Is anyone else an atheist with BC besides me?
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Alice and Wander... I had been to an Easter service decades ago and was publicly chastised, along with all the other non-regular attenders, for only showing up on holidays. Although I went to that in order to accompany a regularly attending friend, it was the last time I ever went to church.
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I've heard that sermon too. It was back when I attended regularly, so I didn't feel it applied to me.
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I tend to approach theism as a societal structure. It was needed for social control and explaining the unknown. The complex varieties and practices have evolved over time. On a personal level, my non-theism became more pronounced as my understanding of the world became more, well, more universal. I have no trouble having others be believers. It is choice. Just please don't try to impose those beliefs and values on me.
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Wow, Magiclight, what a rude church. The one I attended growing up was UCC, which was pretty laid-back even in the 50s and 60s. My shy Dad would get mildly embarrassed as we filed out after the Easter or Christmas service, because the minister shook hands with EVERYONE, and he'd greet Dad in his booming voice (trained before microphones were common in church), "MR. ALICEFATHER!! LONG TIME NO SEE!!! HOW ARE YOU?" while holding my dad's hand in a vice-like grip. But he was a truly nice guy, and it was more of an annual routine between the two of them.
I used to attend my husband's Catholic church with him when our son was small. Boy, some of those people were nasty if you weren't one of them from birth. I'd get snubbed during the so-called sign of peace, or get a pissy prissy fingertip handshake while the other person avoided looking at my face. Ugh.
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I wouldn’t go back to a church where I got chastised either. Back in the spring I went to an Episcopal church for an Ash Wednesday service. First time I’ve been in an Episcopal Church in several years. The sweet young priest shook my hand and I could tell he was trying to decide if he knew me. So I sent him an email later and explained that he had never met me but that I grown up in an Episcopal church and was now an atheist. And that I had come to that service because I had recently finished chemo and I loved the symbolism of being reminded that I come from the earth and will return to the earth. I told him that the ritual still had meaning for me even though I no longer believed the theology. And I hoped that it wasn’t a problem that I was there. He wrote me back a very nice email and said it certainly wasn’t a problem to have doubts and that he had doubts himself and that I was welcome again next Ash Wednesday or any other time that I felt like I just wanted to be part of the ritual. I thought that’s exactly the way a good minister should handle it.
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agreed, wanderweg!
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ananda8: Ha! LOL! I took one of those Do You Know Your Bible tests and scored 100%!
wanderweg: I'd love to read your dissertation! Like you, religion fascinates me as does history. Right now, I am researching the fact that during the Middle Passage, many Muslims in Africa were kidnapped and then transported to the Americas to become slaves. Most likely in the tens of thousands, too. Now, who knew THAT? Another one of America's little secrets. Many people believe that Christianity is the religion of America, but the Founding Fathers (often Deists, not Christian) were clear about the separation of Church and State. And for good reason.
magiclight: Beautifully written. Humans tend to love ritual; most likely a survival mechanism in some basic way. Ritual cements communal solidarity, teaches tribal history, how/why things are done the way they are, etc. In other words, humans like to party and have a good time. I used to attend Pagan seasonal events in my 20s...Mother Goddess/Mother Earth religion-style. They were so much fun!
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Long, long ago a man and his son were hunting high up on a mountain, when the boy found a sea shell embedded in a rock outcropping. "Dad, why is there a sea shell here on top of the mountain? The ocean is way down below us."
"Well son," the man said, desperate to seem wise, "once this entire mountain was covered by the ocean. That's how the sea shell got here."
"How could the ocean be so deep to cover even the mountains?" the boy asked.
"Well son," the father continued, thinking fast, "you've seen what happens when the heavy rains come - the rivers swell. Sometimes they run so deep that they even flood our village. Once it rained so long and so hard that the ocean swelled and grew until the mountain was covered with water."
"But what would make it rain that much?"
"The Gods were angry." The father was losing his patience now.
"But why?"
"Maybe because their children were asking too many questions. And if you don't shut up, they'll do it again!"
And that's how religions start.
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❤️❤️❤️
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Love it, Miriandra!
Wanderweg, that sounds like the Episcopal Church my son attends. The first time I went was an evening social event/dinner, and I nearly fell off my chair when the priest (reverend?) said a blessing. Not only was it pretty non-religious, he specifically said "believers and non-believers alike." I wanted to stand up and yell "Where have you people been hiding all my life?!"
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Yesterday I received an unsolicited letter from the Jehovah Witnesses telling me that I should come to their church so I could learn all the truths found in the bible. They did not mention that their bible is different from other religions. Funny that religions have different bibles. When I explored this I found this interesting tidbit: One of the reasons we see different versions of the Bible is because of the number of manuscripts available. There are over 5,800 Greek New Testament manuscripts known to date, along with over 10,000 Hebrew Old Testament manuscripts and over 19,000 copies in Syriac, Coptic, Latin & Aramaic languages.
Wow! More evidence that these are all works of historical fiction.
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Those many manuscripts are all very small bits of the Bible, so we must put them together for the whole. (More complicated than this actually.) Man does pervert the Bible, also predicted by the Bible, but we can still see the difference between the truth and falsehood (lies). I cannot know falsehood w/o knowing the truth first (just as I cannot identify a fake dollar-bill without knowing what a true dollar bill looks like).
I like that individuals can choose for themselves whether Christ represents the truth or is a liar and with whom/where they personally want to spend eternity (John 3:16-18). All our moral laws appear to be in keeping with God's laws aside from two biggies... evidence we're not a pure Theocracy as a Nation.
I need to read up on Thomas Jefferson's beliefs, but I think he was less a believer in Jesus (the God of the Bible) and more a believer in himself/other men. As far as I know, he never identified who the God was that he spoke of. No 'religion' can except for Christianity.
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I don't think it's fair to say that Christ was a liar. The Christ of the bible was a fiction - a combination of bits of real people's (more than one person) lives, and stories made up to grow the mythos surrounding the created figure that was bigger than the men the tales were based on.
Many of the tenets taught in the parables - e.g. be nice, take care of each other - are basic instructions that help people get along successfully. Others are driven by the politics of the time, especially those that focus on the oppression of women and dispersement of slaves; and are proof that not everything written in the bible is universal. And that's ok. We can separate the sheep from the goats, and the chaff from the wheat.
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Here is a link to the Jefferson Bible. It is the New Testament without the religious aspect. Jefferson was a Deist and although he admired Jesus as a philosopher, he did not consider Jesus a god.
"Thomas Jefferson believed that the ethical system of Jesus was the finest the world has ever seen. In compiling what has come to be called "The Jefferson Bible," he sought to separate those ethical teachings from the religious dogma and other supernatural elements that are intermixed in the account provided by the four Gospels. He presented these teachings, along with the essential events of the life of Jesus, in one continuous narrative." http://www.angelfire.com/co/JeffersonBible/
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The Bible (the Old Testament, anyway) was an oral tradition long before it was written. Campfire stories, basically. Stories designed to hold a community together and teach its values. No different then the Viking suckers which merge the Norse mythology and oral history. And I agree with Mirianda that we can’t really say Jesus/the Jesuses were liars. A composite figure can’t really lie. And even if it turned out that the composite theory isn’t correct and it was a single figure, it’s not lying if you believe it. It may be wrong but that isn’t the same as a lie.
And on a different note:
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Here's the difference between the Bible and the writings of men....
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2Tim 3:16)
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thisIknow - I noticed that you're posting on the Christian Woman's thread. I'm not sure if you're agreeing with the spirit of this thread, or arguing with our beliefs.
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Recently read Snow Falling on Cedars by David Guterson. It's not a new book, but I really liked it. There is an interesting discussion between one of the protagonists and his mother.. It's long but thought provoking.
"He had explained to his mother, when she asked him to say grace, that like his father before him he was an incorrigible agnostic and suspected God was a hoax. 'Suppose you had to choose right now.' his mother had once replied. 'Supposing somebody put a gun to your head and forced you to choose, Ishmael. Is there a God or isn't there?'
'Nobody has a gun to my head,' Ismael had answered her. 'I don't have to choose, do I? That's the whole point. I don't have to know for certain one way of the other if....'
'Nobody knows, Ishmael, what do you believe?'
'I don't believe anything. It isn't in me. Besides, I don't know what you mean by God. If you tell me what he is , Mom, I'll tell you if I think he exists.'
'Everybody knows what God is,' said his Mother. 'You feel what God is, don't you?'
'I don't feel what God is,' he answered. 'I don't feel anything either way. No feeling about it comes to me - it's not something I have a choice about. Isn't a feeling like that supposed to happen? Isn't it just supposed to happen? I can't make a feeling like that up, can I? God just chooses certain people, and the rest of us, we can't feel him.'
'You felt him as a child,' his mother said. 'I remember, Ishmael. You felt him.'
'That was a long time ago,' Ismael answered. 'What a child feels - that's different.'
Hmmmm. Sorry if this is too long. I find it particularly interesting because my Mother continually remonstrated with me when I was an adult that I believed when I was a child, so....WTH... None of us really has a choice as a child. I just went with the indoctrination that was forced down my throat. And to be fair, there were lots of good things about the upbringing. Just not the basic tenant.
edited for spelling errors.
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MinusTwo ... if there's a Christian and Atheist thread, then is there a thread where we can come together to 'explain things.' I've seen Christianity misunderstood/misrepresented here and that can't be a positive thing for anyone. Thanks for your post.
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minustwo - Interesting passage. You know, kids believe in Santa and the tooth fairy and no one expects you to cling to that belief in adulthood.
thisIknow - I don't know if that thread exists, but you certainly can start a Christian/atheist thread if you choose. Might generate some interesting discussion. This isn't the place, though - we're here because it's a safe place to discuss atheism, not to have things “explained" to us. I don't go on Christian threads to try to explain to people why their belief system Is illogical, so posting here about the Bible being the word of god (a book we don't accept and a supernatural being we don't believe in) doesn't really make sense.
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Misinterpreted according to who, thisiknow? You? Certainly not according to the people who post regularly on this thread. I think most of us know exactly what christianity is and is not.
This is a place for us to escape christianity's propaganda. Based on what I've read here, most of us have considerably more in depth knowledge about religion, it's origins, history and fallacies than most so called christians.
I know I have examined religion carefully and have rejected it based on my desire to live an honest, decent, fact filled life. Please respect that when you post here.
Trish
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Trishyla ...I might have made it more clear in my first post that I agree with God that each one of us is responsible for our own choice to be a believer or an unbeliever, which is shown in John 3:16-18. So I cannot argue with your choice as it's yours alone and rightly should be.
MinusTwo ...could you tell us what is the 'basic tenant' (of Christianity/or religion) that you said wasn't good in your upbringing?
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ThisIKnow - I don't believe I said anything "wasn't good" or mentioned a 'basic tenant'. I was questioning whether you are participating in the spirit of this thread and agreeing with the people who feel safe to post here, or arguing with the beliefs espoused.
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I think we have our answer right there, MinusTwo. She agrees with her Magical sky fairy that we atheists are free to be as wrong as we want. At least that's what I got from her last post.
I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm sick to bloody death of condescending, self righteous christians getting in my face. Maybe I should be more polite, but I'm not in the mood tonight.
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thisiknow,
Do you post on this thread because in reality you know that it is all ancient stories and myths, that there is no magical being in the sky?
Yes, I understand Christianity. I know there are at least 3 different versions of the 10 commandments and that really there are hundreds of commandments, but they became inconvenient so very few follow them anymore. I know that to read the bible cover to cover is to read a book filled with killing, cruelty and fear. Some sections could only have been written by a sociopath.
The three desert religions all share the old testament and each has spread their tenets by force. The very first thing that Christians did when entering a new territory was kill the priests of the existing religion and burn their books. It spread not by love but by the sword. Now Christians are attempting to circumvent civil law in this country by getting religious exemptions for bigotry. There is a deep seated fear of non conformity in Christian belief. You show your fear by your posts here.
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My husband, also an atheist, said we were being a lot nicer than he would have been.
ThisIKnow, discussion is welcome. Trolling is not. If we wish to learn new ways of viewing and interpreting christianity, we know where to go. This is not the place. Please be respectful.
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So true, Ananda. Their time in power is passing, nowhere near soon enough. Poor persecuted christians. They just don't know how to deal with people who chose to live in the reality based world. It threatens their sense of superiority.
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It''s not Christians that killed those priests and burned their books. Christians don't do that sort of thing, nor are they authorized to. But unbelievers are free to not believe it.
I'll think about starting a thread where we can 'explain' whatever we want about Christianity or any other belief (even unbelief is a belief in....?).
Thanks for the good conversation.
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thisiknow,
You are using the venerable "No True Scotsman" logical fallacy. Of course it's often used by Christians. Here is a non religious example.
Philosophy professor Bradley Dowden explains the fallacy as an "ad hoc rescue" of a refuted generalization attempt. The following is a simplified rendition of the fallacy:
Person A: "No Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."
Person B: "But my uncle Angus is a Scotsman and he puts sugar on his porridge."
Person A: "But no true Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."0 -
thisIknow, you cite an authority we do not recognize on this thread. Please make these kinds of points elsewhere. You have been treated respectfully but we think your certainty is based on hooey. Feel free to think atheism is wrong/stupid, just keep your point of view off our thread. We don't post on the christian threads -- because we respect your right to believe what you want.
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