Questioning the legitimacy of cancer specific foods
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Motheroffour,
You have to search each food or spice individually and seek out the specific biochemical mechanism of action. You cannot just look up "food" or you will get "meta studies." Meta studies are not helpful because of their lack of specificity.
You will learn to look up specifics such as "curcumin" or "green tea" and find out what research exists. Often, you will see there is a "MOA" (method of action) that has been identified by researchers, for example, certain chemicals in specific foods prevent vascularization to tumors, slow down cell proliferation, or alter genes.
The National Breast Cancer Coalition's Project Lead course is helpful on reading studies. You may want to take it. It's free and you get the best minds in breast cancer teaching you.
If you are serious, feel free to email me privately. However, I have at least a dozen people on ignore because they aren't serious and just come to the integrative and alternative forums to heckle and give opinions about subjects they know nothing about.
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Day,
Many people assume they have eaten a healthy diet and know what works such as low fat or vegetarianism. That is an assumption. There is much "conventional wisdom" about what healthy/alternative is and most of it is just scuttlebutt.
It takes too long to go, point by point, showing the false assumptions especially if one is convinced they ate healthy. Good luck to you.
Surf's up! I'm off to enjoy my life. See y'all next week.
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Keep questioning, motheroffoursons. Why is scepticism such a dirty word around here? I'd take 100 skeptics over 10 people that buy into The Anti-Cancer Diet or whatever flavor of the month Dr. Oz it peddling.
I have no problem with any of the particular foods mentioned, they are nutritious. Yum, yum, eat 'em up. Whether they prevent or cure cancers is just too lofty a claim, but it sure sells books and reels in the viewers.
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Skepticism is the whole basis of the alternative/integrative forums.
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True enough! (Weren't you supposed to be surfing by now? (She asked jealously.)
Read my new book, The Zodiac Guide to Cancer-Free Eating. Yeah, I cite a few studies, and list the same highly nutritious foods as everyone else, with a few exotic names thrown in like galanga root and fennel pollen. Oh wait, you mean someone already wrote one AND talked about it on Dr. Oz's show? Dang! I'm always late to the party.
I'm off to enjoy life too.
That sounds better than scooping dog poop out of my back yard. Reality check.
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I second Lucy and invite anybody serious to refer to http://foodinfo.ifis.org/download-your-food-science-and-technology-resources-pdf-today/
I also ask the OP why come to this forum with the catchy title ? In the name of what ?
The majority of people on these forums pour their hearts out in researching what works and what doesn't against the beast. And you march in trashing i.e. Dr. Oz, all the others, all the devoted researchers who spend their lives trying to help those of us with BC and everybody else in between.
I would like to invite all the new people who are not yet familiar with BCO forums and who will be reading this thread with its catchy title to read the Natural Girls thread and many others where a lot of sisters have spent a considerable amount of time posting their experience and researching in the spirit of sharing.
Studies ? the OP asks and I respond:
Geeze, I wonder how humanity survived for thousands and thousands of years and managed to pass on its genes and bring the world population to 7.004 billion without the intervention of BigPharm and clinical trials ??????
TRADITIONAL MEDICINE
-Asian
Traditional Chinese
Japanese Kampo
Traditional Korean
Traditional Mongolian
Traditional Tibetan- South & Southeast Asian
Ayurveda
Traditional Sri Lankan
Jamu
Siddha
Traditional Thai
Unani- Mediterranean & Eastern
Byzantine
Ancient Egyptian
Ancient Greek
Medieval Islamic
Ancient Iranian
Ancient Roman- African
Inyanga
Muti
Nganga
Sangoma
Yoruba
Iboga- Americas
Native
Ayahuasca
Aztec
Traditional Brazilian
Maya- Australasia & Oceania
Bush medicine
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Nutrients as Biological Response Modifiers (BRM)
Most Americans choose their food for reasons of taste, cost, convenience and psychological gratification. All those reasons are okay, as long as we do not forget the real reason that we eat: to nourish the cells of the body with essential ingredients from the diet. Everytime you eat, picture the cavalry from the old west delivering the long-awaited supplies to the fort--you better have the right stuff with you. While humans can survive on many different bad diets for years, we can only thrive on a narrowly defined set of nutrition principles.
Know this rule: Everything that you put in your mouth is a BRM
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Maud, the OP didn't trash Dr. Oz. I did (kinda). Not everyone is comfortable with taking medical advice from a tv personality. To each his own.
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I believe that the relatively recent global population explosion is at least in part due to medical progress in areas such as antibiotics, vaccinations, etc. Thank you, Bigpharm, clinical trials and all those brave enough to be a part of them!
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Maud~
The OP has been on BC.org for awhile and I value what she has to say.
I do not understand why you seem so bent out of shape about her post?
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Some of you appear to be on the wrong forum, need directions ?
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O.K. then, if I have to be part of the Oz, Phil, Oprah sheeple group to belong, then I had better move on.
C'ya
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I'm confused here. Who is the OP several of you have referred to? I don't see a poster with that name.
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motheroffoursons, you say are bothered by allegations with no real scientific proof. Me too. I also find that the recommendations on what to eat and what not to eat often conflict from one disease to another. A simple example: Moderate alcohol consumption is good for heart health, and more women die of heart disease than any other condition. But even moderate alcohol consumption might slightly increase breast cancer risk. So what do you do? Me, I generally ignore all the detailed disease-by-disease specifics and just try to eat a diet that is good for my overall health. Everything's allowed but balance is key. And moderation is important particularly for those foods that possibly have more negatives than positives relative to overall health.
This could be an interesting discussion however questioning such as yours is not allowed on this forum. I've made the same mistake in the past, and here's what I've learned about the rules for successfully posting and participating in this forum:
Skepticism is encouraged but only if it is targeted against traditional treatments. Skepticism about any alternate/complementary treatment is strictly prohibited.
Research is important. However only valid research studies should be reported here. Studies that are considered to not be valid include all studies that conclude or imply that any alternate or complementary treatment might not actually provide positive results or any benefit, and all studies that conclude or imply that traditional treatments might provide some positive results and a benefit to some patients. If any of these invalid studies are presented, it will be explained why the study and/or researchers were biased and/or ignorant and/or fixed the results. Alternately, the poster, as the presenter of such data, will called biased and/or ignorant.
Debate and discussion is welcomed, provided that all opinions express full support for the benefits of every alternative/complementary treatment option and trash all traditional treatments and standard of care. Should you want to discuss the merits of an complementary treatment, if you even hint that perhaps the treatment is not all it's cracked up to be, you will rightly be told that you are not welcome here.
Be Polite and do not attack other posters. The only allowable exceptions are situations where someone comes to this forum and questions the efficacy of an alternative or complementary treatment, or when someone voices support for a traditional treatment. These individuals will be attacked for their ignorance.
Be Humble and do not profess your knowledge, even if you are a professional in a particular field. If what you post raises any questions about alternative or complementary treatment, or offers any support for traditional treatment, you will quickly be told that you know nothing about your field, be it research or nutrition or whatever your area of experience might be. Be humble and accept that this is obviously true.
I'm sure that there are other rules for posting in this forum, but those are the ones that come to mind.
And if anyone is offended by what I'm saying, remember that this is the Complementary Forum, where those who support standard treatment (but who are also looking for complementary treatments) are supposed to be welcome. I'm just having a bit of fun here. Lighten up!
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Bee, LOL!
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Oopppss, I did suspect this was a pro-chemo/drugs rally
I'm outta here before I get stampeded !
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That's too funny Maud! You just proved Beesie's post to be entirely correct!
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and your presence here Digger proves my post to be entirely correct ! Too funny !
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Wow Maud, thank you for saying that I had a catchy title. I didn't know that. I just wanted to know if other people are disturbed by the allegations of specific foods for specific cancers without any real trials.
Of course trials would be difficult. How would you get two groups of women with one eating broccoli or something 7 times a week, and the other avoiding broccol for five yearsi.
That being said, alternative and complementary methods are important because they may point the way to real cures. However, there is a lot of conflicting ideas about all the theories and some have to be taken with a grain of salt.
We each piece together the treatments we think have merit and are reponsible for our decisions. Being skeptical is not abnormal. Following every new cure that comes down the pike is abnormal and impossiblel.
Good luck to all of us.
P.S. Maud, I also find it strange that the only reference to chemotherapy in this discussion was from you. Nobody else talked about chemo.
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Thank you Beesie...
It's a shame one can't ask a question about food without being attacked.
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Motheroffoursons and anniealso. Love your posts. Love them. So sick of contradictory studies. Been thin all my life, exercised, ate mostly well. My sister on the other hand never exercises, eats twinkles and diet coke for many meals, is not surprisingly overweight and I'm the one with breast cancer? I say live and enjoy all things in moderation.
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I was just going to try a sentence and was not really planning to post anything here tonight. But this is what spilled out of me. Please accept it in the peace it is meant to be shared.
Sometimes heads spin because people go through all the conventional and do everything they think will help only to find out that it was for nothing, and they need hope, so they go to the alternative and natural forums seeking hope. When there, they are told by people who do not believe in natural and alternatives that their hope will get them nowhere. I quote, "hocus pocus, untried, you will die if you don't, no studies, no proof...."
Sometimes this stance from people who do not believe in what the ones who need NEED need to believe in hurts and that hurt and taking away of the hope is more than can be stood, or should be..... especially, especially if they already did it all the other way.
So, can we put ourselves in the other's shoes (or bras in our case)?
Will I ever go to the chemo forum and say I do not believe, it is not proven? Never. never. And I hope if I go there, from my alternative and complementary forum beliefs and hope and faith and lifetime of experience, saying I need this now, I hope that I will be accepted with open arrms. That you will believe for me that what I am placing my hope in will be what I need even though we all know this is all a huge crap shoot no matter what we do --- we might get what we need or we might be left the worse for it physically and all that can be left worse by placing our faith in any of our choices of treatment.
I agree, this is the complementary forum. Even more reason to put our heads together and converse.
But also more reason to try to understand why the other person is saying what they say, feeling what they feel. We don't know each others story completely, what is happening in their life right now.... not always, but we do know their hope.
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interesting dianeessa - I didn't even realize I was in the complimentary medicine forum when I posted. good point. I do wish everyone disagreed with the same sweetness and tolerance you show in your post.
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I'm not a daily viewer of Dr. Oz, but from what I have watched I have heard him say that he doesn't talk about anything on his show that has not been researched prior, so his mention of foods that prevent cancer have some evidence behind them or he would not have that discussion.
That said, we are free to choose our own treatment options, and I decided that my first line of defense was going to be diet and supplementation for my early stage low grade bc. I wasn't interested in bombarding my body with a lot of toxic substances like chemo or rads at this juncture, because I felt it was an overkill for my stage.
Sugar fuels cancer growth...every study points to that fact, so why put something excess in your body that you know has a possibility of fueling further growth. It would make sense to keep that to a minimum, and it isn't difficult to do. Cut out simple carbs and you're there.
I am amazed sometimes that some will throw in every toxic substance out there to be rid of their cancer, but won't change their diets or lifestyle at all, and before I get jumped, this is not a criticism of using chemo and rads because many times that is needed, but rather a question that if you are going to put all that effort into beating a disease, why not go for it 100% and include diet and lifestyle changes as well. Just saying....
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Interesting thread. Keep in mind this topic is posted on the "complementary" thread which the mods define as "treatments that are used with standard treatment." These types of discussions are interesting because it illuminates all of our frustrations that there not any definitive, preventative measures or cures and so we all do lots of research, talk to others, talk to doctors and given our own individual case decide what is best for us. Chemo obviously doesn't make sense for certain people, but for others we are glad to have it. Same with tamoxifen, etc.... So many different perspectives. Kaara, you mention that you are amazed that some people will do chemo and rads but won't change their lifestyles or diet. And I'm always surprised when people (and I'm not saying you do this) and they are usually "early stagers" denounce chemo or tamoxifen or AIs or...., yet they are taking meds for other conditions or they are on multiple anti-depressants or they take a dozen or more supplements. (And that's another area where the jury is out....No definitive conclusions....
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203499704576623203360213200.html
So, we all should share, not judge and do what's best for our own individual case. (And I do think we should challenge each other when someone makes a dubious claim).
For me....I do standard and complementary. Did the surgery, chemo and tamoxifen and take just a few supplements--calcium/D3 and fish oil. I eat well (always did, but now I'm more organic), exercise at least three times a week, take classes like tai chi, meditation, do reflexology, etc.., I have the occasional social drink and I don't smoke and I try to buy "green" products. And for me that feels right.
Hoping my statements don't get twisted as to being "pro-chemo" and hoping this thread can continue in a civil manner with all opinions welcome.
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Essa, thank you, thank you, you have a heart of gold my little sister
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Great topic. This is the way I look at it. Dr. Oz is televised, catering to an audience that typically isn't the most intellectual. If you consider that one must "dummy down" most discussions into "talking points" for a 1 hour show, Dr. Oz has to make sweeping, generalized statements. I mean, it's a bit sad that our populace is so uneducated in the ways of eating that it takes a talk show host to open eyes to what used to be a "normal" way of eating. That is, fresh fruits, vegetables, lean meats, etc. Our predecessors ate that way, most of the time especially if they were agricultural workers and farmers-- 1-2 generations ago.
In these times, you will encounter people who have never eaten vegetables, proudly. They subsist on a diet of McD's and packaged foods.
So consider that when you think about how television producers format their shows. I think Dr. Oz is probably a decent doctor, but his forte is truly being a luminary/television presence. He's nice to look at, has a good cadence to his voice, and gives sound bites of information. Thus, the sweeping generalizations about what power these foods have.
I look at his presence as a good thing, teaching what should be BASICS in human eating to an audience with an average-to-low IQ.
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Adding to say---
So, please take anything you view on national TV with a grain of the proverbial salt.
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EXPLORE BENEFITS OF SUPPLEMENTS
http://www.livestrong.com/benefits-of-supplements/
Supplements: Nutrition in a pill?
Supplements aren't for everyone, but older adults and others may benefit from specific supplements.
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Not sure why you feel the need to insult those of us who like Dr Oz Marianna...hope it made you feel better about yourself and your obvious 'above average intelligence'.
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Beesie,
I enjoyed reading your post. Very well put together and logical. I have to second the notion about studies being contradictory. This is because each study, independently performed, has a hypothesis it is trying to prove/disprove. Therefore, we don't get a whole view of what a substance can do for the entire health of a human-- we simply get the results of that particular study. AND we've seen that studies can negate previous studies when applied in a slightly different format. That's why it's difficult, at best, to rely simply on studies.
This is where critical reasoning comes in.... make the best choice possible for for your own treatment, as none of us are clinicians, and for the most part, none of our doctors are omniscient, either.
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