Is anyone else an atheist with BC besides me?
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Bad is a judgement, so is good. Many things that have been considered bad are later considered good. The more we resist the things we don't like, the more they seem to grow. A quick look at the extreme fundamental religions and cults really highlights this. I don't know if there is a reason for everything, but I believe everything is perfect as it is even when we can't understand why some people seem to suffer so much. Society is still in it's infancy in regards to morality and we are slowly learning how to behave and how to be compassionate with each other so I see the suffering of others as examples that help people decide what they don't want.
An example would be how society has decided that punishment is still the correct way to stop bad behaviour, so we have prisons. Long ago we decided we didn't want POW camps yet society hasn't yet realised that power situations allow similar cruel behaviour, like Guantanamo and Abu Graib (sp?). Some of us are learning that we need a better way to help those who go astray and punishment makes things worse. Our psychologists understand this but politicians who have the power don't understand psychology. Politicians do what it takes to get elected so when society changes, so will politicians. Often it's the extremes like POW camps and nuclear meltdowns that help society to see that things have to change. So how can they be bad?
However, I should say my ideas are still forming and I'm open to change.
It's way past my bedtime so excuse the spelling etc. I hope it makes some sense.
Ahhhhh... Lisa, your balloons can carry me to sleep. Lovely.
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Sheila,
Certain behaviors are bad. Torture is bad. Rape is bad. Stealing is bad. Murder is bad. Pedophilia is bad. Prison is a way of removing people who behave badly from society. It is also a punishment because no one likes to have to be restrained in their freedom to do what one wants to do. Prison is a deterrent and a protection for society as a whole.
Discernment between good and bad behavior, the skillful and unskillful action is a major part of a rational philosophy. Here is an edited section of a much longer Buddhist sutta on using analysis (judgment, discernment) and observation (reflection) to determine one's actions.
"Whenever you want to do an action, you should reflect on it: 'This action I want to do - would it lead to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both? Would it be an unskillful action, with painful consequences, painful results?' If, on reflection, you know that it would lead to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both; it would be an unskillful action with painful consequences, painful results, then any action of that sort is absolutely unfit for you to do. But if on reflection you know that it would not cause affliction... it would be a skillful action with pleasant consequences, pleasant results, then any action of that sort is fit for you to do.
"While you are doing an action, you should reflect on it: ...If, on reflection, you know that it is leading to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both... you should give it up. But if on reflection you know that it is not... you may continue with it.
"Having done an action, you should reflect on it: ... But if on reflection you know that it did not lead to affliction... it was a skillful action with pleasant consequences, pleasant results, then you should stay mentally refreshed & joyful, training day & night in skillful qualities.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.061.than.html#rahula
Judgment comes into play when selecting friends; looking to associate with people who behave skillfully and avoiding those who behave unskillfully, badly. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you but it appears that you believe that judgment is arbitrary and therefore to be avoided. Please correct me if I am misinterpreting your words.
Perhaps you can explain what you mean by "I believe everything is perfect as it is even when we can't understand why some people seem to suffer so much." Are you saying the pain and loss in Haiti, Japan and Pakistan due to earthquakes is perfect and we some how don't understand the better purpose of the earthquake? If so, it sound a lot like "god has a plan". Again, please correct me if I don't understand what you mean.
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How about some Ayn Rand quotes?
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Does everything need to have an answer? If I can't explain something by science, does that mean by default that I must believe in a higher power? Are there no random acts? Why do humans feel the need to label everything as to its purpose--to make us feel like we have control if we have a label?
In my youth I read everything by Rand. She definitely tries my patience now. So I'll leave off the quotes, Lisa!!
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I'm not a Buddhist and I don't know what a sutta is. Were they written by Buddha? Is he "The Blessed One"? Were they written before or after he became enlightened? I believe we should just look to our heart and know what is the best thing to do for ourselves. What others do is their business and if we all acted according to our heart then we would naturally act for the good of all.
Punishment... I don't want murderers or rapists roaming the streets either, but feel we need to have a compassionate system to help heal them of whatever caused them to act out that way. We aren't at the stage where that can happen yet and it could be a century or more before we change to that extent. Meanwhile we could at least treat such people more humanely. That is all outside my power to act or influence so any discussion is merely intellectual.
Cycles... Life, the universe, our earth, all have cycles and they include the movement of tectonic plates with earthquakes and volcanic eruptions. The outcome of building or living in these regions is well known. Putting nuclear facilities on fault lines is surely a form of mass murder. I heard in a documentary that building codes along the American fault lines were watered down and there will one day be huge destruction and lives lost in that area.
We need to look at ourselves as a society and decide what's important. People, profits, convenience, instant gratification? The cost of our blind actions is human misery and suffering. I was protesting nuclear power decades ago but no one cared. I was just a do-gooder loony.
Whether we want to label these things "bad" or not is a moot point. We all agree they result in horrific pain and loss of life. It's only when enough individuals act that society will change.
Perfection... My "everything is perfect" philosophy is too hard to explain in a few lines, I'll try to think of a way to explain it in a later post. I feel for those in Japan who have and are suffering. But the world will not change till we stop focusing on all the negatives. And no, I don't believe in any god or any plan. I'm still trying to figure out what I believe so it could be different next week, but I can't see any god, religion or dogma ever entering my life. I take what seems to be the truth from whatever I read and try to read widely.
Judgement... Should I drink that cup of tea now or wait till it cools down? Too soon will burn my mouth so my judgement served me well. Protecting a child within reason is obviously advisable. But stopping my friend from burning her mouth is not my place. She must learn her own lessons no matter how painful they are. I would of course warn anyone in a situation where they could unknowingly put themselves in danger. But once we start judging others we are on a slippery slope. And of course I judge others all the time by habit and am trying to look through compassionate eyes at everyone and everything. So I'd say my belief is that I can judge what I would do in someone else's position, but to judge them would cause harm to our relationship.
Reflection... We all learn that as kids. I think when we are hurt as we grow up we learn to override our better instincts and lash out which starts a cycle of hurting others and being hurt. I'd like to see kids in schools learning to reflect, being given moral dilemmas to discuss, being given compassionate tasks to perform. We instead teach a load of facts and rules, many of which make no sense. Letting a child think about the result of theirs and others actions is true teaching. Saying "you should not lie, it's a sin to steal" etc is useless and just gives the teachers a false sense of power.
Phew! I hope I've covered all your questions.
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Ann...if I were to quote an Ayn Rand speech it would take five pages...lol
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Sheila,
Thank you so much for your interesting and thoughtful post. I look forward to reading more of your ideas.
Sutta is a Pali word for thread or line that holds things together or a discourse on a topic. After becoming awake (enlightened), Siddhattha Gotama used suttas to express his ideas. They were memorized by his followers (a common activity at the time) and passed along. To this day in parts of Asia, people memorize huge portions of the Pali Canon and publicly recite while judges check the accuracy of their memory by reading a random sentence. The person who has memorized the suttas has to recite the section before and the section after the line and explain the entire context. One man in Thailand recited 16,000 pages of text with an error rate of less than 5%. The suttas were written down approximately 100 years after the death of Gotama.
SoCalLisa,
I found this quote by Ann Rand.
So you think that money is the root of all evil. Have you ever asked what is the root of all money?
Ayn Rand
Read more: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/a/aynrand101601.html#ixzz1GjN2KiIxOf course she misquotes the old saying which is actually "The LOVE of money is the root of all evil."
Then there is this from the same source. I would need to read some context in order to figure out what she means.
If any civilization is to survive, it is the morality of altruism that men have to reject.
Ayn Rand0 -
I've never read anything of hers as far as I know. I thought about taking one of her books from the library but I have many books waiting to be read already. Her long entry on wikipedia doesn't tell me much about her actual philosophy, more about her history and influence.
OK, I just reserved "Atlas Shrugged" online. At least I can start reading it to get a feel for her style and philosophy.
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Here is something about Ann Rand's philosophy from the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy. According to this source, Ann Rand thought the purpose of life was individual survival. Biologists would disagree and say that the purpose of life was to pass on genetic material. I tend to agree with biologists. However, I would need to print it out and actually study it to decide whether her ideas are of 'value' to me.
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/ayn-rand/#WhaEthWhyDoWeNeeIt
edit for clarity and to add link.
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O, no, O no, my favorite place of Spiritual warmth, kindness, lovely flowers, thoughtful quotes, is turning into a discussion of "Ayn Rand" - O, my...time to take a little vacation from reading....happy Spring to all....
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I hope not Caerus, I just mentioned it..but she is worth a read of her books
not reading what someone thinks she says in her books..
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SoCalLisa
Have you read any of her books? If so, is there anything that you would like to share with us?
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The people who like Ayn Rand typically like her a LOT. And the people who dislike Ayn Rand tend to dislike her a LOT! <grin> I'm a voracious reader and I personally could not get into "Atlas Shrugged." I think my problem was that I couldn't find any sympathetic characters. I didn't like anybody in the book, so I gave up and spent time with book characters that I *could* like.
And I'm somebody who read "War and Peace" as a dare to myself. I actually enjoyed it. It's basically a soap opera set during war with lots of long Russian names. <g>
But I'm not much of a philosopher. I took one philosophy course in college (thankfully pass/fail) and fell asleep during it every day. I'm an ex-newspaper reporter, so my mind focuses more on the nitty-gritty physical side of life and less on the intangibles. Probably why I'm an atheist. ;-)
--CindyMN
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ATLAS SHRUGGED was impossible to get through for me. But I read FOUNTAINHEAD twice. My mother, who was a great reader and a very learned woman philosophically and politically, said of Rand's writing, "Well poisoning would be kinder."
I didn't understand it then, can't ask her about it now, but I'm beginning to understand that sentiment!
Cindy, WAR AND PEACE still eludes me. But it's in my Kindle!
Hmmm, and Cindy, I'm thinking it's life's intanglibles that make me lean toward atheism, as well...Excellent food for thought, that line!
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Part of the problem with Ayn Rand today is that the books were written well over fifiy years ago and some the dynamics of the economics, and governments have changed so much.Remember that she was once a Russian under communism.is hard to compare a book that has a philosophy of economics, government and religion under one unbrella. But I have read all her books and tried to put them in context. If one is to question one of the components, it is easier..such as communism versus capitalism, communism versus democracy or a republic. or communism against theism.. Anyhow, I am not of the mind to do that anymore. But the Fountainhead is still a good read and Atlas Shrugged is one to plod through. Who is John Galt?
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hmm food for thought. thanks ladies.. 3jays
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OK you people who mentioned War and Peace. I read it this summer. I was enthralled. but you have to get past the first chapter! and you have to read a really good translation - the translator couple, one Russian the other English who live in Paris and who translated Anna Karenina that Oprah featured in her book club - that is the translation to use.
For his writing sparkles, but most of us are put off when we constantly have to read the 3 names of any person. I beg to differ - it is not a soap opera, I do think it's a masterpiece. The characters are ALIVE. Each of these novels has at its core a story of huge personal growth and fulfillment and yes, spiritual awakening. They are not hard to read. They are just long - and skip tolstoy's pontificating on military strategies if you like, in W & P. Read Anna Karenina first. Then, when you see how superbly it is written - the depth of emotion, character, the political background, the times, oneness with nature, the landscape, the serfs edging towards emancipation, - each chapter unfolding like a movie in your mind - as though (and i read this in the New Yorker) - tolstoy just shook his pen and the words flowed onto the paper -you will want to gobble up War and Peace.
ok blast's over! have a great day-Arlene
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Lisa,
I read them, all of them, years ago. Objectivism, Nathaniel Branden, his relationship with Ayn Rand, her supporters ( including Alan Greenspan) - yes, I know about her and her work. Which is why I don't want to participate in discussions about her. Not what I'm looking for from bc.org. I am FINE with others discussing her, just don't want to be a part of it.
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I know how you feel Caerus.. I don't want to talk about her either..
Edited to add Picture
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When we know what we don't want, it's easier to know what we do want. So if we focus on what we do want we will have much more success.
So, what would you both prefer to discuss?
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We are heading out until next week..hasta la vista
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Sheila - I'm jumping in late here. A couple of pages ago you mentioned your travels. My husband was offered a job in Perth. Very exciting. We are both over 45 - the allowable age of immigration, but hubby was sponsered by an Australian company b/c he has critical skills, they said. However, I'm not allowed in b/c of my Stage 4 diagnosis. I was surprised. I can sort of understand - I am expensive, but sad all the same. Maybe we'll just have a short visit there one day. Perth looks lovely.
Sandy
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Oh, Sandy, that's so sad. Perth is where I would like to go when I visit Australia one day. I hope you can get there...
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Thanks, Anne. I'm waving to you across the gully. I am going to Hawaii in a few weeks, so I'm not really complaining... but Perth did sound wonderful! Aren't you planning a nice trip this summer?
Sandy
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Sandy, What awful discrimination. I've seen some publicised cases where families were turned down due to having disabled children, even though both parents were doctors or similar professionals and there's always an outcry against the government. Unfortunately governments can legislate against discrimination but get away with it themselves.
How are you dealing with your feelings around this?
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I'm disappointed. It feels like a door permantly closing. Of course, I'm encountering limitations as a result of being ill, but I didn't expect this sort of limitation. I'd always wanted to live in another country and thought that now that the kids are grown we'd have our chance. But, that being said, I feel extraordinarily lucky that I'm still chugging along 6 yrs. after this yucky diagnosis. If we do get to visit there, I'm sure we'll have a wonderful time. Thanks for your concern, Sheila.
Sandy
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Sandy, I lived in Perth for a year but found it incredibly isolated. It's a small city and the next nearest city is half a continent away. Being away from family is hard too when facing any crisis. It's worth a visit in summer, but winter there is very rainy. I don't know if they solved the fly problem but spring brought so many flies back in '74 that I was ready to leave and never return. I've not seen that anywhere else in Australia.
I also lived on the subtropical east coast but the heat can be exhausting and the threat of cyclones (hurricanes) and lack of jobs sent me hurrying back to Sydney. I really prefer a more moderate climate, family being near and plenty of job opportunities that a big city brings.
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Sheila - my friend should have arrived at Corindi Beach by now. so I'm thinking of her as I write to you. Good-bye fog! freezing bathroom! exorbitant heating costs! her weather there is pretty arid. she's very, very lucky her deceased husband (Canadian) got citizenship there in the past - and thatr she can return. In many ways our cultures are similar - North american and Aussie - I believe there's a kind of freedom one does not experience in the UK - you would know all about that!
Here's a topic for all, possibly: I guess, as is probably happening all over the world, there is happening in Australia & elsewhere a return to nature, the green movement, a move away from globalization, a move towards the preservation of biodiversity, heirloom seeds and veggies, more humane farming, local food? I am feeling that here, and realising it's been a very long time since I've grown my own vegetables, and, in general, felt this much connection to what's around me when I step outside. I mean - a return to the kind of feelings I had when I first moved to the country in 1971... thoughts while lugging my compost (heavy bags) uphill to the compost pile - snow's gone - I'm in shorts!! crazy.
I suspect that many of the women on this thread are of a "certain age" and have memories of those back to the land days - that whole movement, when we read Adele Davis and discovered whole grains, and moved to buy cheap land, and did macrame
! I myself lived in a tipi and kept bees, for 1 summer - although I was afraid of them.Then a need to make a living and go to the city called and it's been a long time.....but feels good to be reverting - or returning - back to that way of life - for a long time i felt myself a failure because i was not of the corporate world - now, I'm happy that I can feel rich inside by looking at my flowering snowdrops - and it's Ok that I never really "made it" financially - though I must say I sure would love to be able to afford more trips!
Gotta go back outside where the heat wave has reached 56 F (maybe not so good..........as an indication of global warming....)
Metta to all
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Sandy, the fireworks are hailin' over Little Eden tonight
Forcin' a light into all those stony faces left stranded on this warm July ...I hope someone gets it.
Sunny210: I am expensive.
So very sad. I have to say I've thought of that a time or ten in the past year and 1/2 myself.
I'm sorry you won't get to see Perth! Perhaps you could go for a hike in Estes Park instead. One of the most beautiful places I've ever seen!
I'm going to the beach for the day tomorrow for the first time in 4 years. I'll take some pics to share!
Cheers to you all!
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Freedom. That's exactly how I felt when I arrived in Australia for the first time, in Perth. Freedom to go out the door without having to wrap up in coats and scarves. Freedom to drive without stop-starting on crowded narrow roads. To live where I wanted and not be tied to a council box in a row of similar boxes. To have light in winter even on overcast days. Escape from constant family arguments was good till many followed me here. When I've holidayed in England there's something depressing, I can't figure out what it is, maybe the mood of people. Australians are on the whole more easy going and friendly, like Americans.
Adele Davis... I read and referred to her book till it fell apart. When I took a course in nutrition as part of a naturopathic course (which I never completed), I topped the class with 97%. But now I can't remember much except the main principle, just to eat a wide variety of healthy whole foods and keep the processed food to a minimum. I laugh now at what Adele said, remember the liver? And at my 'religious' zeal about nutrition and diet back then.
I love being in the garden but I'm hopelessly impractical and not at all domesticated. Half of what I plant dies or never reaches it's potential. I always say I need a wife to cook and clean for me as it's never appealed to me. I can sew but other crafts never appealed to me. Oh yes, the number of unstarted or barely started crafts we found among my mother's hoards when we cleared out her house was enormous. All dreams that never eventuated, but maybe it's the dream that's important, not the activity or outcome. When she asks me now, from her hostel room, to bring her some hobby materials, I enjoy a lovely excited conversation about colours and styles and possibilities and next time I see her she's forgotten due to Alzheimer's.
Ah... memories and possibilities.
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