Bioidentical hormones..is anyone taking after breast cancer?
Comments
-
karen1956: I know about the pellets...I was going to get them after I tried out the BHRT externally for about a year to see how I responded to it, but then I was dx with bc, so that's now off the table.
I would be interested in the link talking about benefits for bc survivors. It's ok to post.
0 -
I had been using pellets for almost two years when I was diagnosed with DCIS. I had used oral Estrace for almost a year before that. I LOVED the pellets. I miss them so much. I'm considering using testosterone pellets again, if I can talk my onc. into agreeing. Lots to consider.
0 -
Circles, dont go on Gary Null's website and start reading about the abusive medical establishment..cause some docs are good and some nurses are angels but I feel it may be the FDA thats the US problem (not to mention the big drug companies stretch the truth)cause if we get any good pharma from researchers they have to clear it thru the FDA whereas its a little different in Europe and other places. I dont like asking about other treatments and being told "its experimental" when they've been doing it for yrs in Germany! But I went cold turkey off the bio id hormones and most of the time I'm fine but some nights I wake up drenched with hot flashes. Guess I'll get a prescrip for tamoxifen and turn on the AC and put on my bikini..lol.... Will a dr prescribe a bio id if they know you had bc in your past?
0 -
Layla2525: Probably not until there is more research done on them, and we all know that isn't going to happen anytime soon.
0 -
Here is the link to the article that my DH sent to me....I also googled some other articles that were similar....and looked into doctors/providers in the Denver area that Rx BHRT.....would love your feedback,,,,thanks...I see my onc later this month and want to ask him about it.....I've been a bad girl and haven't been to the gyn for 2 years.....Thanks, Karen
http://modernmedicallv.com/services/hormones/hormone-pellets/
0 -
Rosieo Sorry I got my numbers off a bit. Here is one piece of research data..
M.D. Anderson Cancer Center - among those who had stage one or stage two disease with spread to no more than three lymph nodes and who did not undergo radiation, the overall locoregional recurrence rate was just 2.3% at ten years.
The study had slightly lower percentages for no node involvement and higher for more node involvement. I would prefer to look at the overall percentage rate - makes me feel more positive about the whole issue of not getting radiation. Pollyanna?
I also read that as we age the risk of recurrence goes down. I don't have that piece of research available but that is truly what it said. It has also been stated that the older we are the more indolent the cancer is and grows much more slowly so I assume that ties into the recurrence being lower as we age.
Kathy
0 -
1openheart, I'm exactly 4 years out from dx, and I started using just a very tiny bit of Testosterone a few months ago -- RX'd by an excellent naturopathic doctor I trust. But I'm also solidly post menopausal, slim, and I walk & do weight training, so my estrogen is extremely low. I'm not sure what I would do if I was pre-menopause. Deanna
0 -
I just did a quick research on testosterone pellets for bc survivors. I don't know how to link but there is a page here on BreastCancer.Org that tells what is presently known. The title is ASCO Breast: Implants May Quell Hormone Deficiency. The women in the study discussed had completed bc treatment five years prior.
Apparently it's still early in finding out if this works so it might be risky.
dib823 I am very interested however in knowing how this works for you. I am supposed to start Armidex and worried about the dire effects of lack of all estrogen.
Kathy
0 -
Interesting article, Kathy. I hadn't seen it before. Thanks for finding it.
I'm using a Testosterone cream, and I'm going to be repeating a Complete Hormones Test (24 hour urine test) this month. I'll let you know how it comes out. Deanna
0 -
I really do believe that it will take some coordinated effort by bc patients to get people who are knowledgeable about hormonal issues appointed to each one of our tumor boards before we will see much awareness and change in the emphasis on intelligent hormonal analysis focused on cancers of all types. And it would mean implementing training for endocrinologists specifically in cancers before there would be any who had what we need. Right now they handle very specific "parts" of the endocrine system, but there needs to be coordinated focus on how the entire endocrine system regulates the body processes.
0 -
chatsworthgirl,
I too am post menopausal. In fact, I had a hysterectomy several years ago for big fibroids. I kept my ovaries due to bone density issues. I am slim as well. I am working on being more active...yoga and walking. My problem with that is being consistent.
I came across a study where testosterone was combined with aromatase inhibitors in pellet form. I don't have the link handy right now, but I recall that the women reported a big reduction in side effects and better quality of life.
0 -
Layla,
Yes, my Integrative Doctor recommened a low dose estrogen to balance the bad estrogen. For this reason I am tempted yet I also know the bio identicals I was on before fueled my cancer into faster growth. So I am thinking of not using the bio identicals again. But on the same lines I am also not taking any hormone blockers so I am not terribly miserable without the HRT. A few hot flashes at night, extra blankets for the husband and the fan on makes them managable. Am I making the right choices? I really don't know but I hope so.
0 -
AA--you keep mentioning getting endocrinologists on tumor boards, but how many women's cancers actually get presented before tumor boards? (I'm not being snarky, I really don't know! And who actually makes up the tumor boards? Many small communities that may have tumor boards probably don't have an available endocrinologist. And you'd need an endo who specializes in cancer. Even in our big metropolitan area, I don't think we have one!)
So, while it sounds like a good idea, putting it into practice "across the board" may not be the least bit realistic. This is a big frustration for you, I know. I'm just mulling thoughts here...
0 -
Hi AnneW,
Good comment, thanks.
In rural communities there often are not oncologists, either, or oncologic radiologists, or treatment facilities for radiation. In rural Alaska, patients are tremendously handicapped in that respect in that they end up having to be seen in metropolitan areas for evaluation, far from home. That is where their cases go before a tumor board.
I raised the question once when I saw my Seattle surgeon. We have someone there to speak in our behalf about the importance of surgical issues, someone there to speak on our behalf about the importance of radiation issues, and someone there to speak in our behalf about chemical treatment. But we have no one there to speak in our behalf about the lifelong issues involving the endorcrine system in terms of the impact that surgery, radiation and chemical manipulation have on us and our cancer, to point out the advantages and disadvantages in arriving at the solution that would be best for that particular patient. He thought that an endocrinologist would be bored silly having to listen to the specialists. I replied that hopefully an endocrinologist would not be there just to listen to the discussion about cut, burn and slash, but would be there as a specialist, to speak, and those who are doing the cutting, burning and slashing might benefit from listening. Do you think the idea has merit, or do surgeons and oncologists and radiologists already know what there is to understand about the interactions of the endocrine system and breast cancer? I ask because the breast is a gland, and because there are clearly questions about its relationship to the metabolic process (thyroid, gyn issues involving testosterone, ERT, metabolic issues of increased bc risk due to weight gain from chemical manipulation by the tumor board recommendations, etc.0 -
Kathy
So it looks like being a little older is good in these circumstances.
Thanks
Rosieo
0 -
Lots of "glands" get cancer--prostate, testicles, pancreas...I'm sure oncologists have a better than average knowledge of the endocrine system, but for tumor boards, I'm not sure if seating an endo is cost-effective. That said, a consult with an endo who specializes in oncology may be. If that person can be found.
0 -
There seems to be 4 different practices here in Denver...I've contacted them all by email and have heard back from 2 or 3....one of the doc is a BC survivor herself....none seem to take health insurance...the labs...both blood and saliva run about $500+....and with follow up visits....to just get started is about $1000...well worth it if it does something to change my life for the positive....the doc's office I talked with today will only see me if he has my onc's blessings...I see my onc on the 23rd...will talk to him about BHRT then...only really looking at testosterone...as my BC was highly ER and PR+, don't even want to look at taking ER or PR......I endured 3 1/2 years of AI's and have no plans to go down that route again....I tried testosterone a couple years ago without success...I think it was my onc who Rx it....so hoping he will be agreeable now...onc also Rx e-string...
When I was having kids, I was Dx with luteal (sp) phase deficiency....4 miscarriages...to carry a pregnancy to term I took vaginal progesterone from the time I ovulated till my period or till the end of first trimester.....Thank G-d I have 2 wonderful children.....I have thought many times , if the progesterone was a contributing factor to my BC, but without it, I would not have my kids, so I really don't go there.....BC is in the past,.....just need to find a future of feeling good and full of life.....
Still exploring the BHRT....trying to figure out who to see in Denver.....but pretty sure going to give it a try.....it seems that the docs that do pellets don't Rx them till they know the right dosage...4
Any feedback is appreciated...
0 -
Lots of different body parts get surgery, and I'm sure surgeons have a better than average knowledge about using surgery anywhere on the body, so for tumor boards, why do we have surgeons that specialize in the area of the body where the tumor originated?
If we haven't ever given the attention to the importance of the endocrine system and trained endocrine specialists for dealing specifically with cancer of the endocrine glands, then does it make sense to continue not to do so?
A.A.
0 -
bump!!!!
0 -
Are we ever going to move away from cut, slash and burn if those are the only specialists who direct treatment by sitting on our tumor boards?
The research into the endocrine system and the relationship to cancer is warming up.
How cost-effective are oncs?
A.A.
0 -
A.A.
In my case the oncs recomendations are not good enough. There is no way I'm willing to interfere with my hormonal system. It needs tweaking. But how? As soon as my burning sessions are done I'll get into that phase of reseach. In the mean time I'll read the A.A. take on this......THANX
0 -
chef127,
Your dx is more puzzling than most. 4 cm/stage II with 1/8 nodes, yet grade 2 and HER2-. The question for me that is worrisome in looking at that and considering options for treatment (chemo and otherwise) would be to try and get some professional knowledge about what would result in that kind of growth and body spread while still having a less aggressive biology? And why would a slow-dividing cancer be responsive to chemotherapy?
A.A.
0 -
Exactly A.A.
I'm pretty much confused about my Dx by the drs and my own take on it. I'm no dr but I have done a little research. It appears "to me" that my ca is not as serious as the drs,oncs and surgeons, are treating it to be. I may be too confident in my interpretation of it. wishful thinking perhaps????
I started a thread in the Mixed type of breast cancer forum which explains it in more detail if you care to read it............................Thanx
0 -
Very good idea, interesting posts there.
A.A.
0 -
The breast is a gland, but unlike the other glands, it does not produce any hormones, on the contrary, it depends on the hormones produced by other glands.Removing the breast does not influence other glands, really.
I don't see why you would need an endocrinologist on a surgery board. We definitely need one on the board when it comes to chemo and anti-hormonals though. Trust me, not all endocrinologists even know about the effect AI's have on the thyroid and andrenals, just to give an example.
0 -
Day: "on the contrary, it depends on the hormones produced by other glands.Removing the breast does not influence other glands, really."
??? Then it does not matter whatsoever in terms of patient care whether the breast cancer treatment involves other glands that do affect the patient?
Day: "I don't see why you would need an endocrinologist on a surgery board."
Do you realize that you personally consider the tumor board to be limited solely to being a "surgery" board? In part you may not realize that a tumor board supposedly is intended to determine the recommendations for treatment of the cancer and the patient as a whole, not just surgical treatment.
Your post is contradictory to me so I'm puzzled by it. I think but am not sure that you are both agreeing and disagreeing with me, so..... I don't quite understand.
"We definitely need one on the board when it comes to chemo and anti-hormonals though. Trust me, not all endocrinologists even know about the effect AI's have on the thyroid and andrenals, just to give an example. "
The breast is a gland that "depends on the hormones produced by other glands" (exocrine and endocrine), which means that as glands the breasts do have a relationship to other glands. For example, when a baby suckles, the release of more oxytocin occurs, which is a relationship between the breasts and other glands.
When sunshine enters the eyes, the effect is conveyed to the pineal gland, which then influences the production of melatonin, which is thought to both influence sleep, which is thought to influence the incidence of cancer of the breasts. (Google nurses and night shifts and cancer.)
Treatment with drugs that produce chemopause as a method of treating breast cancer influences the estrogen levels in the body, which then results in changes in the hair, the skin, the vaginal secretions, and vaginal atrophy.
There appear to be connections between the thyroid gland and breast cancer as well. Are oncs as knowledgeable about the thyroid gland and its relationship to the breasts as endocrinologists, to be able to stay on top of the latest research about it and to combine it with the appearance of the patient and the patient's signs and symptoms, since there is no endocrinologist conducting any exam of the patient or deciding which tests to run on the patient when the patient presents for treatment?
From some of the discussions on these forums it is clear that oncs fail to think of the endocrine system effects that are created by the treatment they recommend. This is traumatic for patients who were never told when making the choice of treatment for breast cancer that they would be dealing with anything more than plain old garden variety menopause like other women have had and still enjoy a somewhat lower level of libido -- often quite different from the situation for older women who are given chemotherapy. And remember, 2/3 of those who have bc are over the age of 55.
Age plus chemopause contributes to weight gain and slowing of metabolism and loss of muscle tissue and increase in fatty tissue proportionately. Oncs don't prepare women for this either when women are making the choice of treatment. As you say, the breast is only affected by other glands, so there is no need to have the expertise of those whose training is specific to glands..... ???? Are you sure? Given that women receive very little help with the issue of weight gain and weight gain is thought to increase the risk for recurrence, perhaps having someone sitting on the "surgery" board to develop plans for addressing chemopausal weight gain from the get-go might be worthwhile -- unless the "project" is considered "over" when the patient completes surgery, radation and chemotherapy. I'd say that shows a considerable lack of foresight, given that treatment with chemotherapy moved into the adjvuant stage some time ago, putting a huge population of women who are at relatively low risk then at higher risk based on weight gain alone. They don't need more thorough metabolic comprehension and planning????
So, while it is possible to say that the breast is unrelated to the endocrine system, we can continue to treat the breast as being unrelated to other endocrine and exocrine effects just like so many oncs prefer to do. It is much more complicated and less pleasant for them to recognize the connections and discuss them honestly with patients at the time of recommending treatment.
As long as there is no one sitting as a member of the tumor board to keep the process honest and to take the whole person into consideration and not just the surgical, radiologic, and toxic chemical therapies in mind, there will be little focus on the need to provide balanced information for the patient to make intelligent choices.
What I am saying is that for decades the mistake has been to "leave it to the oncs" to obtain the expertise to analyze and interpret the effects of the endocrine system that do involve the breasts and breast cancer, and as a result, that very important avenue of knowledge has been largely left out of consideration, both in terms of more accurate application and fairer discussion with patients at the time of choosing treatments that have major effects on the endocrine processes of the body.
We need to put more focus on training endocrine practitioners who specialize in cancer treatment, so that they are capable of being an integral part of each patient's tumor board and can help to piece together what is going on with the patient's glandular system and provide direction and discussion about it. Otherwise it will continue to be a process of surgical expertise, radiation expertise, and toxic chemical expertise, leaving the patient to "deal with everything else" on their own after the surgeons, radiologists, and oncologists pat themselves on the back for "defeating the cancer".
A.A.
0 -
I had a hysterectomy and ovaries out two years ago. went on hormone replacement estrogen patch, the highest dose avaiilable was the best.and progesterone in cream and pill form. i was seeing a hormone doc who was recommending less estrogen and much more progesterone. well progesterone made me incredibly irritable, so i finally just quit. so then i was diong just estrogen, which some say is a mistake, that that is when you get cancer, from unopposed estrogen.
before my hysterectomy, i had advanced stage infiltrating endometriosis. which is usually accompanied by too much estrogen and unbalanced hormones. then it is treated either with continouous birth control pills, which don't really help advanced endo, and with lupron, which shuts off all your hormones completely. I know this treatment helps endometriosis pain a lot but I was scared off it by scary stories on forums. so i chickened out on the lupron, begged for the hyst, and then started the estrogen.
in hindsight had i done the lupron i mightn't have the cancer today.
0 -
Absolutely agree with your last paragraph, AA.
I have learned a few things in my research on bioidentical progesterone and the estrogen issues.
The estrogen levels are not only influenced by our natural state. We are exposed to false estrogens all our lives, some more than others. From pesticides to shampoo to chlorine in the pool to breathing wood smoke to eating some foods, we get an influx of false estrogen. The body does not differentiate very well, it uses this against us. The natural progesterone holds the estrogen and false estrogen in check, balancing us.
HUGE ISSUE - Dr. Lee's research did not include the fact that if a woman or man rubs the progesterone cream on their skin it will build up in the system. I for one, rubbed it on my throat, arms, breasts, especially the right side, chest, inner thigh. But mostly the breast, probably 50% of the time. And that is right where I got the mass.
I don't know anything really, did it cause the cancer? Did it fuel what was there? Was my estrogen whopping out of control? I wish I knew.
This I do know. My cancer was impacted by environmental toxins. My daugher who is 27 got a mass the same time I did. Hers went away in a few weeks. Mine was cancer. We were exposed to the outside wood boiler
http://burningissues.org/health-meet-body-exposure.html health info
estrogen info here http://www.epa.gov/air/toxicair/takingtoxics/p1.html#3 (see Health Effects)
http://woodburnersmoke.net/ images
next door to our home, she visited often, we had barn sales, were swimming in the pool here, smoke coming over the barn, making me crazy with anger. She was not angry, enjoyed the smoke smell. But she always got migraines. We were also eager too use the pool but it had been treated with a high dose of chlorine since former owners of this property had not closed the pool right. I went swimming anyway, when level was too high, thinking it was not the best idea but WTHeck. Afte rI found the mass mid-July, I researched chlorine and we quickly switched the pool to pure H2O2, a healing environment instead. But the smoke kept me out of the pool most of the time.
Smolderinng smoke from OWB, neighbor burning garbage and ucky stuff, the chllorine, all hit me hard, tipped my apple cart, and now I am concerned about mx to lungs especially, the films showed changes.
During this time, I had been using the natural progesterone cream in the spring but stopped sometime in there, wish I could recall. When I found the mass, I stopped completely.
Now I know some medical doctors are saying to apply the natural progesterone cream either vaginally or rectally, and this will not build up, the hormone will be released just like the ovaries would do, the body will use what it needs.
That's all I know. To date, I have two tubes to use and they are unopened. But when Hubby and I test for my protocol (energy testing, kinesiology) the cream is positive to use, vaginally, the size of a pea five days a week, all month long. Still, I am having the hormone tests done by practitioner, researching more, not decided what to do. I have two more pages to read on this thread alone, and will be back to hear more experiences.
0 -
jdwench: I very much doubt that your bc was caused by your hysterectomy and HRT, which began just two years ago. It takes years for a bc to grow to become a size that it can be seen on a mammo screening. Perhaps the estrogen patch caused it to grow to a detectable size and that is when it was found. I was on birth control for twenty years, hysterectomy with ovaries removed at 50, then HRT for another twenty, and finally last year, bc.
0 -
A.A., do you have issues processing information or something? I say that we don't need other specialists on a SURGERY discussion board but we definitely need at least an endocrinologist on the board for chemo and hormonal treatment and then you jump up three feet to berate me that we need an endocrinologist on the board for chemo and hormonal treatment? I mean, I say "it's white" and you jump up to contradict me and argue "NO! IT'S WHITE!"???
All the long paragraphs ranting on melatonin and oxytocin are useless. The breast gland DEPENDS on hormones produced by other glands in order to influence in any way these other glands or the production of anything. The oxytocin released when breastfeeding would not be there without the breast producing milk following certain processes induced by hormones produced by other glands. Period. The breast, as a gland, does not start any glandular processes by itself. In layman terms, if you don't turn on the fire (other glands), the water (breast gland) won't start boiling.
Trust me, I do not need lessons and patronizing. I am a professional.
The board does not need any kind of specialist (besides the oncologist) to decide on the surgery. The surgeon does not need to be aware of anything else if he is an oncology-specialized surgeon. He needs to know only one thing: how to perform the surgery.
When it comes to the TREATMENT as a whole, the board needs specialists that aren't currently on them: not just an endocrinologist, but an immune system specialist, a rheumatologist, a neurologist, an ostheologist (not to be confused with an ostheopath), a psychologist/psychiatrist, etc. You probably didn't even taken into consideration ALL that is affected by this treatment in your rant and rave about"glands" and "endocrinology". I do agree wholeheartedly that cancer treatmnt needs a holistic approach, and I have been saying it all along. Not just the "breast is a gland" part. The picture is way larger than what you envision.
0
