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Pain in joints—menopause or cancer??

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  • BlueGirlRedState
    BlueGirlRedState Member Posts: 900
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    I take GAIA "joint" curcumin as well as adding turmeric(and black pepper) very regularly to meals. I think both help. Recently I went camping for a week, continued the supplements, but did not have the turmeric powder for meals. I was doing a lot of hiking with poles. Stiffness seemed to get worse, as did the locking middle finger on left hand. I also find that regular consumption of meat seems to aggravate stiffness. I think acupuncture helps as well, recently have added electrostim with it, and I think that might help as well.

    2009 ER+ left breast. 52 yrs. Lumpectomy, Sentinel node removal, negative. Radiation 6 weeks, tamoxifen 5 years. Dense lumpy left breast, normal right. Acupuncture offered at facility as part of integrative medicine. Really helped with anxiety and stress.

    2016 ER+ left breast. Probably a new cancer, but unknown. 4 rounds TC Aug-Oct 2016, Bi-lateral (my choice) Nov 2016, no reconstruction. 2 sentinel nodes remove, negative. Anastrozole 1 mg starting May 2017. Joint issues noticed immediately. Stopped Anastrozole after 3-4 months due to joint stiffness in. After several months of no AIs, fingers were feeling better. Started tamoxifen March 2018.

    6/18/2019 Noticed Swelling in R-arm, opposite side from where lymph nodes removed. Long story short, turns out a new tumor in R-axilla. Started Ibrance and Arimidex 9/2019. Tumor shrunk from 2.5 cm to 7mm (April CT). Hoping August CT will show more shrinkage. Also using compression sleve/glove and pump for lymphedema in R arm.


  • macb04
    macb04 Member Posts: 756
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    I take 2 caps, twice per day of Thorne Research Meriva Curcumin. My hsCRP dropped, I forget how much. I just also saw my pain melt away. It’s my foundational nonprescription med. Good for so, so many things. Helped my daughter’s psoriasis as well.

    I gave my 15yo Wobenzyme 2 tabs, three times per day immediately after she had 4 Wisdom Teeth removed this summer. She continued the Wobenzyme for the next 5 days. She only took a quarter of 1 Vicodin tablet, plus 600mg Ibuprofen the next day. 2 says later she was back to eating almost normally. I have never seen anyone recover so fast after Wisdom Teeth removal. The Dental Surgeon was really surprised by how fast she recovered.

    So in response to your question, Curcumin or Wobenzyme?

    Both, if you are having bad pain, initially. Then try and taper down off the Wobenzyme in a while, slowly.

    They work synergistically, through different anti-inflammatory mechanisms. Some people take both Curcumin and Wobenzyme daily for years, decades even with ZERO side effects.


  • lillyishere
    lillyishere Member Posts: 773
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    image

    This is me! Joint pain and cracking started suddenly in May. I am also thin, active and letrozole user so it must be related to low levels of estrogen.

  • bcincolorado
    bcincolorado Member Posts: 4,700
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    I am small boned and did take meds for 10years for my cancer. You need to get a new primary doc who can order a DEXA scan for you.

    That is what will show what is going on in your bones. Painless and no needles.

    I did end up on Prolia shots for a couple of years myself and now am off but still at osteopenia but since not on meds they said I did not need to stay on Prolia right now where I am.

    I also take Calicium supplements each day.

    Weight baring exercises like walking is also excellent for your bones.

    Best wishes.

  • lillyishere
    lillyishere Member Posts: 773
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    bcincolorad, I had DEXA scan in December before starting letrozole and I had normal bone density. 6 months later, after forced menopause and letrozole, full blown joint pains and loss of muscle started. I assume it maybe estrogen deprivation. It may be the same with jons_girl. But I am not a doctor and I am trying to figure out myself what is going on.

  • macb04
    macb04 Member Posts: 756
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    bcincolorado, taking Calcium supplements without Vitamin K and Magnesium, will cause increased risk Heart Attacks and strokes.

    I wanted to bring up Vitamin K2, which is used for treatment of Osteoporosis in Japan. It is very safe, with no upper limit of toxicity ever found.

    Vitamin K2 works in concert, synergistically, with Vitamin D and Magnesium, to take Calcium out of soft tissues spaces ( like Coronary Arteries or the Aorta) and putting it into your bones where it belongs. Numerous studies have shown it lowers risks of Osteoporosis and Heart Disease.

    And I hope you have all read the studies linking Calcium Supplements with Heart Attacks and Strokes. I have included one article here that said Calcium can be taken as a supplement, ONLY when taken with Vitamin K2 and Vitamin D3.

    I will add that without sufficient Magnesium, you can not effectively chelate that Calcium out of soft tissues into bones, or create strong and flexible bones.

    =========================================

    Science News https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/02/180226122548.htm

    from research organizations

    Low magnesium levels make vitamin D ineffective Up to 50 percent of US population is magnesium deficient

    Date:
    February 26, 2018
    Source:
    American Osteopathic Association
    Summary:
    Vitamin D can't be metabolized without sufficient magnesium levels, meaning Vitamin D remains stored and inactive for as many as 50 percent of Americans. In addition, Vitamin D supplements can increase a person's calcium and phosphate levels even while they remain Vitamin D deficient. People may suffer from vascular calcification if their magnesium levels aren't high enough to prevent the complication.

    ====================================================================================

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27648390/

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31450694/

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30805347/

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26800786/

    =================================================================================

    Essential Nutrient Interactions: Does Low or Suboptimal Magnesium Status Interact with Vitamin D and/or Calcium Status?

    Andrea Rosanoff 1, Qi Dai 2, Sue A Shapses 3

    Affiliations expand

    Free PMC articleFull-text linksCite

    Abstract

    Although much is known about magnesium, its interactions with calcium and vitamin D are less well studied. Magnesium intake is low in populations who consume modern processed-food diets. Low magnesium intake is associated with chronic diseases of global concern [e.g., cardiovascular disease (CVD), type 2 diabetes, metabolic syndrome, and skeletal disorders], as is low vitamin D status. No simple, reliable biomarker for whole-body magnesium status is currently available, which makes clinical assessment and interpretation of human magnesium research difficult. Between 1977 and 2012, US calcium intakes increased at a rate 2-2.5 times that of magnesium intakes, resulting in a dietary calcium to magnesium intake ratio of >3.0. Calcium to magnesium ratios <1.7 and >2.8 can be detrimental, and optimal ratios may be ∼2.0. Background calcium to magnesium ratios can affect studies of either mineral alone. For example, US studies (background Ca:Mg >3.0) showed benefits of high dietary or supplemental magnesium for CVD, whereas similar Chinese studies (background Ca:Mg <1.7) showed increased risks of CVD. Oral vitamin D is widely recommended in US age-sex groups with low dietary magnesium. Magnesium is a cofactor for vitamin D biosynthesis, transport, and activation; and vitamin D and magnesium studies both showed associations with several of the same chronic diseases. Research on possible magnesium and vitamin D interactions in these human diseases is currently rare. Increasing calcium to magnesium intake ratios, coupled with calcium and vitamin D supplementation coincident with suboptimal magnesium intakes, may have unknown health implications. Interactions of low magnesium status with calcium and vitamin D, especially during supplementation, require further study.

    ==================================================================================

    Vitamin K₂ therapy for postmenopausal osteoporosis

    Jun Iwamoto 1

    Affiliations expand

    Free PMC articleFull-text linksCite

    Abstract

    Vitamin K may play an important role in the prevention of fractures in postmenopausal women with osteoporosis. Menatetrenone is the brand name of a synthetic vitamin K2 that is chemically identical to menaquinone-4. The present review study aimed to clarify the effect of menatetrenone on the skeleton in postmenopausal women with osteoporosis, by reviewing the results of randomized controlled trials (RCTs) in the literature. RCTs that investigated the effect of menatetrenone on bone mineral density (BMD), measured by dual-energy X-ray absorptiometry and fracture incidence in postmenopausal women with osteoporosis, were identified by a PubMed search for literature published in English. Eight studies met the criteria for RCTs. Small RCTs showed that menatetrenone monotherapy decreased serum undercarboxylated osteocalcin (ucOC) concentrations, modestly increased lumbar spine BMD, and reduced the incidence of fractures (mainly vertebral fracture), and that combined alendronate and menatetrenone therapy enhanced the decrease in serum ucOC concentrations and further increased femoral neck BMD. This review of the literature revealed positive evidence for the effects of menatetrenone monotherapy on fracture incidence in postmenopausal women with osteoporosis. Further studies are required to clarify the efficacy of menatetrenone in combination with bisphosphonates against fractures in postmenopausal women with osteoporosis.


  • edj3
    edj3 Member Posts: 1,579
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    macb04 thank you for posting this information about calcium and K2. I take D3, and need to take calcium now per my endocrinologist (osteoporosis, values aren't awful but I've had a fractured pelvis and now a fractured foot so yeah my bones suck).

  • lillyishere
    lillyishere Member Posts: 773
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    Thank you macb04. The calcium supplements I take have vitamin K1 and K2, D3 and magnesium build in however, I do take extra vitamin D3. I use is New Chapter: Bone Strength. I ordered online Glucosamine and Chondroitin Sulfate as suggested from the Orthopedist however, I am considering to do Zometa infusions 2xyear recommended from MO not for bone health but decreases cancer recurrance.https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5339994/


  • BlueGirlRedState
    BlueGirlRedState Member Posts: 900
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    macb04 - thank you for the posts on Mg, D, K, Ca. I'm sure many women take some or all of these. All my DRs stress getting nutrients from food as much as possible. Eating "right" this is probaby doable, but might take more thinking and planning. Also I've read that health issues might increase the need for some of these for some people. Just wish the answers were clearer and that simple tests could if levels were adequate.

  • jons_girl
    jons_girl Member Posts: 444
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    Thank you all for your comments. I did order Thorne Meriva SF and the Wobenzyme. I should get that today. I already got the Meriva SF. When you take that do you take it with a meal? Or do you take that between meals? Just curious what I should do.

    I do take Vit D with K....so that is good. I don't take added calcium as I eat alot of green veggies. I am vegan and healthy but my bones are not happy since hitting menopause in April. they have tested me for inflammation....nothing showed up. But I feel like a old lady shuffling to the bathroom in the middle of the night. It is crazy! I am very active and all of a sudden when I sit for a while my joints just hurt so bad to move.

    I don't like to take supplements. I try to get my vitamins in my food....but I will try these two and see if they help with my pain. I am also taking sea buckthorn oil for omegas.

    Will let you know if I get relief from my pain with these two new supplements. Thank you for sharing this info!

  • macb04
    macb04 Member Posts: 756
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    It is hard to get sufficient Vitamin D and Vitamin K2 from foods, especially if you are a Vegetarian. The only vegetarian source of Vitamin K2 is Natto, a fermented soybean food which is something of an acquired taste( I tried it) .

    I don’t know if you ladies have heard of the benefits of Rebounding on a Trampoline for greatly improving Bone Density.

    ===================================================================================

    Effectiveness of a Mini-Trampoline Training Program on Balance and Functional Mobility, Gait Performance, Strength, Fear of Falling and Bone Mineral Density in Older Women with Osteopenia

    Markus Posch, Alois Schranz, [...], and Werner Wlaschek

    Additional article information

    Abstract

    Purpose

    To evaluate the effectiveness of a combined balance-, strength-, and jumping-exercise intervention on a mini-trampoline performed by older women with osteopenia on static balance and functional mobility, gait speed, strength of the upper and lower limbs, fear of falling, as well as to investigate its influence on bone mineral density (BMD).

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6929928/

    ====================================================================================


    Competitive trampolining influences trabecular bone structure, bone size, and bone strength

    Author links open overlay panelLauren A.BurtJohn D.SchipilowSteven K.Boyd


    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2095254615000423

    =======================================================================================

    image

    image

  • macb04
    macb04 Member Posts: 756
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    edj3, just curious if by any chance are you a vegetarian?

    Many people bought into the Low Fat diet to lower risks of Heart Disease.

    Several studies showed Vitamin K deficiency caused a buildup of Calcium in soft tissues ( heart valves/narrowed arterial lumens/increased arterial stiffness) due to lack of transport of Calcium into your bones where it belongs.

    Having a low fat diet/vegetarian diet means you were at a much higher risk of Vitamin K2 Deficiency. For Vegetarians, that Heart Disease risk is offset by avoiding animal fats, but for the nonvegetarians, the Low Fat diet was also Low in Vitamin K2, which is clearly linked to more Heart Attacks and Strokes.

    • Ironically, the best foods to increase Vitamin K2 intake were from the higher animal fat foods. A perfect storm of poor dietary advice probably contributed markedly to the high amounts of Osteoporosis and Heart Disease seen in Western Society.

    =============================================================================

    Vegetarian diets and bone status

    Katherine L Tucker 1

    Affiliations expand

    Full-text linksCite

    Abstract

    Osteoporosis is a common chronic condition associated with progressive loss of bone mineral density (BMD) and compromised bone strength, with increasing risk of fracture over time. Vegetarian diets have been shown to contain lower amounts of calcium, vitamin D, vitamin B-12, protein, and n-3 (ω-3) fatty acids, all of which have important roles in maintaining bone health. Although zinc intakes are not necessarily lower quantitatively, they are considerably less bioavailable in vegetarian diets, which suggests the need for even higher intakes to maintain adequate status. At the same time, healthy vegetarian diets tend to contain more of several protective nutrients, including magnesium, potassium, vitamin K, and antioxidant and anti-inflammatory phytonutrients. On balance, there is evidence that vegetarians, and particularly vegans, may be at greater risk of lower BMD and fracture. Attention to potential shortfall nutrients through the careful selection of foods or fortified foods or the use of supplements can help ensure healthy bone status to reduce fracture risk in individuals who adhere to vegetarian diets.

  • macb04
    macb04 Member Posts: 756
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    I take the Thorne Meriva Curcumin with food in the morning, and with a snack, or on an empty stomach at night.

    Wobenzym should always be taken on an empty stomach. The enzymes are active breaking up scar tissue, lowering inflammation, ect. If you take enzymes with food, then they will work digesting your food, not your other issues.

  • jons_girl
    jons_girl Member Posts: 444
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    mac04: thanks for sharing the info above. So you take 4 meriva a day? And how many wobenzym I wonder do I take per day? I’ve been taking 2 of the meriva.

    I’m vegan most of the time, 99%. Not vegetarian. Dr Gregor states you can get all you need from food. He is a research guru. https://nutritionfacts.org/

    I am pretty healthy overall. Menopause had just messed me up a bit. Lo

  • lillyishere
    lillyishere Member Posts: 773
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    macb04, thank you so much! I have been vegetarian (my choice for animal rights) for almost 10 years until I had my second child who I breastfeed and she had severe food allergies. I went to so many doctors and one of the doctors who wasn't completely main stream, told me I should start eating meat since there are nutritions in meat that can't be found if other food. I had to start eating meat while breastfeeding otherwise I was left to only couple veggies I could eat. I don't like meat, I try to stay away when I can but I travel often in parts of Europe where avoiding meat becomes difficult. This month I feel I am loaded with supplements :). My only concern is how safe are they since we have other medication(s) we are taking. I take letrozole and NP told me it interferes with elderberry. Also the farmacist told me because this medication hasn't been around that long to see the interactions with other supplements, they don't really know what happens. So let's hope turmeric, matcha tea. vitamins, etc. would be safe.

  • edj3
    edj3 Member Posts: 1,579
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    Hey macb04, I was basically a baby step away from full on vegan for probably 6 or 7 years and 5 weeks ago I made the switch. The only real change in my diet from before is now I don't have greek yogurt in the morning and I don't butter my rolls (my relationship with butter was bordering on inappropriate!).

    I'm going to look into the wobenzym.

    My vit D levels are amazing, like brag-worthy amazing esp considering I don't go out in the sun (dx of melanoma will do that to you). Last round of blood work it was 71. I do take vit D, if I don't I plummet to the 30s.

  • macb04
    macb04 Member Posts: 756
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    edj3, I am wondering if you took Vitamin K2 during that 6 year period when you were so close to being vegan?

    My guess is probably not, and thus high probability you were Vitamin K2 deficient then.

    Adequate Vitamin D levels won't help make strong bones unless you have sufficient Vitamin K2 and Magnesium to activate transport of Calcium into your bones.

    The catch-22 of the otherwise great benefits of a Vegetarian/Vegan diet.


    Jons_girl, I just LOVE www. NutritionFacts.org and Dr Gregor.

  • edj3
    edj3 Member Posts: 1,579
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    You'd be correct in that assumption--historically I've stayed away from any sort of vitamin supplements as so many of them have fillers that just wreck my gut.

  • macb04
    macb04 Member Posts: 756
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    I just started my lean, vegetarian 15 yo daughter on a liquid Thorne Research Vitamin D3/Vitamin K2 supplement daily, as I worry about her because my mom had osteoporosis

    image

  • lillyishere
    lillyishere Member Posts: 773
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    macb04, did you have your daughter tested for vitamin D? We were never asked to get tested as family but last year, my 15 yr old daughter's eczema flared up and I took her to a homeopath who asked to have her vit D tested. We just came back from a month long beach, staying under the sun and I didn't think her levels would be way below normal. They were! I started vitamin D, pure encapsulations brand and, finally she got back to normal. Strange to come from the beach and be deficient on vitamin D. I don't even know my levels!

    Thank you for sharing.

  • BlueGirlRedState
    BlueGirlRedState Member Posts: 900
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    Getting D from the sun? Who knows. With sleeves, hat, sunblocker to help prevent skin cancer, living near latitude 45, probably not getting much. Several years ago my MO had me tested, I was on the low side of acceptable, so she suggested I up the vit D, it was fall. I upped it from 2000 to 5000. Months later it was coming up. The next year as summer started, I dropped it back to 2,000 - D levels went down, so I upped it to 5000 again. One thing I read suggested that 10-15 minutes ok and probably healthy. Wish I knew. My grandfather had skin cancer, but worked outside in sun most of career, retiring 1960. Was sun screen around 1920s-60s or recommended?

  • macb04
    macb04 Member Posts: 756
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    So, people who work outdoors a lot, like farmers, and lifeguards do get skin cancer, the more benign, easily treatable Basal Cell, versus Melanoma. It’s the weekend warriors, with intermittent bad sunburns who are more likely to develop Melanoma.

    The higher your D level, the less likely you are to burn as well. So having Vitamin D as a supplement can be helpful, in a number of ways.

    ======================================================================================

    Interesting research just out of Israel on using microdosing inhalers with THC ( the component of pot that makes you high) for Chronic Pain. The really cool part is the they are using such really tiny doses of THC, without causing any psychoactive “ high” occurring.

    https://newatlas.com/medical/thc-microdose-cannabis-chronic-pain-clinical-trial-syqe-inhaler/

    =====================================================================================


    Vitamin D may improve sunburn, according to new clinical trial

    Results show high doses of vitamin D reduce swelling, inflammation

    Date:
    July 6, 2017
    Source:
    Case Western Reserve University
    Summary:
    High doses of vitamin D taken one hour after sunburn significantly reduce skin redness, swelling, and inflammation, according to double-blinded, placebo-controlled clinical trial.
    Share:

    FULL STORY

    High doses of vitamin D taken one hour after sunburn significantly reduce skin redness, swelling, and inflammation, according to double-blinded, placebo-controlled clinical trial out of Case Western Reserve University School of Medicine and University Hospitals Cleveland Medical Center. The trial results were recently published in the Journal of Investigative Dermatology.


    ====================================================================================

    Vitamin D status and risk for malignant cutaneous melanoma: recent advances

    Ombra, Maria N.a; Paliogiannis, Panagiotisb; Doneddu, Valentinab; Sini, Maria C.c; Colombino, Mariac; Rozzo, Carlac; Stanganelli, Ignaziod; Tanda, Francescob; Cossu, Antoniob; Palmieri, Giuseppec

    Author Information

    European Journal of Cancer Prevention: November 2017 - Volume 26 - Issue 6 - p 532-541

    doi: 10.1097/CEJ.0000000000000334

    • OPEN

    Metrics

    Abstract

    Cutaneous malignant melanoma, whose incidence is increasing steadily worldwide, is the result of complex interactions between individual genetic factors and environmental risk factors. Ultraviolet radiation represents the most important environmental risk factor for the development of skincancers, including melanoma. Sun exposure and early sunburn during childhood are the principal causes of cutaneous melanoma insurgence in adults, with double the risk relative to a nonexposed population. Consequently, ultraviolet protection has long been recognized as an important measure to prevent such a malignancy. Biological and epidemiological data suggest that vitamin D status could affect the risk of cancer and play a role in cancer prevention by exerting antiproliferative effects. Solar radiations are critical for vitamin D synthesis in humans; however, uncontrolled and intensive sun exposure is dangerous to skin health and may contribute toward the development of cutaneous malignant melanoma. An optimum balance between sun protection and exposure is thus advocated. Additional research is required to confirm the preventive role of vitamin D in melanomaincidence or a positive influence on patient outcome.

  • edj3
    edj3 Member Posts: 1,579
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    And I will go ahead with the obligatory please remember that you can get melanoma even if, like me, you have/had dark hair and eyes, and like me you didn't get sunburns.

    Melanoma scares me far more than breast cancer. I am very diligent about no sun exposure. One melanoma dx was enough.

  • macb04
    macb04 Member Posts: 756
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    edj3, God yes, one time having Melanoma is more than enough.

    I know I have had several bad sunburns as a kid and teen. I have been vigilant making sure my kids did not.

    I am old enough that sunblock wasn’t an option for most of that time.

    ===================================================================================

    Water-resistant sunscreens were introduced in 1977. More recent development efforts have focused on making sunscreen protection both longer-lasting and broader-spectrum, as well as more appealing to use. In 1980, Coppertone developed the first UVA/UVB sunscreen, which protects skin from both long- and short-wave UV rays.

  • minustwo
    minustwo Member Posts: 13,129
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    Blue Girl - no, no such thing as sun screen for sure from the 40s to the 60s. We had Coppertone & Sea & Ski. Lifeguards put zinc oxide from a tube on their noses. I don't remember any "sun tan lotion" having an SPF factor when my son was young so probably no such thing in the 1970s either.

    I've had 5 or 6 MOHS surgeries for basal cell cancers, but certainly spent most of my life in prime sun country - California, New Mexico, Texas. Even now, I'm in the sun probably an hour a day - although not mid day anymore. And I still get tested for Vit D & take supplements. Thank you chemo.

  • edj3
    edj3 Member Posts: 1,579
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    Yeah my husband is a redhead, the white skin/blue eyes only ever burns kind. He was born in 1967 and had no protection as a kid. He told me his cousins would flip a coin to see who'd get to peel off his skin after his sunburns healed enough for that. Yikes!

    I for sure thought he would be the one to get melanoma, not me. But he hasn't (yet, as he says) although he did have a basal cell removed from his back a couple of years ago.

    And to top things off, my ex-husband was also dx'd with melanoma (on his face!!) so that means our two sons have a much higher risk since both parents have had it. Not the kind of legacy I wanted to pass along, you know?

  • macb04
    macb04 Member Posts: 756
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    My husband has had melanoma taken off of his back. He has brown hair and blue eyes. I know it was a worry for him, but not as much as I worry about osteoporosis and bc for my daughters.

    I used to buy those Sun shirts for them when they weren't teens to prevent sunburns like I had as a kid. I had a sunburn on my chest once, when I switched bikini top types and had it so bad it blistered. My daughters kind of don't believe in those types of sunburns because they have so rarely had them. Now they are teens and are too "cool" for those sunshirts, although they will wear sunblock consistently.

  • BlueGirlRedState
    BlueGirlRedState Member Posts: 900
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    macb04 - glad the kids are willing to use sunblock. Maybe the sunshirts woud be "cool" (what is the term used today?) if they had your kids favorite celebrity on it.

  • jons_girl
    jons_girl Member Posts: 444
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    Getting back to the topic here......pain in joints. Thank you all for sharing what you have used! I am going to see how this works. I got meriva and wobenzyne I am using now. Will see if it works. =)

    Anyone else have things they use for joint pain? Will see if anyone else responds. Thanks ladies for sharing what you use for joint pain! I appreciate that! Have a great day!

  • minustwo
    minustwo Member Posts: 13,129
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    Maybe this was mentioned earlier - my PDP prescribed Voltaren cream. It's OTC now and was much cheaper than the Rx. I have yet to try it.