Non dairy.....why I feel let down by Jane plant
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Abigail, nobody is hectoring anyone. There is a discussion of the pros and cons of dairy, as per the OP about a proponent of a no-dairy diet to fight cancer.
Also, this is the complementary forum, where, as far as I understood, it was allowed to enter evidence-based arguments into the discussion as well as question claims.
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Grass fed dairy and grass fed meat (which our bodies were used to for centuries) seems to be fine and good for us but processed or highly mechanised or intensive farming (along the lines of farming "industry") is not as it deprives us of essential nutrients that should be there if the cow had access to its natural diet
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Lily, I have long thought that forcing animals or the soil/plants to overproduce probably isn't a great idea, and using a bunch of meds and fertilizers to do it seems like a really bad idea. I also think that we in the West have fallen into the habit of consuming far too much meat and dairy. I am just not convinced that these foods, in and of themselves, are necessarily bad across the board.
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Everything in moderation. That's become my mantra. Eat right and well - mostly plants - and move more. Dairy, meat, whatever is only bad for you when over-consumed. Balance and harmony in all things. If you think holistically, then you cannot point to any one thing and say "... that is bad ..." or "... that is good ..." It is a combination of things that leads to health issues. Some of them we can remedy (our diets and lifestyle); some we cannot (our genetics). But, like momine and beesie, I don't feel that any one thing is "bad"; just the way we use/abuse it. Holistic living is taking the whole into account and understanding the "domino effect".
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Selena, well said and that is sort of where I am too. I am quite disicplined about getting exercise, keeping my weight steady, eating lots of veggies etc., but I try to keep it in perspective.
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Me too but I do find if its around I will rely on yoghurt and bread too much! I only buy organic yoghurt though, vegetables are harder as in this dry climate greens are not so plentiful, and organic ones non existent in this area...........
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Lily, yes, that is certainly something to watch for. I have cut back drastically on carbs, especially "white" carbs.
To have "back-up food" around, I try to keep tomatoes and onions around, along with parsley and already boiled legumes (canned or frozen), as well as mushrooms (fresh and dried) and some frozen veggies. If you saute mushrooms and broccoli with garlic it makes a perfectly fine, light meal and it takes only a few minutes.
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In response to Sydneybased:
"...i can't help but feel let down. This is ...partly because a woman who supposedly saved her own life with careful dietary changes- and who encouraged others to do the same- could lapse her diet to such an extent that she gets a recurrence."
When a woman is diagnosed with cancer, or has a recurrence of cancer, we should feel compassion and sympathy. I don't think there is any justifiable reason or situation in which it is appropriate to be judgmental of someone for being diagnosed with cancer or blame them for it. That's because being diagnosed with cancer is not a person's fault. Cancer is an evil, complicated trickster that does not have one simple cause or one simple cure. We can all take steps to reduce our risk of cancer or a recurrence, but there is no guaranteed prevention or cure. Feeling "let down" because a woman ate what you consider to be the "wrong" diet "to such an extent that she got a recurrence" is pure victim-blaming and I strongly disagree with it.
I'm not familiar with Jane Plant or her work/recommended diet, but I don't believe that ANY one person has The True Cure/Prevention for cancer. If following this woman's recommended diet was seriously all it took to cure or prevent cancer, wouldn't it be mainstream, common knowledge, prescribed by all oncologists?? It's never that simple. I send prayers for Jane Plant's total health and safety and happiness, and prayers for ALL of us to be completely healthy and happy and safe.
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@Raili, What's judgemental about saying one feels "let down"? By her own words in the linked article, Ms Plant didn't follow her own advice. By the dates she herself provides in the article, she didn't reveal the progression of her cancer to her followers for several months after she found out about it, and then only when she could once again claim that the diet she advocates put her cancer into remission. The OP doesn't say she is "let down" because Jane Plant ate what she (the OP) considers the wrong diet, but because Jane Plant didn't conform to her own dietary standards, which she also advocates that others should follow.
Who wouldn't be disappointed if a person she had trusted and decided to follow, as the OP has been following Jane Plant's diet, turned out to be deviating from her own program, had not revealed this fact to her followers, and then afterward continued to promote sales of her book and her specific diet? In the linked article, Ms Plant writes that not just any vegan diet, but specifically Plant Programme One (her own program), "...is the diet for those with active cancer".
If my conventional oncologist were to get cancer (heaven forbid), but didn't follow the "standard of care" which he has been recommending to me, had a recurrence and hid it from people who did follow his suggested treatment plan, but continued to tout a book he had written advocating conventional treatments, I'd feel let down, the same way OP does. I wouldn't be glad he had cancer, but I would be disappointed in such a lack of transparency.
It isn't judgementalism, lack of compassion, or blaming the victim to expect people to practice what they preach, and to be disappointed in them if they don't.
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At the time I started research on July 25, 2013, my partner was in Nissei Hospital in Osaka, Japan, getting ready for breast cancer surgery. According to pre-surgery, it hadn't spread to other parts of her body but there was still the possibility.
Surgery was successful on July 29, 2013 and what was removed was sent to a lab; the result will come back in around two weeks. By then she should be out of the hospital and will stay at her sister's house and undergo radiation therapy before returning to the United States. Thus my interest is how to help her keep the problem from recurring.
Having now read "Pink Ribbon Blues," "Art.Rage.Us," and "Your Life in Your Hands" I fail to see how Western style medicine/surgery is going to keep the problem from recurring.
I spent quite some time reviewing "Your Life in Your Hands" which turned out to be more than 6,000 words so I'll only post my conclusion here:
P-121 "I have not had a day's serious illness since my treatment for cancer. Indeed, many irritating problems that had troubled me for years, such as cold sores, throat infections, thrush, candida, brittle nails which often had infections around their base, and recurrent cystitus, have all cleared up. Also, since I adopted the Plant Program, my rate of tooth decay has decreased markedly. I have given the diet to sixty-three woman, all of who remain cancer-free. These women range from the 70-year-old mother of a Canadian friend, with advanced breast cancer that had spread to her bones, to a young English woman whose breast cancer was diagnosed when she was breast feeding her first baby. The five women who refused to use it or "cheated" have all sadly had recurrences or have died."
Given my background, it looks to me that Plant was not in the best of health as witnessed by those "many irritating problems" that troubled her for years and once the dairy products were gone her body was able to take care of all of them including cancer. As for the sixty-three other people, who knows. Maybe they were in good enough health to deal with cancer and wouldn't have come down with it even though they ate dairy products, or perhaps they also had "many irritating problems" that had troubled them for years. As for the five women who refused to eat it, we know nothing more than that. Perhaps the dairy products were part of the problem, but maybe not. Altogether, her evidence doesn't convince me.
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According to my experience, in general Western medicine is up to helping people deal with illness once it's in evidence, but fails to bring about good health such that illnesses don't appear. Part of this is because many westerners think they're in good health as long as they don't go to a doctor.
Again according to my experience, Traditional Chinese Medicine is more oriented toward maintaining good health because for who knows how many years you only went to your doctor when you're not sick. If you got sick, the doctor had failed.
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@davemclane, I've only read the linked post, not any of Ms Plant's other books, but I don't find what I know of her convincing either. I think she has fallen into two forms of invalid reasoning:
- "false cause", i.e. reasoning that "Chinese women get breast cancer less often than Western women, Chinese women eat very little dairy food, therefore avoiding dairy will prevent or treat breast cancer"
- "post hoc/propter hoc" fallacy, i.e. reasoning that since the cancer remissions of the 63 women, or the improvement in her own health, followed adoption of the Plant Program, the change of diet caused the remissions, or Ms Plant's better dental health, her reduced incidence of infections, and so on.
The fact that her reasoning is flawed doesn't necessarily mean her conclusion is false, it just means she hasn't proven her point yet. It may very well be that diet does affect breast cancer risk. I just did a quick search (vegetarian+diet+breast+cancer) in Pub Med and turned up dozens of papers on the topic. Skimming the abstracts reveals conflicting data about whether vegetarianism reduces breast cancer risk, and, if it does, whether vegetarians benefit because they eat less meat than omnivores, or because they eat more vegetables and legumes. It could even be true that there is risk associated with eating dairy foods. There's another thread here at bco, I don't remember exactly where, describing a study with results that suggest the danger is in the dairy fat, which is where the pregnant/lactating cow's hormones end up. Since growth of some breast cancers is promoted by hormones, it's not unreasonable to suspect that the hormones present in the milk-fat component of dairy foods could be dangerous to those of us with ER+ and/or PR+ disease. In any case, I don't think avoiding dairy products can do any harm, even if it is not proven to be beneficial. Whatever nutrients might be gained from dairy can be found from other sources.I hope your partner's treatment is successful, whether she uses Western medicine, alternative treatments, or a combination.
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Curveball, that is my thinking too. So far, I have found absolutely nothing conclusive to suggest that all dairy must be avoided like the devil.
I do think that lots of people in the West have problems with digestion, inflammation, weight etc., due to eating an unhealthy diet that is too high in animal fat, animal proteins and refined carbs, and therefore too low in fibre, omega3 etc. Probably some of those problems contribute to cancer risk, and so correcting the diet may well offer some protection.
As far as I can see, the key things diet-wise are to eat a LOT of veggies, to make sure you get healthy fats and lots and lots and lots of fibre, maintain a healthy intestinal flora of bacteria (which is where low-fat fermented dairy can come on handy) and go easy on alcohol and animal fats.
I suspect that the diets that prove helpful do the above, even if that is not the stated objective of the diet. I.e. someone who is used to a typical western diet, who then goes veggie or starts juicing or cuts out dairy etc. will typically obtain the benefits I listed.
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@Curveball. I agree, "The fact that her reasoning is flawed doesn't necessarily mean her conclusion is false, it just means she hasn't proven her point yet."
Perhaps the most important thing I found lacking in Plants' book is that while she references both China and Japan as low-milk, low-breast cancer countries, she didn't include what I consider the foundations of those countries life view: the "I-Ching," "The Yellow Emperor" and other related writings which can be summed up as "Five Element Theory."
Although there are significant differences between how meals are traditionally organized, the basic structure comes from Five Element Theory where there is a center and other items arranged around it and that center is usually rice although sometimes other grains. There is no simple cause -> effect; each Element has relationships with the others and those relationships change over time. Thus there is dynamic balance.
Joseph Needham had a problem with this as described in Volume Five of his life-time work, "Science and Civilization in Ancient China." For centuries China technology was far ahead of the west but got left behind during the industrial age. Later, it began to catch up with mechanical technology where Western logic and terminology were translated into Chinese, but when it came to living things it kept the same terms used in Five Element Theory which were incomprehensible to Needham even though he understood Chinese.
Thus it looks to me like Plant took one item, diary products, and put it together with the logic Western mechanical technology to arrive at her conclusions.
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This reminds me why I am not stressing about any on particular philosophy or type of holistic care - only doing my best to absorb and apply what I can as I keep learning and striving. I was SO stressed about the dental stuff - but that is also an unproven theory and many long-term survivors did nothing to address their dental situations. I'm doing my best to take as many positive actions as possible without stressing and obsessing.
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That is really all you can do. Be as healthy as you can be, live well and enjoy life. That's the best that anyone can do. It would be a shame to have gone through the horrors of breast cancer and be afraid of living.
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Interesting to note that while breast cancer rates are lower in Asian countries stomach cancer rates are quite high, thought to be due to h.pylori, salt, and preserved and smoked foods that are diet staples.0 -
Some things just make sense. Whether prospective randomized trials have been done or not. And so it is with (non-organic) dairy, with me. I ate dairy with abandon until my diagnosis a few years ago. Who knows what (or what combination of factors) caused my bc- but I do know that consumption of non-organic dairy certainly didn't help .Have you all seen this?
From some time ago http://www.breastcancer.org/risk/organic_living/articles/dirty_dairy0 -
I think it's important to distinguish between a problem with dairy, and a problem with rBGH. There is nothing to suggest that dairy increases breast cancer risk, and in fact there have been some studies that suggest that it may decrease risk.0 -
Ive avoided dairy nearly all my life. I simply dont like it! But here I am, with BC.0 -
Apparently, according to this breastcancer.org cite, there is rBGH in dairy products. Non-organic dairy products. Certainly, the risk of it, at least. So, to me, it just makes sense to avoid dairy that is not organic.0 -
Well Jane Plant is in the UK. According to the article rBGH is approved for use by dairy producers in the USA but banned in much of the rest of the world including the UK Canada and Australia. The article mentioned a problem in the US about early puberty and wondered what the effect early puberty will have on cancer in the future when these girls get older.
I have a copy of Julia B. Greer's "The Anti-Breast Cancer Cookbook" published this year 2013. Greer suggests rBGH and rBST are proteins which are destroyed by stomach acid and enzymes so do not make it into our bloodstream. Greer does suggest organic milk is better than conventional milk though, because it has been shown in studies in Sweden that the organic milk is more likely to be higher in omega-3's which is good for diminishing cancer. David Servan-Schreiber in "Anti-cancer a new way of life" says the same thing regarding omega-3 and omega-6 in dairy products but that though organic milk is more likely to come from pasture fed cows it isn't necessarily so, milk from cows fed in the winter months with organic corn can be labeled organic too,
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"I was SO stressed about the dental stuff - but that is also an unproven theory and many long-term survivors did nothing to address their dental situations." -------- I am glad to see you posting that, although on the root canal thread you posted quite differently, possibly unnecessarily alarming people.0 -
kathy044- I was speaking for myself - my own opinion of what makes sense and in no way defending this UK woman I've never read or heard of til this thread. And sharing info with all who read this and live in the USA where, unfortunately, rBGH is not banned from dairy. It's safe to assume it's in every American dairy product, or every product that contains US dairy.
The concern raised in the article I linked to from breastcancer.org was, to me, less about early puberty (not relevant to us on board now dealing w. this) than it was about inc levels of IGF-1 in the blood and urine of people who consume products contaminated with this growth hormone. IGF 1 is linked to increasing cancer growth. While there may be so much unknown about this, it seems enough is known to give me pause.
I certainly don't believe US non organic dairy by itself causes cancer, any more than I believe its removal from my diet now will ensure no recurrence. But it's all about taking the information that's out there - about what we know is good for us, and not good for us, and living (sorry to quote Oprah) our best possible lives with that. Maybe some people love love dairy and won't be happy wo it in their diet - fine. If in the US, choose low fat, organic products. (Or buy foreign low fat cheeses ! ). Or limit consumption if this isn't possible for you, just like we shouldn't really eat red meat everyday...
I don't know Jane Greer's work. Thanks for mentioning as via quick google search she seems to have some expertise from which to speak. I'll see if I can get her book from the library as I'm always open to more intelligent opinion on all bc matters.
Re servan shreiber work- because he had limited things to say in his book about dairy cannot be interpreted to mean anything more than that. It just means he had limited things he wanted to say in his book-at that point. He certainly never endorsed dairy or encouraged it beyond encouraging omega 3 vs omega 6. One can spin it several ways, but fair is to read nothing into the absence of information.
You and others can disagree or choose to place greater emphasis on other contrary information, I mainly want to make the point for all in the US reading that I posted the bc link above because of IGF1 concerns in nonorganic American dairy products. (Early puberty is worrisome but another story). I wouldn't want people to read these posts, then not read the link because your post dismisses it as about early puberty.0 -
Jessica, very reasonable points all.
I was, however, surprised that BGH is not that widely used in the US. It is legal, but many dairy farms do not use it, because it is really expensive and the production is not necessarily increased enough to justify the cost.
There is another problem with large-scale dairy production apparently, namely that they milk the cows when they are pregnant, which makes the natural hormone content much higher (or so I read in what seemed to be reputable sources).
At the same time, there is no evidence that I can find to link low-fat dairy with cancer (high-fat, yes, low-fat, no). There is even a few studies that seem to suggest that fermented dairy, like kefir or buttermilk, may be protective against breast cancer.
So I continue to eat dairy in moderation, but I stick to organic, whenever practical, low-fat and goat dairy when I can find it (because they do not usually milk pregnant goats here, I checked).0 -
I use high fat organic dairy for the calories. I lost 15 lbds 6 years ago & havn't yet manages to put it back. I weigh 120, and am 5'5" (was 5 6), I wighed this much in my twenties but am not 20 any more. gary has said that cow's milk, the protein molecule is too big for humans, it being for calves, that thus goat's milk is better0 -
Abigail, I wouldn't worry about the weight. I am not 20 anymore either, but I am about like you (5-8 and about 125).0 -
5'8" and 125 lbs? WOW. We share height but add some tens to the weight... I realize full well that more than what kind/whether dairy or no dairy, most important for me is to reach a healthier weight....(I'm trying!)0 -
Jess, I have very low muscle mass, to the point that most of my docs thought it was freaky/funny. I also lost a few pounds with the BMX
I used to be much heavier, somewhere between 135 and 140, and when I was DXed I had gone all the way up to 150. I lost all the excess weight during treatment, and since then I have just maintained it.0 -
I found some cheese from ireland awhile ago, I assume no growth hormones as they're illegal in europe. salty though. so good with dark grapes. but gave it up after a bit. will look for trader joe's cheese, I miss it.........I've been making strawberry jam for my oatmeal: cut off the away the hulls for juicing, cut the berries in 2 or 3, add to a pot with a bit of water, some maple sirup & quite a bit of cinnemon. cook until berries are soft. too liquid for bread but just right for cereal.0 -
Abigail, in Denmark we always make runny jam like that from berries and we usually eat it on kefir or porridge, just like you do.0
