Adjvnt Therapy: Destroys or delays growth of stray BC cells?
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Liane I got two opions of whether to do chemo as I only had a 3-4% chance that it would help. Both MO's recommended me not doing it. I am fine with the dicision as I already had some nerve damamge from a car wreck and did not want it to get worse. Had I only known that radiation would have made it worse I would have had a MX and not done the radiation. The RO did not talk to me about my nerves like the MO's did.
I also had an injury. I was in a really bad car wreck 16 years ago in which my chest was crushed against the steering wheel. 18 months after that I was diagnosed with ADH and had a lumpectomy. Then 14 years later I have IDC all in the same breast.
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Does anyone know of, I am currently searching myself, if there are any studies on the effectivenss of Tamoxifen based upon the percentage which a person's cancer is fed by estrogen? In other words, since my cancer is 100% ER+/PR+, I am thinking that I absolutely need to be taking Tamoxifen for 5 years (and I just recently started taking it), but I was wondering for those who are 20% ER+, etc... are there studies to show how benefitical is would be?
From what I have read, and in discussions with others, I think that Tamoxifen does both, delays the growth of stray BC cells because it starves the BC from it's source of food, which can result in the cancer being destroyed because it starves to death.
The trick to me is what to do after 5 years on Tamoxifen in case there are still some cancer cells laying dormant waiting for the environment to change so they can start growing again. I am working on improving my bodies environment so that when I am done with Tamoxifen my immune system will be stronger, but still need to consider whether to move to an AI, have ovaries removed, use alternatives such as DIM or grape seed, etc...
It will be interesting to see what the recommendations will be in 5 years.
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)Proud_mom - Good questions!
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I think you have an excellent point and as lowrider said in the past, she believes that no-one is cured from cancer unless they got IT ALL OUT AT SURGERY, meaning it was an early cancer that had not spread, and actually did NOT spread and they actually did get it all, or all it ever went to were a couple of nodes (sorry, I doubt this usually)..Soo basically I think you are right, that it is a crap shoot. I have no idea why I will go off of Herceptin in September. We already know it got in the lymph nodes. Is this "pre-metastatic"...likely but also maybe not...again a crap shoot. There are women on here (coolbreeze comes to mind, hope its ok I used your name!) that had no nodes and ended up with metastatic disease. So, I suppose it is only 100% curable if it is NOT invasive, that is stage 0, pre-cancer DCIS. The rest of us, it is a bit of a crap shoot.
I think that chemo is capable of killing microscopic cancer cells (and I am contradicting myself now a bit), because they have not taken hold and grown to large numbers, which then grow into a tumor in an organ, etc....and are than essentially immortal. Because thats was cancer is, immortal. It has the capability to live forever until its host dies if not treated or controlled. I do not mean to offend or hurt by implying that women with metastatic breast cancer are hosts, I am just saying that this is how cancer treats us. It is a bastard and it doesn't seem to care that we are women with important long lives to live, with children and husbands, dogs we love, gardens we want to plant, grandchildren we want to spoil, places we want to visit...the list goes on and on and on.....
Personally for me, I hope that surgery got all the cancer cells and that chemo was useless for me, as there was no reason. If this is not the case for me than I expect it to be back at some time and I am just hoping for a long, long remission. When I say long, I mean enough time to see my kids grow up, go to their graduations and weddings, possibly meet a grand child and then have some time to rest and possibly read a book in quiet. So a very long time for me. And maybe a lifetime...that would be a blessing and I would see it as almost a miracle....
I have no idea how this will all end. I have some idea of how it will end but there is truth in saying none of us knows how long we have. I hear this comment over and over from women being treated for metastatic breast cancer. In the past year I have been treated for breast cancer I have lost one friend to pancreatic cancer, another friend to a heart attack and a young family member to suicide. I am still here so you know what I am saying. We just don't know.
I love that you have thought soo deeply about this issue. And it makes absolute sense what you are feeling and the conclusions that you have come to make perfect sense to me.
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ProudMom...Since I am not taking Tamoxifen, I AM taking the DIM-Plus, Grape-seed, Chaga, CoQ10, Vit D3, Turmeric, and a few others. I don't think it would hurt to take these anyway, even WITH your Tamoxifen, or even after.
I also believe as lowrider does.... I believe that since my tumor was removed, clear margins, clear nodes, followed with radiation, that my chances are great.
Just so you all will know....If I could have stayed on the Tamoxifen for the 5 years, I would have. I also know that it is supposed to keep cancer from coming back.... and that is the purpose of this whole topic..... But I chose to quit after 14 months, because I didn't want to take a chance on the SE's doing anything more than hearing loss..... It was also up to me, whether I wanted to take Femara, or Arimidex...... But me being almost 74, and waking up with more than a few aches and pains, I didn't think taking any other preventive drugs would help me more than hurt me.
Kathleen...I know how you feel...... There are a lot of other things I should be worrying about besides cancer coming back....and I don't want to blame myself for stopping Tamoxifen, only because I went deaf...... If I could know, that going back on Tamoxifen, would benefit me in the way cancer would not come back, and that it wouldn't hurt me in any other way, I would.
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Proud mom I have had that same thought as I am ER+60% and PR+80%. I had the tamoxifen metabolizing test done and I metabolize very strong. But I really wonder how much good the tamoxifen is really doing for me. My MO says positive is positive if even by a little, but I still wonder.
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Proud Mom - there are studies suggesting increasing benefit from TAM with increasing ER positivity, though not many. I've seen mention of this issue in the supporting documentation for Adjuvant! But even being weakly positive (as I am) could, theoretically be enough to make TAM protective. If the cancer feeds off of, say, six arms in YOU and science has identified only one (estrogen) and you cut that arm off, it might be enough for the cancer cells to starve to death. Alternatively (my non-scientific theory goes) the cells could adapt and latch onto something else, but they would be weakened.
I do believe that in some people cancer of the breast can die for good. I also believe that many events touted as recurrences are really new primaries. On the stage IV thread I have occasionally read about sisters coming back with different receptor status than they had as early stagers. Doctors often have no way of knowing for sure whether something is a new primary or not.
I also believe (and my onc nodded) that IF a person has enough lag time between first occurrence and the danger of recurrence (probably 2-3 years, at least), complementary measures as in really, really radical lifestyle changes just might be enough to create an environment in your body that is incompatible for life for a cancer cell. By making radical changes, I am not talking about major dietary changes alone. You have to change everything. I have said this elsewhere, but I radically altered my sleep schedule, exercise habits and stopped smoking. I made a few dietary adjustments (including drinking filtered water only) and added vitamin D3. In me, given how disastrous my sleeping habits and no-sun habit were, I hope these measures help.
I may still get cancer, of course, but if I don't have mets yet, I hope it is not the same cancer that was discovered in 2009.
People also have to remember that if you get cancer of any kind your chances of getting any (or many) cancer in the future does increase, at least statistically (and I hate statistics for this).
So many who get a recurrence of BC criticize themselves for supposedly not doing this or that treatment protocol. I wish they wouldn't. It isn't as if the treatments we have are terribly effective in many cases, and it isn't as if there is a cure. The bottom line to me is that, for almost everyone, if you got a recurrence it is because science does not know enough about cancer to have cured you or told you in no uncertain terms how to prevent a recurrence.
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Thanks Athena.... I always hate to question anything, when so many women have a lot of different thoughts.... But in my case, I'm heading down a path, that I have chosen....To just take care of myself, stay pretty active, take lots of supplements, and hope for the best.
So thanks again, for explaining your ideas, and why..... they make sense!
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Thank you Athena and everyone else on your thoughts regarding Tamoxifen and its' effectiveness based on how percentage of estrogen which feeds the cancer. Very informative and helpful.
Chevyboy - I am currently taking CoQ10, Vit D3, B6/B12, MultiVitamin, and drinking Turmeric tea w/ginger, ..... Also working on those life style changes, i.e., improving my diet and exercising more, doing yoga and acupuncture. So keeping my fingers crossed that I am doing everything right, and will continue to be open to learn about other changes/modifications I can make to be as healthy as possible.
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Hi ProudMom...! It sounds like you are doing everything you can....I also hope the supplements work for me, and do their job, Ha!
I have heard of Grape-seed Extract, AND Dim/plus, also Chaga,(mushroom) help somehow with cancer, & antibodies. Another gal on this forum told me about this. So I've added those, plus the Glucosamine....
You have already gone through a lot, so hopefully, you are well on your way to a brand-new life!
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I'd appreciate the info on DIM also. I wish part of a treatment plan was to see a nutritionist or someone who could help advise what vitamins and supplements to take. I really don't know where to turn for all that.
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lee, i had read of women seeing a nutritionist at their cancer centers, and was envious...just at my last visit, after a year at my center, i asked if they had one, and they do!...(nice of them to mention it)..they are booking an appointment for me...sometimes we need to ask it seems. i hope you have access to one, otherwise maybe your onc could refer you to a center nearby?
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Thats life - Thanks, I will ask to see if they can recommend one...and then see if my insurance will cover a visit ! I have to say, this website has given me the most information. I'm really thankful to have found it.
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For the DIM plus tamoxifen study they are using BioResponse DIM.0
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I have been taking the Dim-Plus....I get it at Whole Foods, or even Amazon has it.
I guess you could compare the ingredients with the BIORESPONSE DIM.... I just followed the advice of some of the gals on this forum.... And their Nutritionists recommended not only the Dim-Plus, but the Grape-seed Extract and the Kelp.
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OK, this is something new for me. I haven't heard about DIM-plus. Does someone have the scoop on what it is and what it's supposed to do?
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From what I understand, it is supposed to balance out your hormones.... If you click on that link, or even google both types, you can read a lot more! It looks like the DIM-plus is a lot cheaper also, but with the same ingredients. It is also rich in cruciferous vegetables, which are good for you in case you don't get enough of that in your diet!0
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hillck - I think they were going to do 75mg twice a day but are testing 150mg twice a day now. I think if I am accepted I would get the 150mg twice a day.0
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I find it interesting they are using Tamoxifen plus DIM. I will be interested to see the results. I've wondered about using DIM with one of the AL's.
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Is DIM then a replacement for Tamoxifen or an AI or just a supplement?
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lee7 - Not a replacement but an addition - tam+DIM vs tam+placebo on breast density.0
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Lee- they had a clinical trial for Dim BioResponse alone but beause there are *approved drugs* on the market- you are not going to find anyone funding a DIM or grapeseed extract alone clinical trial for women who have had breast cancer...they will do them for pre-bc. It is something about the ethics I imagine. I modeled my DIM and grapeseed extract regimen on the two old trials I found..I buy the Biorepsonse at whole foods (good sale every so oftern) and my activen grapesee extract at Central Market (HEB stores). What is scary, is they work at least fo rme...I had to be off them for two months and just got my estrogen level test...GAK...went up to nearly not being menopausal...because this time around doc didn't do full estrogen panel (including estridiol) I will call back tomorrow and ask for that next month- that will give me a month back on my *stuff* to
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annette - what doses are you taking?0
