I look for other flat chested women. A rant.
Comments
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Riverhorse, your story helped clarify something in my mind, thanks. Your surgeon's comment about you being such a pretty lady was telling to say the least. Thing is, I was a pretty lady before and I am still a pretty lady after the mastectomy, thankyouverymuch.
I think what a lot of us are circling around in this thread is that we don't see the surgery as either a disfigurement or some sort of self-image disaster. It is different to be sure, challenging, sometimes difficult, but we are still ourselves and feminine and able to live and enjoy and do without the boobs.0 -
Momine
Exactly -- the inference was that without breasts I would no longer be a "pretty lady" I am fine, and still as pretty or not pretty as before.
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My doc said, I wouldn't feel like a woman. Hah!
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Riverhorse, I bet you are very pretty.
Alexandria, ack! I hope you kneed him in the balls.0 -
Her - that's the sad thing. My doc was a woman!
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Such bizarre stuff. How would anyone know whether you feel like a woman or not if they'd not been through the experience? So very weird when people assume what it will be like for us. I get this a lot from friends in Europe--that I'm deficient, or not a real woman because I don't have kids.
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Alexandria, ack once again. Although I guess you could have kicked her in the tits then
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If I could kick that high, but alas, my kung fu days are over.
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I have been following this thread from the beginning and have found many comments to relate to.Thank you to those who have shared.
I have always looked at my breasts very pragmatically. They were almost too large when I was younger, then I nursed two children and transformed myself into a competitive athlete. After many years strapping them down, I was much more comfortable with my low bodyfat A cup.
A child of the 70's, I have never worn make-up or fussed with my hair or clothes. I was not anti-girly stuff, just someone who would rather spend time on other things. My hair was very (1") short before BC and remains so. I have always been androgynous and have no problem with that. I am and have always been a low maintenance, wash and wear gal.......took pride in the fact that the way I looked when I woke up in the morning was the same as any other time of day.
I never really considered recon after BMX and love the feeling of bra-free living and my internal ease with being flat......however, I am rethinking recon after 9 months and have only just discovered how to express my feelings about it. I find that flat, I spend a lot more time thinking, worrying and stressing about clothes. No longer can I just grab a tank and shorts and get on with life. Often the armholes are too big, the neckline too droopy, with no breasts to take up even a small amount of space. And don't even think about bending over. Shirts that are semi-sheer require multiple layers to feel comfortable, not so good in the AZ heat. Deciding what to wear has begun to take up way too much time and energy.
Prosthetics are not for me. Any kind of constriction around my ribcage is uncomfortable at best and I don't want to worry about whether things are staying where they are supposed to. I don't have the patience or interest in dealing with forms and such.
I have learned that my chances of a successful recon via fat grafting to help repair radiation damage, TE's and implants are 80-90%. While I was totally unwilling to cut into virgin flesh to harvest boob material, this process seems much more palatable. I told the PS I want to be an A. I want to run, swim and resume my very active lifestyle. I don't want to ever wear a bra again. I want to not have to think about what I am able to wear successfully.
I have been totally flat (ok, concave) for 9 months. I have not tried to hide it. I like the way it feels. I have no problem with the way I look naked.....neither does my husband. But I have come to believe that my life will be easier and more authentically Gail with small breasts. I suspect that recon, if we can pull it off, is more compatible with my lifestyle and values than other options.
I think the trick is to legitimize every option available and make it ok to choose the one that works best for each individual. It's not flat against foobs or recon......it's knowing you have options and the freedom to choose the one you believe will work best for you.
Great thread!
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kestrul-I can relate to much of what you are saying(actually all of it-except the part about considering recon). I am spending(wasting) way too much time shopping both online & in stores. I have never been a shopper. Joking with friends about having a defective X chromosome. I've accrued quite a collection of workout clothes. All in my doesn't really match & I really don't care style. I made it a point to join a gym several years ago where nobody matched but the people who work there.
I'm just not sure why I'm buying all these clothes. Is it because I can find stuff that I don't (think) I look bad in. That acccenuates my thin build. Then I'm buying sleeveless & some backless kind of stuff. I live on California's coast. 70F is a warm day for us & I'm always cold except for now an occasional hotflash. I'm staying out of stores for at least a month! I started last Wed. No online purchases either! Best of luck with your soul searching here.
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Erica.
I love your site. I have it bookmarked and I return to it as I need it. I think your wording needs to be catered to to entire breast cancer community, so it should probably stay how it is.
Can you please explain this sentence?
So, my concern as I read this thread was that by further subdividing this group and thinking about going flat as a THIRD option, this would diffuse the message that non-reconstruction is a viable choice whether or not a women subsequently decides to wear breast forms or to go flat.
Isn't non-reconstruction a viable choice because it presents an individual with so many options? A cup, D cup, Flat as can be? That is how I see it.
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further rambling...
But I do agree with many women on this thread that formlessness and going flat is a vibrant expression of individual choice, a beautiful multifaceted choice, a simple choice that needs to have a face or thousands of faces. I don't want to be glossed over in pink ribbon campaigns, I resent the reconstruct-and-all-this-will-be-over-and-life-will-be-back-to-normal-soon message that I get from the mainstream pink ribbon brigade and pro-reconstruction doctors. This is not OK. This disease is taking more and more lives with each year. Nope, nothing about it is OK.
My doctors made me feel as though I would loose all sense of femininity, womanhood and gender without reconstruction. Really? Is that all it takes? As far as I know a woman is not born, but made with diligence, patience, intelligence and care and the work doen't stop. If I WORE FORMS, I would be hiding, trying to pass as normal. Since I was diagnosed I have been reconsidering my use of plastic products, chemicals, synthetics. I feel like we as humans are reaping a generation or 4 or 5 of industrialization and cancer is part of that or at the least, exacerbated by it. So why not give the earth a break and question my place in it's needs? It feels like a call to action to me.
I am OK with being who and what I am today. I would almost rather just be a human person, do you know what I mean? Reconstruct? The word sounds archaic, harkening to selves past. But then, I have never tied my identity or my idea of self to my form, shape or my idea of gender. I just am. And honestly, I am not the same person that I was one day before my diagnosis. Cancer has changed much about me and not just my appearance.
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MT1, I think I was saying basically the same thing as you. I just meant to emphasize that to me non-reconstruction as an option encompasses both those who wear breast forms and those who don't. I completely agree that one very positive thing about not reconstructing is that we can appear to the world however we wish, A cup, D cup, or flat!
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Mellie, I agree 100%:
I don't want to be glossed over in pink ribbon campaigns, I resent the reconstruct-and-all-this-will-be-over-and-life-will-be-back-to-normal-soon message that I get from the mainstream pink ribbon brigade and pro-reconstruction doctors. This is not OK. This disease is taking more and more lives with each year. Nope, nothing about it is OK.
Erica,
"Form-free" bothers me in the same way that my grandmother calling African American's "non-whites" bothered me. It's a more indirect way of naming something that by way of using something else to create the name is a little disrespectful.
Crying child, can't finish now, will have to try later.
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Reading the posts from the past couple of days - you wonderful wonderful wonderful women!!!! So much love, so much acceptance - we are all trying to make sense of what BC means to each of us, all the losses it includes.... I am so impressed with the clarifying responses with lack of judgment here. I could so relate to all the comments.
I am not always very careful with words I choose, and I learned from a very good friend that some people use words very specifically, and that they convey a specific meaning. I try, but personally tend to think more in images, so words don't have such specific meanings, such as "non-white" or "form-free" or other such descriptors, but I do respect that the nuance of those terms can be very negative so some. So I hope I do not use terminology that offends anyone here, and if I do, please let me know as I would never hurt or insult anyone intentionally.
I also find that I am spending WAAAYYY too much time on clothing. I am so paranoid that I "look funny or odd" and keep trying to find "just the right thing." My sister sewed some pockets into one of my swim suits, and I still haven't used forms in them. But some days the forms do provide that "feedback" to my painful chest - kind of like hugging it gently, other days I can't stand ANYTHING touching it, and mostly, I just hate wearing a bra (always did!).
I kind of think the options are in a flow-diagram: First, mastectomy or lumpectomy (depending on stage & onc team recommendations). If MX, then reconstruction or not. If reconstruction, there are MANY options of procedures, depending on PS, etc. If Not Reconstruction, then forms or not or both(either/or). If forms, then lots of options and lots of challenges for clothing. If not forms, lots of challenges for clothing. If Both (either/or), choose when to use forms and when not to, depending on situation. And a final option is delayed reconstruction for those who chose not to do this initially, and who find they really want an anatomical shape that is more consistent with their own needs. And each of these options should be offered to BC patients, and each choice should be made according to the patient's own values, not those of any physician or well-meaning friend or relative.
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Erica,
Hopefully now I can write a little more thoughtfully. First, I don't want to retract my other post but I want to make it clear that I don't and have never felt disrespected by you or your comments. I didn't get that sentence written well before all heck broke loose but I wanted to get the idea out there.
I think words are important. Words help people claim things. Someone wrote a while back about a roommate going to the Queer March on Washington in the early 1990's. I was there too. It wasn't my first march, but it was part of my process of coming to terms with being a lesbian-leaning bisexual woman. At first all those words sounded harsh to me. I get it that "flat" or some equivalent is going to sound harsh. It's new. It's representative of a concept with which most of us are not comfortable. But becoming comfortable happens on all levels and with time. As we as breast cancer patients, as we as women, as we as a culture become more comfortable with women choosing not to construct breast replacements, we will have to become comfortable with the language and the images.
I recently reviewed "The Scar Project" photos. My reaction to them is very different than it was when I first saw them. I don't see just scars and loss and not being whole, I see women posing and I wonder about them. When I speak about my chest, it's not a decision "not to reconstruct." It's a decision to have a flat chest.
I'm sure calling that section of your website "flat" will shock some people. I hate to do that, and I understand why you change it. But I also think that defining the choice to have a flat chest after mastectomy using the words of reconstruction takes it one step further away from being an equally worthy choice.
On a side note, I am about to receive the most ironic present in the mail. Here I am, posting again on this flat thread, pretty darn happy with my flatness (just miss those nipples), and my MIL is sending me a bra with foobs. It belonged to the 90-something year old aunt of her second husband, who died about a year ago. Halle had been diagnosed with breast cancer 30 or 40 years before she died, and she didn't die of breast cancer. My MIL asked my partner to ask me if I wanted it - Halle was a small woman, like me, and had chosen to wear small foobs so my MIL thought I might like it just to experiment. I never met Halle. I feel really touched to receive this gift. Far more than my slight curiousity about what they might look like and feel like, I feel something very complicated about getting this gift from a woman who went through this loss so many years ago and to slide into her place behind the way she chose to allow the world to see her.
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Kestrel, I can relate to your thinking on this. I am not there yet, and I probably will never get there, but your reasons for wanting a modest recon would be similar to the reasons that would make me start the process. I especially hear you on not wanting to harvest virgin flesh.
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My only rant is that I opted to be flat but I am not. I had a bilateral mastectomy in April (right side was prophylactic). Surgeon didn't get clean margins on the left side, so a week later did re-excision to remove more skin. At that point there wasn't enough skin left to close the wound, so I had to have plastic surgery to remove a flap of skin and tissue from my abdomen to cover the wound on my chest. So now I have a somewhat puffy left side of my chest with a totally flat right side of my chest and a flat right side of my belly with a pouchy left side of my belly. My options are live with it or at some point down the road get more plastic surgery.
So in my case, I would need recon in order to be flat!
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Oh gosh Nancyjac.
Coming to terms with the needs and results related to surgery and cancer are hard enough. I feel for you.
Melly.0 -
The clothing issue. I have been having fun with it. But then I like to sew so I can fix things.
I do think about this in term of breast forms though. Many sites and women who are walking this path, talk about drawing the eye away, wearing patterns, scarves, encouraging the masses to draw their attention to the face.
I am searching for a bathing suit, I have not begun looking in earnest but, I am looking for something without a built in bra, tucks and gathers. I wonder how it will feel when I first don my suit and go swimming. I plan to go to a breast cancer exercise group next tuesday, that will be a good soft entry.
I sometimes feel funny in a simple t-shirt. I used to be the type to think cargo shorts and a t-shirt were fantastic summer fair. Without breasts and with a short cut, that is cross dress territory. And I can have fun with that too, it is part of me. But I need to reenter this portion of life with care. But even before the diagnosis and resulting form change I was steering away from regular old tshirts for more form fitting and feminine styles. I was tired of that form of tomboy style.
And this is what I keep coming around to for myself, I am flat. So be flat. I can't help where other people settle their eyes, all I can do is be true to who I am now.
A friend sent me some snap front shirts, and it has made me realize that is how I feel most comfortable right now, woven cloth, patterns, button front, and feminine but not knock you over the head feminine. I don't want to ove compensate, I just want to have fun with it.
Outfield, I love the sentiment, "the way she chose to allow the world to see her".
Hey, the online magazine wants me to write that article. Now, the pressure!0 -
Mt - great, on the article!
On bathing suits, I also have to get a new one. I'm looking for a speedo. My memory is that they are pretty flat. They are generally sold at sports stores.
I wish I could find women's button shirts that didn't have those breast pleats, since I can't sew. I do wear my husband's shirt occasionally. They're much too big, but I love the texture and the straightness.
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I have alot to say apparently. Really I am thinking out loud and wanting to find personal clarity.
Erica's concern that subdividing the non-reconstructed segment of the breast cancer boards, Outfield's thoughts about defining ourselves by use of words. Non-reconstruction. Form-free. Breast free. Flat. Alexandria mentioned the isolation that half/flat women might feel. When I started this thread, I wanted to encourage you to go flat if you want to, to come out of the closet, so to speak. I do feel under represented, misrepresented by the major pink ribbon campaigns, in doctors offices, the idea of going flat is at least ignored, or dismissed.
If we chose 'non-reconstruction', aren't we flat no matter how we choose to allow the world to see us? And if our intention was to be flat and not wear breast forms, like me, does that count as a 'third option', does it need to? When I was a child I had an album called The Point. I still own this album though now in CD and MP3 format, I named my cat after the dog in the story. One of the lines in the narrative songs was, 'A point in all directions, is like no point at all'.
And my point here is, we can package this discussion from whatever standpoint we choose. The difference is, women who choose to go flat face an entirely different set of social issues than those that wear forms. We are smacked up against ideas of gender, femininity, bucking the norm, not making nice or caring for other peoples opinions and thoughts on how our bodies 'should' look. I didn't wear a wig going through treatment either. (Edited To Add) Another major difference is that those who wear forms have the ability to process their choice privately.
And facing ourselves in the mirror is one thing, bucking the status quo quite another. Normalizing going flat is the point for me and many others on this board, both personally and in our families, at the doctors office and on the streets. Sensitivity training is key. None of us fit in a box. It is different for all of us. But one thing is for sure, we all need the safety of communities like this one to fortify and support our adventures in the wilds.
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Very well put! I agree 100%!
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If you go to Lands End they have cami's that are wonderful to wear as swim tops. They are made of swim suit material with no cups to cut out!! The are wonderful, I think you are suppose to wear them over swimsuit tops, but the are fabulous by themselves!!!
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Melly,
Well stated. Here's my additional point. There's more than sensitivity training, there's exposure. Generally, we hide that we have had breast cancer, so few people realize. We, myself included, pride ourselves on the fact that no one really notices that we're flat. Maybe this is the mistake. Maybe - we should flaunt it. We are flat because of breast cancer, but we are surving and we are beautiful.
There should be pamplets in doctors offices, with pictures showing the possibilty of life without breasts. There should be a Flat Fest every year, maybe alternating coasts. Photographs in magazines. Videos on YouTube. A buddy system whereby women who have not done recon has a woman further on in the process to mentor her.
I'm serious about forming a 501C3 to get this done. I've started looking into it. It's not all that difficult. To form a corporation, under state law, which is the first step, you need trustees - a board of directors. Anyone?
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On the clothing issue, I'm not much of a clothes horse, never have been, either now or before cancer. My preference is t shirts and other pullover tops with shorts, capries, or pants. Some of the clingy fabrics do kind of emphasize that my left side is a bit puffier due to the surgical patch. I stopped wearing all jewelry when I was diagnosed since I had to take it all off anyway for a lot of the scans and treatments. I have also just started going head cover less but my hair is still very short, shorter than most men's. It doesn't help that I have always had a naturally deep voice for a woman and have often been mistaken for male on the phone. So I do have some minor concerns about being mistaken for male by those that don't know me out in the general public. So thinking going back to wearing jewelry (I know men wear jewelry too, but I'm talkin' more girly jewelry) will help. And I plan to eventually get a padded or pocket bra just for those rare occasions that I actually dress up and wear clothes that have a definite boob compartment.
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Wow! I didn't think this was so complicated! I had a BMX 9 months ago and have mostly gone flat, but I just can't manage that in public yet. When I go out in public I wear a Geni bra with the addition of those squishy breast forms that you can get at Target. That gives me just a little bust and I actually am able to wear tops that were getting too tight before breast cancer. I like the options of flat, no bra (yea), or a little bust line.
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Last night I took a ballet class for adults (with no dance experience) with my children's dance teacher. I discussed my half flat status beforehand with her, as I have been very reluctant to go flat in front of the kids at dance because I do not want to be the one to raise the issues for those girls and their moms. It is too personally connected for them, rather than seeing a stranger in public. I just didn't want to go there. But, I talked to the teacher, whom I like very much. When I told her I'd been so carefully shoving stuff in my bra after the gym before returning to dance to get the kids, she rolled her eyes and said, go flat...it is you now! So, yesterday I brought my daughter to dance flat. A few looks of interest, but nothing dramatic. Then I danced flat (well, for me, half flat). So...anticlimactic. What a relief! The two women and their daughters that I was most concerned about were not there, so I still have to consider that...but that will wait til another day.
Happy day! (and as a side note...managed to make a fool of myself dancing and had a very good time doing it!)
Hope all of you are well!
Claire
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I have to relate the story of my encounter with the social worker from the local Breast center the day after my BMX. After they forced me to stay over night (worst hospital out of all 8 I was in last year) they sent someone to see me the following morning. My SX was Aug 4 2011.
Before they will release you they make you see the social worker from the breast center who comes bearing gifts. One of which was a GIANT cone shaped masectomy bra (like Madonna in the 80"s) . One cup was stuffed full of fiberfill and she had an additonal bag with her. I was no-recon from the start and knew I wasn't going to do forms either and this was made very plain to them in the extensive paperwork I had filled out.
She whipped this thing out and said "Lets get you strapped into this to see how it looks." I told her to get away from me and take her "gift" with her. She kept chasing me around the room trying to whip the thing around my back while the one cup that had an entire bag of filling in it (I swear) kept slapping me repeatedly. She finally cornered me because I was trying to carry the dang pain ball, 4 drains, and an XXXL gown that was dragging on the floor by 2 feet-not to mention I had just had a 4hr surgery 8 hrs earlier. At that point I started hollering for help-my BS had just arrived and heard me from down the hall and my sister got there at the same time. I was hysterical and pissed off and screaming bloody murder to get this lady out of there.
If someone had had a video camera it would have made a great U-tube upload. With her on 1 side of the room and me on the other and the BS in-between mediating...social worker said the bra size was appropriate for my overall size (so she was calling me fat without actually saying it) and no real woman would go without some sort of forms and I was unappreciative and needed counseling and she was just trying to help and no one else had ever insulted her like I had.
I have no idea how this woman had kept a job or how many post-op women were intimidated or just too overwhelmed to tell her to go away. Even if you were interested in forms I don't think Day 1 post-op was the optimal day to try it. I was a 40B before sx= she had brought a 40DD with her-she determined what size SHE thought I should be. Needless to say I would not go back there EVER! I never utilized services there that probably could have benefited me because I figure if her attitude was that every woman needed breasts and she was the "face" of their organization then it wasn't for me.
Everyone is different and I say whatever makes you comfortable there is room for all of us here. I was a frequent visitor to breastfree site before sx. Lots of good advice and the pictures were ahelp also. I just knew that flat was right for me-biggest regret is being flat makes your stomach way more noticeable!!
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OMG Lilylady.....I am just sitting here with my jaw hanging after reading that. That is just horrible. I would send all kinds of letters to her organization, the hospital, your BS. What she did wass just totally inappropropriate, unprofessional, and heck, maybe and literally downright criminal!
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Lily-WOW! I guess my friend who brought me a mastectomy camisole a couple of hours after my BMX surgery & showed me that it came with poofy things doesn't compare. We are still friends but whenever I'm around her, I make no attempt to hide my flatness. I actually think I might stick my flat chest out more. That camisole was very comfortable sans poofy things & I thanked her for it.
So, as far as swimwear. I can find what I currently swim in online. Lets see if the links work.
2 piece- http://www.swimoutlet.com/product_p/34261.htm?color=210
1 piece- http://www.speedousa.com/product/index.jsp?productId=12293331&page=2&cp=3124324.11902988.3131432
I mostly use them to swim laps, but did do a little sitting in the jacuzzi at a hotel. I was more worried about LE risk than my appearance.
The 2 piece I find more comfortable, Have worn it to the beach. It was a cool day so I wore a rashguard.
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