working more than 80 hours a week, and I am tired most of the time.
It doesn't mean we didn't love them when they were alive. It just means we grieve and commemorate in our own way, without a ceremony.
I also don't want any gatherings for me when I go. Especially if the pandemic is still a threat. That just seems like a no brainer.
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Thanks for all the replies, I appreciate the different perspectives and I’m glad some of you get some out of it.
Chicagoan, I’ve been incredibly lucky to have not lost anyone close to me, except my dogs. I do recall attending a funeral for a very good friends daughter who died in a car accident at 20. He was in so much pain and exhausted, I just couldn’t believe he was expected to stand in the line a greet us, it seemed cruel somehow.
I’ll be cremated, no religion, no service, just whatever DH wants. My only requirement is that he never say I lost my battle. Cancer will likely murder me, so if people feel anything about my death, I’d prefer outrage to pity.
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It's an interesting topic. I think all lives should be commemorated by some kind of service. But what type of service is up to interpretation. The time of 3 days of showing and a funeral are pretty much past and I have no problem with that, much too drawn out. Now it seems one day of showing and a funeral the following day or all in one day is the norm. I've been to some funerals where everything is done at the church, a showing, the service and then lunch after with no trip to the cemetery and that seems to work well too..
Over 20 years ago, both my parents passed within nine months of each other and the funerals were beautiful. I have a huge tendency to be in denial that a person has died, so the funeral is a good reality check for me.
This year a couple women in town, both in their 90s, passed. They'd lived their entire lives here, many of their kids, grandkids and great grandkids continue to live here so practically everyone in town knew someone from these families. Normally funerals like that would bring most of the town out to honor the legacy and community contributions of these women, but sadly due to Covid it couldn't happen.
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My great uncle, when he passed, one stipulation of his will was that, after the service, there was a big party held at a certain restaurant and his estate picked up the entire bar tab - open bar, top shelf liquor for as long as it took. He loved the socialization aspect of having a good drink or sitting at the bar, and, in fact, more than few places in a three county radius either still have his picture tacked up above the bar or the bartenders know the family and reminisce about him when a family member shows up. I've since come to appreciate that it was his last act to celebrate his life just as he would have wanted it, even if he coudn't be there himself.
My family is small, not religious, and I have few ties to where I am from. Been considering cremation but with ashes scattering at a favorite place. Maybe a notice in my alumni magazine if there had to be a notice, just for posterity online I guess. But I agree with Mae - I don't want any of this 'lost her battle with cancer'. I didn't choose to engage with it, it picked a fight with me.
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I grew up visiting cemeteries. On birthdays, anniversaries of death, just whenever, and the big one, on November 1 - Catholic All Saints Day followed by All Souls on the 2nd. We would go in the evening and set up candles all over the graves. I think it helps people to have a *place* to go and grieve and remember and then go away from it.
Funerals are for the living - to say goodbye, to have their loss and grief acknowledged. I also like the Jewish custom of sitting shiva for 7 days. It marks a transition. You're now widowed; you're now an orphan; your child has died. ... (stupid how there isn't a word for people whose children die). I think we do a poor job of marking and delineating transitions in our lives in modern culture. It doesn't have to be a funeral but I think there should be 'something'; imo of course, ymmv
That said, I don't know what I want. I need to think it through & discuss it with family. If my parents don't predecease me there will be a funeral for sure because they will need it & I get that. I'm atheist so I need to make this whole thing up. Having the physicists funeral talk read I guess https://futurism.com/the-science-of-death-a-eulogy...
I think the celebration of life events are interesting but at some level I don't get them because again, I think people need to feel grief and sorrow - which doesn't mean no laughter and remembering good stories; and good Catholic wakes are often a big party so it permeates through many cultures... but there needs to be space for a lot of grieving and I wonder if our culture is too uncomfortable with grief and so we sweep it under. Seven days of sitting shiva seems extreme to many now. Who goes into mourning? Who wears a black armband? It's just like everyone is supposed to get over it.. I think it's problematic...
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I don't care for the phrase “lost the battle" against cancer, either. I've written my obituary and it says “she was diagnosed with metastatic breast cancer in 2010 and courageously continued to live with it for ___ number of years." So far, it is 9+ years, and if I've proven anything, it's that one can continue to live a full life in spite of the diagnosis. There will be sadness over my passing but people can be comforted that I made the most of my time. And perhaps the way I dealt with mbc can be an inspiration to others.
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illimae: I don't get funerals either but it is sometimes good to mark a loved one's passing in some fashion. My water burial is eco-friendly and I do love the West Coast and its ocean. My friends and family would see it as a good excuse to get bundled up and go out on the water. I would want them to to toast my departure from this world with a really well made, stone cold vodka martini in remembrance of me. Maybe play "Not So Sweet, Martha Lorraine" by Country Joe and the Fish --- really loud so I might hear it from the other side (if there is one, which I personally doubt). Hee hee
DivineM: I really dislike the "lost/fought bravely" too. You hear and read it so often is almost seems trite and hollow. Your obit is perfect. It is not about losing a fight, it is about living fully. May it be for many more years. 9+ !! . You are an inspiration.
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moth: have you checked the "Is There Anybody Out There Who Is Atheist"? ...or something like that thread. Much of it is entertaining, some quite thoughtful. It was a response to those who state "I leave it up to God" or other phrases that give them comfort. It would be good to have that kind of faith, but it is not me.
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I do agree that marking the occasion in some way can be helpful, I just don’t appreciate the whole funeral show as I’ve seen them.
Maybe it’s the California girl in me but I’ve always thought that paddle outs were beautiful in their simplicity and brief timeframe.
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moth, it’s true, many people are uncomfortable with the topic of death and our culture seems to want to keep it hidden in the background. After my parents died, I read an excellent book about life after loss that helped me work through my grief, to understand it, I really had no idea how to cope with the loss of my parents so the book was extremely helpful. One of the first things I learned was that it takes two or three years to work through grief. But you still find times of happiness as you continue to deal with the loss. So I often mention that grief may take several years to work through when I talk with someone who’s had a loved one die. None of this two weeks and your over it.
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The funerals I've been too, it always looked so hard on the family having to stand and greet a line of people. Exhausting physically and mentally. Sometimes I do think the funeral and all that comes with it can give closure, several times however people who were never in much contact with the person in general or in the last months or years of life show up to be seen etc. Its the oddest thing.
I dont want my hubby to have to deal with acquaintances showing up who have ghosted us for years wanting a sick form of attention when I'm gone or just all the fuss of having to play host as were when I know he would just want space to simply grieve. I've chosen simplicity. Simple pine box, wild flowers. No extravagance. No funeral, no processions, no wake, no meet n greet. Just lay me to rest. My hubby said in lieu of a funeral he would want to do a memorial a month or two out. I jotted down some songs I like and some things I'd like said if he still goes forward with one. I think doing that would just be easier on him and that's really all that matters to me.
I came across this mini doc not long ago. It is a death with dignity case but how this lady, Jil was treated, I felt those that loved her gave her such a wonderful departing gift. I'm not sure how I feel about it personally as a personal choice, however it does make you think, especially concerning others who want to avoid suffering. I think DWD has been brought up a few times in this thread and sharing this isn't meant to steer conversation in that direction, however this family's approach to Jils death was touching I thought. The last song to her at the end brought me to tears. Caution, video might not be for everyone.
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I am working very hard right now to get a death with dignity law passed in my state, NM. I believe it is the right thing. I would do (when I was ready) it if I lived in a right to die state. I would not have a party on the day, though. Kinda weird. Thanks for posting this, Rabbit. I didn't know about the limited "shelf life" of the medication. Has the medication changed? How old is this video? The shelf life used to be almost unlimited. And it was not a liquid. I think people used to mix up this paste like substance that was really yucky. Is it different in different states? For someone so involved, there is a lot I don't know. Lida also said the medication is very expensive.
Thanks again, Rabbit. Important stuff.
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Jaycee, this video is from January 2018. Jil did DWD Sept 21st of 2017. The bill that gave her this right was signed June 2016. Jil resided in California. Maybe this is how it's done in California. There was another video I saw of a woman who did DWD and she had brain cancer, and it was just a pill she could take when she wanted with no shelf life or premeds mentioned. I think maybe its different depending on the state your in. Maybe could be part of the legislation you push for your state. How it's done and cost.
I must say I was alittle shocked at the death party kinda thing a couple days before she took the medication initially when I watched this video the first time. But, on the other hand. People save their greatest words etc for people when they are dead, why not let the person hear it while alive. It's a different way to approach death. I dont know its something I would do, party before my demise, but it makes you stop and think about alot of things.
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Jaycee, I do Freebooksy. All the books on the Kindle they offer are free. They don't have quite the variety as unlimited, but enough so I am busy. You can choose which ones they offer by genre and I can get a daily listing if I want.
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Thanks, Chris. I'll check it out. I'm very happy with my Kindle Unlimited. I have become addicted to memoirs and they have plenty. I especially enjoy memoirs by people with medical issues or their caregivers. I don't know what that says about me but it it's a true addiction. When I try to read something else, I stop after a few pages and go find another memoir. I read about 4-5 hours a day so I need volume. Kindle Unlimited is keeping me going for now.
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I have been a long time participant of these threads...at least in the first 4 years of my diagnosis. Now I come by to check on others. I was hoping you wouldn’t mind me posting and talking out loud in this particular thread. My mother has stage 4 ovarian cancer. This is her 3rd year. She decided to go on hospice a few days ago. These last couple weeks have been extremely hard. Weakness, loss of appetite, confusion, so much confusion, and pain. I think we have the meds figured out now and therefore some of the confusion issues. I’m just so sad and angry. I want more time. It’s not fair my children and especially my young nieces will not know her. I’m a completely spoiled girl in that I had 3 of my 4 grandparents alive well into my 30’s. I want that. I can’t go on without my mother. She is my best friend. We live 30 minutes apart. She has done everything for me and my family especially when I was diagnosed. I was prepared to go first. Not her. I just need to vent. I’ve been sucking it up and in fix it mode it seems. I hate cancer..
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hugs, Kjones
There were some books recommended on the topic of death (and life...) and I believe " The five invitations " is a helpful one st times like these..
Or to be fair I think every grown up should read this book , like a page of it every day .
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Kjones, I’m so sorry you’re having to go through this. I just want to give you a virtual hug.
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Kjones, I am so sorry to hear about your mother. I do hope that now that her medications have been adjusted, she can be comfortable in the time you have left together. Losing someone you love so much is so hard. In many ways it is more difficult and painful for those of us left behind than for the person who passes. Those who are left feel the loss, experience the pain and emptiness, and try to find sense in something that has none. All you can do now is enjoy the time she has left. Talk with her about all the wonderful memories she has given you. Laugh with her. Hug her. Tell her you love her. Share your stories and memories with your children and nieces. Maybe you can write them down and add some photos. My mom passed away several years ago, and I still talk to her sometimes. Yes, maybe I am crazy, but it makes me feel better. Often my one-sided conversations start wit “Mom, you won’t believe this”. My heart goes out to you. I know that my words cannot lessen the pain you are experiencing.
Hugs and prayers from, Lynne
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Kjones - virtual hugs. 50sgirl is right - tell your mom everything you told us. Tell her all those good things now rather than in a eulogy. Peace to you as you walk this road
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Hello Kjones
You are going through a very difficult time at the moment. The loss or potential loss of a parent is very hard to bear, although sadly it is something that we all have to go through sometime.
In case it helps, I lost my father last year but did everything I could within my capabilities to make his passing as loving as I could within the circumstances. You sound like a very loving daughter who is doing everything she can.
I feel for you and wish for you the peace that I feel .
Love
Alice
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This is a really good article about end of life. The list of elements "needed for a patient to experience a good and peaceful death" gets a little carried away. Even I am less demanding than that. But would that our doctors would accept even a small portion of these ideas. I may print it out and give it to current MO. It seems to have been written by a nurse who works with BC patients so I thought it appropriate here. My favorite quote is this: in the US, "As high as a rate as 80% of patients with some form of advanced cancer received (chemo) therapy at the end of life, with some receiving it literally during their last week of life.
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Thank you, Jaycee49. I posted this on another thread, but I'll add here that my husband and I read a book called, "Being Mortal: Medicine and What Matters at the End", by Atul Gawande. My SIL recommended it. I would also recommend it to those with a Stage IV diagnosis or their families. I don't think my father is ready to read it, though. He's still too distraught over my diagnosis.
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