I look for other flat chested women. A rant.
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I like the "Flat IS Fabulous Foundation" and we could put out our own pamphlets to be handed to MX patients as another option besides more surgery or falsies.
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Women in Black is already a very well-established, completely amazing FR YU anti-war feminist organization: http://www.womeninblack.org
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Didn't know about women in black. So Flat and Fabulous. Sine we don't have any money, maybe leave off foundation.
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Not sure what to make of this thread. It now seems that some posts are saying that choosing to wear breast forms is a bad thing??? Many of us who frequent this forum have chosen NOT to have reconstruction yet prefer to wear breast forms. For me, they are actually more comfortable than going totally flat (I like the feedback effect). Also, I prefer not to draw attention to myself by being noticably flat. I support and admire those who do choose to go flat, but I'm abit taken aback by the militant, even adversarial, tone here. For the first time ever on this forum, I'm feeling unwelcome.
I'm personally fine with those who opt to have reconstruction even though I didn't feel it was the right choice for me. At the time of my surgery, I was concerned that there was so little information available about non-reconstruction as a positive alternative to reconstruction. That's why I started BreastFree.org. I deliberately didn't start a separate discussion forum on BreastFree.org because I felt that this forum already filled that need. I've always valued the sense of community here at breastcancer.org. In fact, it was I who suggested the forum name-change to the current name, because I felt the prior name didn't accurately reflect its targeted group (I can't even remember exactly what it was called before, something about alternatives to reconstruction and prosthesis options). The moderators agreed and, since the name change, I've been happy to see a lot of new women here and hopeful that this signifies a growing awareness that not having reconstruction is a good choice for many of us.
While I think it's great to have a separate thread like this for those who wish to go flat, I hope the forum doesn't become a divisive place where those who go flat look down on those of us who wear breast forms.
Barbara
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I hope that I have not said anything divisive here on this thread. I find going flat empowering. I find it challenges the norm. I am exposed and, yes, radical. But I am grateful that I have my prosthetic and that it allows me to be normal when I choose. Un-radical.
It seems to me that the tone on this thread has been trying to sort out that line. To embolden us to be radical. To accept that we don't necessarily always want to be. That we wish it could just be easy for us to go out there and be flat and normal.
Whatever may resemble judgment of using prosthetic that has been written here could just as easily be taken as the struggle with the demand that society puts on us to wear the prosthetic and our own struggles with self-judgment for wishing we could just "pass."
I have not personally taken any of it as judgement of my choice to wear a prosthetic when I do.
Erica, I share your hope that this forum stays open to all who wish to find a home here.
Claire
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Erica, people have been incredibly loving towards all choices, including my struggle with recon or not.
I don't think anyone's being divisive, but I think there is an urgent need for women going flat publicly to have a safe space to call their own. One thread as a safe space seems like a pretty small slice of the pie to me, and I celebrate it.
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Pam, as you know, I've already had my double mastectomy, and I'm not interested in reconstruction. I have my special bra and forms and I wear those to work. I am also now bald from chemo. People definitely notice my baldness because I wear a scarf that so makes it obvious. But before, sometimes I would go out to dinner or something (like when I mentioned fireworks) without wearing the bra and forms, and honestly, I don't think anyone noticed. And if they did, so what?
This was my decision, and at a stage IIIC, I'm fighting for my life and I'm not going to have elective surgery (twice!) just to have boobs that won't look like mine did anyway, nor will they have much feeling in them. Whichever way you decide, reconstruction or not, just let it be YOUR decision! I have people in my life (relatives!) pressing me to reconstruct, but I'm not doing it. They will just have to get over it...lol. :-)
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Barbara,
I think everyone's agreed here that we do not want an atmosphere where anyone looks down on anyone else's choice. Wearing forms is as valid as going flat, which is as valid as getting recon. I think that the voicing here has been frustration about the fact that so many have felt unsupported in the decision to simply go flat. If I have sounded less than welcoming to those to wear forms, then I apologize and will try to be more careful in the future.
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Erica, I've been on vacation and I must admit when I first started catching up with this forum my reaction was similar to yours. But as I have read more carefully I think I was reading in more than is there. I think that rather than anyone saying that wearing breast forms is bad what is circulating here is a desire for choosing to not wear breast forms to be seen as just as valid a choice. To me it's kind of like those of us who haven't had reconstruction wanting our choice to not be denegrated, but to be accepted as a valid choice. I just see this as an offshoot of that.
Now that I have breast forms that don't cause me pain I see them as tools. I can always find an outfit to throw on that doesn't require the forms and no one's the wiser. But now that I have a choice sometimes it's easier to put the forms on and just be able to put on any top without having to grab a scarf or vest or something. For instance while traveling on vacation I wore the forms - in my nice air conditioned car and they really helped with the tightness I get from prolonged periods of inactivity. During vacation I wore peasant tops that came with little cotton cami tanks without forms or my swimsuit with a tiny bit of shower scrubby rolled in the cup. I was very active, the tops were very concealing and I didn't feel the need to wear the forms.
To me, this has never been a case of me not caring how people react to my flatness. Truly no one has ever noticed and said anything to me and I have never sensed anyone seeming to notice, unless I have wanted them to. Friends and family don't even know if I'm wearing or not unless I tell them.
So I'm not militant on this at all, but I have to admit that I am enjoying hearing from others like me and feeling that women are feeling empowered by the conversation here.
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I have been thinking about this, and I suppose by the name given to this discussion "I look for other flat chested women" it should be place to deal with all the emotions and feelings of choosing to go flat.
But of course women (like myself) belong here too because I choose to go flat at home, and wear forms when I go out, so we "walk in both worlds".
I am sorry if anyone feels uncomfortable, that I am sure was never the intention. I personally have mixed views on the whole thing, which is why i choose to be flat as well as wear forms.
And I will add that reading through all of these posts has left me feeling better about myself. Stronger, more empowered and in control. I felt like a victim after my mastectomy, and one who had to be subjected to the terrible humiliating fitter situation. No woman having had any kind of surgery should have to put up with standing alone in a dressing room, naked from the waist up, mirrors all over, waiting for some pretty little lady with real breasts to select my new forms. That totally ruined my thinking.
And now i have my mojo back, even if that means putting on breasts every day. These strong ladies have helped me get my heart and emotions in a better place.
Bottom line here ladies, is we are all flat...even if we choose to cover up, wear a scarf, whatever, we all face that mirror at night, or the guy, or the family....so we belong together and I hope you all feel like you belong. I need all of you, I sure do.
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crystalphm...I loved your post.
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Crystal, ditto what CLC said, I loved your post.
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I appreciate all the responses. I do absolutely feel that this thread is important and meaningful. Perhaps my unease reflects my own struggle--I don't feel that I should have to "hide" my flatness behind forms, yet I just can't get comfortable going out unless I wear them. I also don't like the way I look in the mirror without them. Oddly, I feel fine seeing my naked chest, but in clothes I feel that I look strange.
My mother-in-law, who lost one breast at 31 and the other at 46, chose later in her life to go flat, so I had thought a lot about this subject even before I was diagnosed with breast cancer. (Here's a blog I wrote about her, including a picture of her going flat: http://breastfree.blogspot.com/2009/03/before-my-bilateral-mastectomy-i-had.html.)
Like crystalphm, I often go flat at home, so I guess I, too, "walk in both worlds." Who knows, maybe this thread will radicalize me.
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Erica, I can't get your link to work...and I would like to...help!
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Sorry, I can't seem to get it to work. If you go to http://breastfree.blogspot.com, it's the very first entry I posted, in March 2009.
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http://breastfree.blogspot.com/search?q=mother-in-law
This is it...I hope.
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Is that the right page, Erica? It is a wonderful tribute to a clearly wonderful role model.
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Yes, that's it! Sorry I couldn't get the link to function properly. Glad you found it and glad you liked it. She was a great role model.
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Erica, I found the story about your mil heartwarming. Thank you. Pam
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Erica, loved your blog!
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Erica, I have seen this before and was so moved by your mother-in -laws story, I remember crying at the end when I realized she did not die from cancer. And I felt for the first time I was going to be ok. I was flat. And Ok.
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A lovely tribute.
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Oh gosh. I just had a great post and it went poof.
Erica. You may be reacting to my angels and whore comment, I would like to clarify. I do not mean to offend you or any other woman who chooses to wear breast forms or to get reconstructed, I apologize if this is the case.
My thought was that, as women, we are judged for whatever we do, and so if I am going to be judged for not wearing forms, for going flat, for being independant and true to myself -ourselves-, then I'll go for it. I am stared at, often in simple curiosity, sometimes quite rudely. I have been taunted that I look like a man. And I by no means, look like a man. I choose not to reconstruct, but it was never presented to me as a viable option, quite the opposite, really. I keep asking the nurses at the hospital if they see many women going flat, not yet. Oh wait, one woman, 'but she is quite old', as if this option were for those who have given up and don't have a foot in the game. Come on!
So how do we make it feel OK to be flat? We become more fabulous, confident and available to life as we know it. We create spaces like this one, where we can each say it like we experience it. This isn't a one size fits all conversation. It takes all sorts. Reconstructed women, half flat women, women who like to wear forms, we are all in this together, unfortunately. Fortunately too. In many ways cancer, it's treatment and decisions is quite the blessing.
Would I like to see half/flat women depicted in photographs on breast cancer literature? Yes. Would I like to be stared at less? Yes. Do I think this is a viable option? Hell yeah. If going on the subway is a way to do some Flat Sensitivity Training? OK.
All kidding aside, I don't mean to belittle, hurt or degrade anyone for any choice they make pertaining to their breast cancer treatment. It is such a personal process.
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Crystal, well put and I have similar feelings about it.
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Speaking of photos, check this out: http://helenair.com/lifestyles/natural-women-helena-photographer-captures-beauty-of-breast-cancer-survivors/article_391f8040-c8c7-11e1-a6da-0019bb2963f4.html
It is not my style, but I think it is cool that she is doing this.0 -
Erica your blog has been very valuable to me since I started treatment - I am sorry if you feel offended.
But I think this thread is immensely important to redress the balance and assist those who want acceptance as flatties.
Partial or total flatness is the part of breast cancer which is sneered at and looked down on. Nobody is playing some kind of moral high card - people just want to be left alone to live their lives as they choose without abuse and criticism. They want women to know that as well as reconstruction and prostheses there is a 3rd option following mastectomy - flatness. At the moment that 3rd option is barely mentioned by medical professionals. If just one person (of the thousands of hits this thread has had) walks away viewing their options from a different angle then all of this discussion is worth it.
It would be great to hear from some women who have had successful reconstruction being able to depersonalise their circumstances and throw their support behind the women who choose not to follow the same path as them.
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greenfrog, I would say I felt concerned rather than offended as I read some of the posts on this thread and your post actually helped me articulate to myself what my concern is. I wouldn't describe the options currently offered to women as "reconstruction" or "prostheses" as you did; instead, I've found that it's often simply assumed that a woman will have reconstruction. No other option is discussed. I've heard this from countless women in messages sent to me at BreastFree.org.
I'm not sure about the UK, but in the US many doctors not only encourage their patients to pursue reconstruction, they tell them that they won't feel whole, happy, or feminine without it. (I know some women haven't had that experience, but it is increasingly common.) Because of this situation, I've been working hard for the past few years to create a climate where women are offered TWO options, either reconstruction or non-reconstruction. One reason I started BreastFree.org was to create a website to which doctors could refer women at the same time as they refer women to a plastic surgeon. So, my concern as I read this thread was that by further subdividing this group and thinking about going flat as a THIRD option, this would diffuse the message that non-reconstruction is a viable choice whether or not a women subsequently decides to wear breast forms or to go flat.
On BreastFree.org, I discuss breast forms that I and other women have found the most comfortable and attractive but I also devote space to women who choose to go flat. I call that section "Going Form-Free." (I originally called it "Going Flat," but several women didn't like that term and asked me to change it, as it reminded them of being flat-chested pre-teens. I would consider changing the name back if women here think it better states how they wish to be described.) One of the things I love about having a flat chest is that I can evolve over time. I can wear small breast forms or large ones or go flat entirely. That makes me feel empowered. The message I want to share with women is that they can feel whole and happy without breasts, whether or not they choose to wear breast forms or go flat.
Okay, I'll get off my bandwagon...
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MT1,
Thanks for your compassionate response to my post. I hope we can help each other on this journey. I see you as someone who, like me, has tried to make lemonade out of lemons. I'm glad you agree with me that we each have to find our own personal way to do this. But I so appreciate this forum for showing me the paths that you and other women are choosing. I hope it gives me the strength to continue to evolve and live proudly as a breast-free woman.
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Great discussion. Just a couple of comments on the whole reconstruction industry. My surgeon pretty much insisted I see a PS before my surgery -- "you are such a pretty lady, really you should consider it" (really -- 67 years old and married for 44 years) So I did. At the time I was between insurance carriers and so had to pay. Now for context, I had a "neck lift" a few years ago -- no doubt contributing to the "pretty lady" comment. The PS I saw for that cosmetic surgery charged me zero for a consult and then gave me a flat fee 10K for the surgery. He is among the top PS in my area. For the breast recon consult a different PS affliated with the "breast center" I used charged me $600 for about the same amount of time I had paid nothing for for the "neck lift" consult. Difference? Insurance. Thanks to the 1998 law, insurance companies must offer reconstruction. Therefore since the patient doesn't pay directly the fees escalate. I can't even start to guess how much reconstruction would cost given this scenario. But I can certainly understand why PS love it. For cosmetic surgery patients can shop around, compare prices and decide on the best value based on competence of the PS. Since insurance picks up the tab for breast reconstruction for most of us, there is no incentive to price shop -- hence zero vs. $600 for a consult.
Anyway regarding the flat look. I have decided to gradually reduce my apparent breast size. It is pretty simple. I wear a regular bra stuffed with cotton balls. I started with my old cup size, and am moving to smaller. I really like the look. Pretty flat but not concave. I am not sure if I will eventually dispense with everything. But I know I have zero regrets about my decision and feel quite "free" without breasts in the way.
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Erica - in the UK both reconstruction and prostheses are free with our National Health Service. Most reconstruction is "immediate" - i.e. part of the cancer removing surgery and this is recommended by NICE who advise the Government on what the NHS should provide. (So you already see the established bias towards reconstruction right there). There is also the option for delayed reconstruction and all mastectomy patients can be referred to a plastic surgeon at any time - regardless of how many years it has been since their mx.
I suppose what I am trying to say is that in the UK it is both easy and free to have reconstruction or acquire free prostheses. There are no financial/insurance issues to influence women's choices. The assumption is made that mastectomy patients will opt for one or the other.
But to my mind there is a third option and that is to live totally breast free without attempting to create a false breast either through forms or reconstruction. Nobody ever mentioned that option to me - and it has taken me 4 years and a huge amount of discomfort and stress and tears and money to realise that I could possibly live a life without pretending to still have bosoms.
I was regularly invited to attend meetings by a pro-reconstruction charity with women who showed how fabulous they thought their recons were - but nobody ever invited me to meet women who live happily breast free lives. I really wish they had. That's why your blog was so valuable to me. And why this thread is too.
I think people just want to turn up the volume on an option which rarely gets positive attention. And as has been said on this thread already, why do we never see fundraising or awareness by BC charities featuring flat or half flat women?
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