I look for other flat chested women. A rant.
Comments
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lilylady,
That may be the worst story I've ever heard!!!
BTW, agree with you on the stomach.
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Lily, Wow, how crazy!!! I had the same thing, but perhaps because I live in a small town, they mailed my my madonna bra and super huge fiberfill form. It looked like a potato and I can still remember siting on the sofa, excited I had gotten a present, and then shocked at what I saw, wondering "Is THIS my new life?"
Well, I am so glad, 8 months later, to know all of you wonderful caring women are my new life!
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Lily lady,
I am really sorry that happened to you.
I also find the story funny-like you had written it for the movies, to think this is happening today, for real, my goodness. I would have been the intimidated one that allowed it to happen and then fumed afterward. I love your spunk and talk back! Yeah for you. But truely, that is a horrid occurance.
Coraleliz, bikini tops stay in place? I imagine they might ride up. I love the silver and blue one and I have never bought a bikini, I would like to. And how or what in your above scenario might have affected LE?
Thanks to this board and talk, I have been feeling much more confident. Today I went out in my tweetie bird tank top and some shorts. The puzzled looks affect me less. Yeah!
Melly0 -
Lily lady,
I am really sorry that happened to you.
I really found it quite funny too, I would have been too overwhelmed to object and I love your spunk and talk back! Yeah for you.
Coraleliz, bikini tops stay in place? I imagine they might ride up. I love the silver and blue one and I have never bought a bikini, I would like to. And how or what in your above scenario might have affected LE?
Thanks to this board and talk, I have been feeling much more confident. Today I went out in my tweetie bird tank top and some shorts. The puzzled looks affect me less. Yeah!
Melly0 -
Before IBC... I was a large chested woman. Double D knockers that hurt my back, got in the way, got smashed at work, interrupted my hugs, made ballroom dancing uncomfortable. Feb29th I had a double MX. I stand taller. I hug better. I JOG!!! (Don't try this with DD boobs... It just causes black eyes) I can sit out in the heat and not have to hold my boobs up to air the underside out. No heat rash! I look much better in my clothes (although I have to say I do sometimes look a lot like a little boy as my hair continues to grow back in.
I don't miss them.
I got some fake ones, just in case I might want them, and I have yet to wear them. I got smaller ones though... they are almost a C. But after talking to a number of women who had reconstruction... I knew I didn't want that.
I too look for my flat chested sisters. But then, I also look for my sisters in the do-rags, the hats, the proud baldness and the survivor ribbons. And when I see you... I am giving you the best hug ever!
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Dmlem1, I hear ya! Proud to be flat!
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Lilylady, I think that bordered on assualt & battery - and may have actually crossed the line!
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Lilylady, As a social worker I think a letter to the State Board filing a complaint is in order. I am sure many women have been overwhelmend and just wanted out of the hospital, so put up with her. Sh eshould not be allowed to maintain her position.
And yes on one's stomach looking larger! UGH
I am going flat almost everywhere except work. Not ready for that yet, not sure I will be. I am just finishing up rads, so the skin irritation with a bra in this heat - just not comfortable. I only wore my wigh less than 5 tiems or so. I wore a baseball hat when out, now jsut the buzz cut look. I too am caring less about any looks.
Gentle evening
Nel
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Melly-sitting in a jacuzzi might trigger lymphedema. As for the bikini top staying down, it actually does. I wasn't sure it would. It's kinda tricky figuring out what size, but I still wear my pre-mastectomy size in competitive swimwear. Which is a 32 or 34. My ribcage is a whopping 28inches.
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Lilylady, that is too horrible, but also has some distinct comedic potential. You really wonder how some people end up in the "helping professions."
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wow Lily I can't believe people can be so insensitive. Holy Cow...that lady should be fired! I hope you were able share her unprofessionalism with the appropriate staff at your hospital. Unbelieveable!!!!!!!! and on the stomach issue: I can't tell you how many people have congratulated me on being pregnant after my double mastectomy. Dozens over the past 4 years and I'm 52!!!!!!!! It's crazy! Do others have this same problem?? I've tried and tried to get rid of this tummy over the years and nothing is working!!!! The last person who made that comment was a lady in my breast cancer survivor exercise group!!! By the way~ I'm the only flatty there!!!!!
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Lily I think something should be done to stop that from happening to any more BC patients.Especially while they are still in the hospital and so soon after surgery.Unbelievable.
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I have a silly fun idea that I hope you guys might join me in. Have you heard of Flat Stanley?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Stanley
Perhaps we can each blow up a photo of ourselves in our flat glory, 8x10 or so, mount it on card board, and cut it to shape. Then mail them to one another and photograph the cut outs in our various citys and towns, going grocery shopping, posing in front of local monuments, goofball stuff. We could keep a group blog and upload the photos. I think this could be a silly and fun way to raise awareness of Going Flat as a breast cancer survivor, get to know ane another and have fun. We would, of course, need to think up a savvy name.
Have I drunk the kool-aid, or does this seem like a good idea?
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Lilylady...I am sorry you had such a horrible experience.
I can say that no one pushed prosthetics on me. Where I am, such a huge proportion of women get reconstruction that the nurses and doctors seemed to have dropped prosthetics out of their routine. No one suggested it. No one helped me find decent fitters. The people at the insurance company didn't seem to understand what a prosthetic was and I had to actually describe one for her to understand me (as a "fake breast to go where the one that was cut off"). I had to track down a scrip from the doctor. When I called the office, there was confusion about whether I could get the scrip when I was asking for it (at six weeks post mx). I think the fitter I talked to had a clearer handle on the timeline for getting a prosthetic than the nurse at my bs.
For me, it felt like I was invisible. I had become a person outside of the social norm. Has anyone ever seen the movie Brazil? It is a very strange comedy by one of the Monty Python guys, Terry Gilliam. It's protaganist ends up existing outside the rigid society, as an exile/outlaw. It's the kind of society where everyone is a number. The protaganist's mother (played by Katherine Helmond) keeps getting plastic surgery. I think I am going to watch it again, because this is now the third time this particular thread has made me think of it. I haven't seen it in 20 years, I think. At any rate, my search for a prosthetic made me feel like the protaganist in that movie. I no longer could get a number/fit in and play along (which I don't think I really ever wanted), because I had a problem that I never caused or asked for. It was a desperately alone feeling.
Not only did I no longer fit the proper mold, I didn't even want to... I mean, society's norms seem to dictate that I should at least be miserable about my inability to fit in.
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I don't remember if I shared this or not, but I am using triathalon suits - love the way they have a more modest coverage of the upper legs, some have zip fronts that make it especially easy to put on and off (I have a couple that are pull-overs, and they are a bit trickier). I always had trouble finding swimwear to fit as I am also very small (never really thought of myself as small except when trying to find clothes to fit! LOL) and a water aerobics instructor (who is TINY, probably all of 85 pounds, pure muscle, about 5 feet tall) suggested I try the triathalon suits. So I invested in 4 of them last year, BEFORE BC recurrence & BMX. Well, they are very expensive and I am not about to let all that shopping go to waste (I really hate shopping for clothes!), as well as all the $$$ down the drain, so I am wearing them, am becoming more comfortable in being flat in them (well, a bit concave, actually) at home, and may be brave enough to wear them on the beach by next year.
I also tried on my last-year's Land's End suits, and found they aren't too bad - the "slightly padded cups" which I never filled out completely anyway are not easily accidentally dented in to give a bumpy look, and they are very comfortable as well.
cwestbro, I think I was the only flatty (is this a cousin to fatty? flatulent? farty?.....sorry, couldn't resist) in the cancer support group I was/am in. I started out wearing the prostheses because I was wearing them to work, and went to group right after work. But when the semester ended, I gave it up, went to group however I was dressed (t-shirt) and wore a cardigan or scarf/shawl because it was so cold with air conditioning. No one said a thing, but I think I may bring it up when we resume meeting next month. I think most of them have had reconstruction, but am not sure. I do know one of them has had problems with reconstruction issues.
There is another thread here for women who have had problems with fitters that some of you may find interesting, especially if you are sometimes using prostheses. I can't remember the thread right now, but will find it if anyone wants. I don't think it has been active for a while, and also the one sharing ideas on clothing has not been active, but there were certainly several women who were sharing fashion ideas there for going without prostheses or reconstruction.
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I have a ridge line that keeps the bikini tops in place-of course that is only in the privacy of my own back yard-my bikini days have long passed...and I don't really have a big stomach (thanks to 18 months on chemo) but since I am concave on top it is the thing that protrudes the most. My tumor was mostly in the chest wall so i lost some muscle mass on the cancer side.
As far as I know the woman still has her job-and it was like a total comic moment. She was so determined to run me down. Because of the Stage 4 I was in 8 different hospitals last year and that one was absoltuely the worst. They tried to starve me-only offered sugar free pudding and stale graham crackers. No water-I drank out of the sink. They never came in and explained about the drains or emptied them so they clotted and backed up into the incisions. Asked for assistance to go pee for the first time and the lady was telling me over the intercom how to gather up the drains, pain ball and oversize gown instead of coming in. Woke up to a nurse taking my BP in my arm-and all this was on an oncology floor. I wrote many letters and talked to many people and what they told me is this happens all the time and no chnages have ever been made-I will never go there again or let anyone in my family.
I love the Flat Stanley idea. Hilarious
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OOOOO- I missed the Flat Stanley idea! But sounds interesting!
Lilylady, have you talked with the patient advocate at that hospital? I would suggest the next step is talking to their Risk Assessment folks.... let them know you may be talking to a lawyer. The patient advocate folks try to keep things from escalating into something that Risk Management needs to deal with, specifically lawsuits. I had the Patient Advocates calling me very frequently a couple of years ago because of some MAJOR errors on my medical record after a head CT for what turned out to be an "optic migraine" - inaccurate x-ray readings, WRONG report (someone else's) filed on my recored, unable to be corrected other than "addendums" because of the electronic record system they have, caused me to have to make additional trips and tests because of the errors - finally figured it all out because I READ my reports, talked with the chief radiology resident on duty the day I was supposed to have additional tests, and he agreed with me that the errors were there, and no additional testing was needed. Let me tell you, I had the chief of radiology, a couple of radiologists who were involved, and the patient advocate calling, trying to get it all sorted out. I was furious!!!! I was not completely satisfied with the way things got "fixed," but the next thing that happened was the BC diagnosis. I put up such a stink about not trusting anyone in the radiology department that I got the best of the best to do my biopsies and all future readings. He met with me after each procedure or imaging, showed me exactly what was what, and confirmed with me before it ever got on my chart.
"Trust no one" has been my motto. Raise a stink. The squeaky wheel gets the grease, and being quiet, submissive, and "a good patient" does not help ANYONE!!!
Yes, there are comic moments, and we do need to laugh at ourselves to help keep ourselves sane, but there are also times when change needs to happen. Good luck to you, my friend.
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I chose to have bilateral mastectomy and i have a flat chest like you. I have zero regret about it and i don't feel bad about it but my husband has suggeted me not to post pond construction surgery too much. I am not sure i will ever do it. I don't know that is so important for me after going through this hell. Glad to hear someone is there just like me. Keep it up. All the best. 0
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Welcome lovujja. May I ask where you are from?
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WOW....poster and poem are amazing! I love it! Need to get one for myself!
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Those well meaning friends? They sometimes leave niggly crumbs in the mind. I have one friend and I love her. I know what place she holds for me and I don't want to slap her upside the head but I do need to say something because it seems she can't help herself and her filters are not very good.
A few visits ago, she repeatedly suggested, Why not just get a padded bra? My responce, I am enjoying not wearing a bra, I don't want to invest in breast forms, I am OK with this.
The next time I saw her I was dressed gender nuetral and no comments were made.
This time I was wearing a dress and looked feminine. She gushed. Oh you look so feminine, see you can do this, you look great, is that a new haircut? Oh, I wouldn't get it cut shorter... (and the next sentence would have been, you'll look to masculine had our friend Pat not walked up).
Now my gender presentation is not a problem for me and my gender identity has not changed because I am flat. Sometimes I am going to dress in a masculine way, sometimes feminine. I can now embody every approach according to whim, and I am enjoying it. I am not going to be having a sex change anytime soon either
. In fact, I feel even more feminine than I have had with breasts. I do not feel compormised by my choices and I don't want to deal with this every time I see my friend. It is her who has a problem with gender, not me. Do you have any simple suggestions about how to deal with this?
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MT - It's her.
My 19 year old , however, does have gender issues - and has gone back and forth on whether she identifies as male and female, and I wish people would just leave her alone, instead of telling her when she's in female mode, how much prettier she is, or comments negatively on her appearance when she's in more male mode. It hurts. I wish people would just mind their own business.
My solution:because I'm annoying and I'm sixty, I'd just tell her that her comments are not welcome, and ask whether your appearance makes her feel insecure about her femininity.
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MT,
You have no control over what other people say but you have complete control over how you react to it, so that is where I would focus. Sounds to me as if she actually may have gotten the message. She hasn't brought up the padded bra again, she said nothing when you dressed gender neutral, and she complemented you when you dressed feminine.
If it were me, I would have responded as your did re: the bra----mission accomplished.
Happy she didn't say anything negative about dressing gender neutral-----mission accomplished.
Thanked her for the complements---mission accomplished.
I really don't think this has anything to do with cancer or being flat chested per se. Every one responds differently towards their own preferences, whether that is their idea of femininity or what type of furniture looks best. Out of common courtesy, most people will complement what appeals to them and be silent about what does not. It really doesn't need to have any more significance than that, if you choose not to let it have more significance.
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Mel, not for nothing, and I really hope this does not offend anyone, but I have had similar experiences long before breast cancer, in the US. Not so much in Denmark, nor in Greece.
I am really not sure what the deal is, but in general it seems as if Americans are more stuck on stereotypical gender presentations.
In my youth, I had very long hair, pretty nice legs and wide hips. I really don't think I looked masculine at all. All the same, I would constantly have other women tell me that I needed a new hairdo, some make-up, frillier clothes, more colors etc.
I am not trying to claim that it has never happened to me in Europe, it has. It just seems to me that Americans tend to be more rigid about this.0 -
I remember Flat Stanley. Doesn't he rescue something by sliding between the bars of a grate in the street?
The people who tried to make me different from who I am were really only in my family. They've either all died or given up.
I have a 5 year old daughter, and wow am I aware of gender stereotypes in this country. She is already so concerned about being pretty, won't wear shorts or pants unless I force her (for reasons of warmth or something like that). If it's not pink or purple, it has to have flowers or hearts on it. Believe me, she's not getting this at home. Sure, maybe some of it's just her, but quite a lot of it is wanting to fit in at school.
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Outfield, at that age it is also the age. That is the age when kids discover gender norms and they will typically go a little jiggy with it. That is actually a good thing. It shows that she is social and picks up on norms. She can start having a dialogue with the whole business later. Right now it is more important that she just absorb the basic concept.
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As soon as I say this, I wonder about actually getting it done. Still, if we would send a "Flat Stanley" of those of us that cannot come to Flat Fest, you all could include us in the group photos. Might be fun.
Barbara
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I go back and forth about saying anything. I agree with Nancyjac, people respond to what they like, and they like their preferences.
It's just, I don't want to hear these comments every time I see this friend. I feel like the assumption is, 'something about you isn't right'. And while I can handle this from the odd man on the street, I don't like experiencing it with friends.
Ideas about gender are oppressive, I feel like they are vaguely categorical and that is a strange dichotomy.
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Oh, Barabara! What a great idea!!! I would be willing to send a photo of myself if I can't come. I was thinking that I would not be going back to work this fall (I teach at a major university) because I have had such severe fatigue that not even the summer break had been helping, but saw my PCP/palliative care specialist this week, changed my meds, and BOY do I HAVE my mojo back!!! This is the 4th day in a row that I have been able to get out of bed before 10 am (7 today!), have actually done house chores (had not been able to do them for nearly 2 years), and am actually thinking I might even ENJOY getting back to my students rather than dreading it, in which case a trip to NYC is out. DH is still a little hesitant, counsels me to "wait & see" how I do in the next few weeks, see if I can tolerate the meds.
Outfield, I also think it is your daughter's age, and indeed, I think she is more "socially aware" than some of us. I did not really care what others wore, never had any desire to "be stylish" when clothes were uncomfortable or flashy. I also didn't have all that many friends, but believe that the ones I had were some of the best ones I ever had and still have. My younger sister was gregarious, loved stylish clothes (hated the hand-me-downs from me!), had a great social life. She is now a professional portrait photographer, and her social skills are critical to her success. My ability to focus on OTHER things has been critical to my success - I am able to read, study, research much better than she can. We are both happy and relatively well adjusted. I think. Who knows for sure????0 -
Linda, congrats on the mojo. That is such good news.
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