Is anyone else an atheist with BC besides me?
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shirehouse, bite your tongue! wine can never be off the menu. IMHO.
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Hana is actually my avatar picture. Yes--he is quite a handful and is *very* animated ,noisy,destructive and *always* doing something that he shouldn't be doing
. My other parrot is an African Grey which is very near and dear to my heart (Both birds are close in age). Anechka is my "little girl" so-to-speak, and her personality is the diametric oppsite of Hana's. Anechka is a relatively quiet bird, doesn't talk, but loves to whistle at times. She can sit peacefully on the open-perch in my den for hours and play quietly with toys attached to it. She will also eat a wider variety of healthy food options that are presented to her. Lastly during the late evenings when it is getting closer to her "bedtime", we will both have our "bonding" moments whereupon Anechka will lower her head for me to give her lots of scratches...
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Hana is a hoot and Anechka sounds like a real sweety.
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Thought this might be appreciated here. Up until now I've been a lurker.
http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/features/2010/10/hitchens-201010?currentPage=1
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kmmd - good article. I enjoy his turn of phrase.0
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Thanks for the article kmmd. This is the last paragraph .. I thought it was interesting. Glad to see you've posted!
Ingenious though the full reasoning of his essay may be-he was one of the founders of probability theory-Pascal assumes both a cynical god and an abjectly opportunist human being. Suppose I ditch the principles I have held for a lifetime, in the hope of gaining favor at the last minute? I hope and trust that no serious person would be at all impressed by such a hucksterish choice. Meanwhile, the god who would reward cowardice and dishonesty and punish irreconcilable doubt is among the many gods in which (whom?) I do not believe. I don't mean to be churlish about any kind intentions, but when September 20 comes, please do not trouble deaf heaven with your bootless cries. Unless, of course, it makes you feel better.
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I wish I had his certainty.
The other day (culmination of a very bad week), I was driving home from an appt and in tears. I was so frustrated and upset by the bad week I'd had, and I needed someone to blame ... so I cursed God. I didn't think it would do much harm and I had no one else to blame for my week.
What plagues me is the superstitious aspect of my old faith. It still lingers, even though for the most part I surely do not believe anymore.
Like I sad, I was impressed with his certainty.
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I thought it sure fit this thread. I've been a lurker. I was intimidated by the posts some had left saying that old friends on the boards said after they found out they had posted here, if you feel that way I can't be your friend any more. For so long I've badly needed the support here. I think I finally hit a point where I'm not as terrified to have the support go away, and hopefully there are enough people here who wouldn't use it as a test of friendship it is a mute issue. I think in some ways I'm quite spiritual, just never met an organized religion I could believe in. Coming from the family I did and the small town I grew up in I didn't talk about it with anybody for years and years. Then DH and I had been dating awhile and realized we both felt the same way. What a relief to find someone else out there like me! All through my illness when others said they'd pray for me I smiled and said thanks and took it in the spirit it was meant. Just made me cringe though.
I like the response to the horseshoe in his article. "Apparently it works whether you believe in it or not." Actually quite a bit of it that hit my sense of humor I guess
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I think I need to get a horseshoe for the front door. Maybe it will appease my superstitious nature .. and it might just work!
Glad to see you here kmmd!
hugs,
Bren
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I also don't normally discuss my lack of religious-ness, but when I saw this thread I came right over. People seem quite nice here. No one's sent me any hate mail either. I think if they don't feel similarly, they just don't open the thread.
Welcome kmmd!
I'm not sure I can find a horseshoe in Paris, but if I do, I'll definitely hang it over my door. It will be quite a conversation starter.
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Every so often, we'll get someone barging into this thread who feels obliged to convert us, but that's been occurring much less frequently.
I feel like I was "in the closet" with my atheism for many years. My first public action of "coming out" was starting to post on this thread a year or so ago. When I first saw it in the Active Topics at the top of BC.org's webpage, it was like an electric shock went through me. I was like: "OMG, these people are like me!"
And then it took me weeks to garner the courage to start posting. I was afraid of what my other friends on BC.org would think. I have not had the best of luck in telling friends and family about my atheism. They eventually come around, but it's often horribly uncomfortable.
They often seem to think my lack of belief means I think they're stupid to believe. Whereas I'm just looking for a live and let live sort of thing. I guess I'm tired of people assuming everyone in the world (or at least all their friends) believe exactly what they do.
I try not to be nasty about it, but I think it's good for people to see that their assumptions about other people/groups of people aren't always correct. My born-again sister took my atheism very hard. Then a few years later, she was venting about the actions of some of the people in her church and she said that I act more like a good Christian than these people do!
I took it as a complement. Hahahahahahahaha!
--CindyMN
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One thing I have my cancer to thank for is that it has finally shaken that last bit of doubt from me. For many years after I stopped being a Christian I was a Wiccan and I still held this fear that if I was wrong I would burn in hell. When I finally admitted that Paganism didn't work any better for me, that I just couldn't believe in the whole concept of gods at all I still had a reflexive fear, but I never really thought about it anymore, I just assumed I was still afraid.
I was 3 or 4 days into all of this, still not knowing what my diagnosis, if any, was, nervous and upset about not wanting to die because I love life, don't want to leave my husband, have so much to do yet, all of that when I realized that not once even for a second had I given any thought to god or hell or heaven I knew that over was over I was not afraid of death but dying and I just didn't want to go yet.
I have felt like 10 tons has been lifted off of my shoulders. I have finally shaken that albatross and for me it was almost heavier then the cancer is. No more nagging doubts some judgemental being is going to damn me for eternity.
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My fear was being damned on earth .. not after death.
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@ 3monstmama
I'm sorry I don't know what got into me there for a moment.
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If anyone tries to pray for you, just remind them that the most recent and most thoughly done research study on patient outcomes for those prayed for vs not prayed for ---- drumroll, please -- showed that the patients who were prayed for had WORSE outcomes.
(Note to self: must carry reference to study w/me at all times; never know when I might need it!) But what're you going to believe, superstition or scientifically done random, controlled trials.
Best to all.
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Lunakin,
Here is the link to the study you brought up. http://www.ahjonline.com/article/PIIS0002870305006496/abstract?browse_volume=151&issue_key=TOC%40%40JOURNALSNOSUPP%40YMHJ%400151%400004&issue_preview=no&select1=no&select1=no&vol=
What makes the study truly interesting was that it was funded by a Christian charity called the John Templeton Foundation and was run at predominately Baptist Hospitals along with the Mayo Clinic and other well known institutions.
The study is called:
Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer (STEP) in cardiac bypass patients: A multicenter randomized trial of uncertainty and certainty of receiving intercessory prayer
ConclusionsIntercessory prayer itself had no effect on complication-free recovery from CABG [coronary artery bypass graft] , but certainty of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with a higher incidence of complications.0 -
shirehouse - I had an epiphany (sorry about the connotations but it is a good word) following dx too. I had never definitely committed to atheisism, rather wavered around agnosticism, mainly because people I have know over the years had turned to God when they were challenged by serious illness or other terrible life situations and I thought that if something really bad ever happened to me that would be the test of whether I believed or not. Well, BC happened to me and not one nano second was spent asking for help from anyone other than doctors and the Internet. I am not afraid of being dead but I am afraid of dying, not only because I would be leaving everyone I love, but because I might have to suffer a long, painful, undignified, lingering type of death. Great, I picked about the most likely disease to produce that end didn't I?0
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Just flying by to let you know I am thinking of you all.
Love & hugs, Dawn.
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I remember seeing something about that research Lunakin, and a few weeks later (on this bc.org site) I was astounded to see a religious lady telling all and sundry the exact opposite result of it, ie., people who prayed had positive outcomes and those who didn't, got the negatives.
I smiled to myself while thinking she was proving one of three things:- 1. She has poor reading comprehension.............. 2. The religious brand names are trying to prove their faith is the right one, so she might have read one sponsored by a different brand............ 3. Most religious folk can't read anything that puts a negative slant to their belief system, even if it was the good book itself, which most have not read from cover to cover anyway.
Sheila.
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@ raeinnz That is a great way to put it! I could never be sure that the fear and some part of that belief wasn't still there until I hit a crisis. The whole atheist in a foxhole kind of thing.
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Do you mean these atheists in foxholes?
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@ notself Lovely! I think the Freedom from Religion Foundation has an award titled Atheist in a Foxhole.
I will look at my newsletter when I get home.Shameless plug for a locally based national org. that does great legal work supporting separation of church and state.
www.ffrf.org
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not self
my name isn't on the list for the military ...but it should be I guess..
I was a Navy Line Officer from 1964-1968
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You saw some interesting things in interesting times. 0
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I did
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My epiphany was in middle school when our social studies teacher (do they still teach social studies in school) related the Marx quote "religion is the opiate of the masses." I couldn't believe it, someone had thought some of the same things I did about religion. I had felt I was the only one. I had a literature teacher who said the church shamelessly used the concept of a better life was coming in the after-world to keep peasants in Old England from revolting. This life was about sacrifice and the next life was the reward. The old elephant through the eye of a needle concept. Sure resonated with me.
I just know how very much I hated it when people told me they were praying for me. I'd smile and say thanks, but, could never get how I was supposed to feel if the prayers worked for me and not someone else, or vice versa.
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kmmd, you have just made me think about that 'pray for you' stuff. Maybe we can stop these people from saying it to us and others by suggesting that we (the prayees) won't hold them personally responsible if their prayers aren't strong enough to save us? As long as they can live with themselves afterwards! The idea needs some work but I'm sure we could reduce it to a few short, sharp words that would reach the target like a dart.
Sheila.
Or we could ask them if they know how many people their prayers have saved so far, hmmmn?
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We dined with friends yesterday, so today we had our own Thanksgiving turkey, dressing, etc. I can't move. Tomorrow, I am going to start the winter clean up of the yard and perhaps work off a few calories.
I hope everyone had a Happy Thanksgiving.
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When I was growing up and someone would get sick, everyone would go into the praying mode. If the person made it, everyone would praise the Lord. If they died, then it was God's will. There was a pat little phrase for every occasion. And most people would just nod in understanding. It troubled me then and it troubles me now. Does this really make them feel better? Does it feel honest to others? My cousin fired her doctor and stopped treatment because she was "cured" in a church. She died. What did her mother say? "It was God's will." Maybe it's easier to feel this way, but I just can't.
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Maya, isn't it nice they always had the answers to everything...just don't think them through
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