Questioning the legitimacy of cancer specific foods
Comments
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This is one of the major reasons why I'm leaving the boards. This is a beautiful example of a perfectly legimate question - which started off well with people contributing ideas and thoughts - and it's turned into a complete bitchfest.
Face it, ladies. Very few of you are specialists. Very few of you are oncologists. I would, even, dare to say that very few of you are nutritionists, naturalists or holistic practitioners. Many of you read hundreds of articles of the internet - most of which are either out-dated or biased or blatantly misleading - or dozens of "self help" books and believe that you have all the answers or - even worse - the ONLY answer.
Well, you must be better than all the oncological researchers- and specialists in the world because even they don't have the answers. And you won't hear from them because they are too busy trying to find the answers to cancer and have very little time to bicker- and bitch, and undermine each other about who's ideas are better, or whose diet is better, or whose supplements are better, and - oh yeah - they don't tear apart a perfectly valid question/viewpoint with personal insults, put-downs, mocking statements, and bully-tactics.
This is supposed to be a supportive forum; where women can meet- and talk about what they are going through; to toss arounds ideas- and viewpoints; to ask questions and discuss answers; and - most of all - to be treated with respect. Why is it that some women - no matter what their circumstances - feel they can just swoop in and belittle someone else's opinion? No one has all the answers. I might even posit that we - especially - don't have all the answers. And it saddens me that women in our position - when we should be pulling together and creating a REALLY STRONG VOICE FOR INFORMATION, RESEARCH, AND A CURE - persist in tearing each other down. It's like bloody high school ...
I'm sorry. This just isn't for me.
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Hey Mallory, I sometimes watch Dancing with the Stars. Just because you watch it, doesn't mean you are dumb. It was not a pointed comment at you, so please accept my apologies. I like Dr Oz too, as he is nice looking, speaks well, and gives tidbits of information. I'm talking general populace, no one in specific.
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"Face it, ladies. Very few of you are specialists. Very few of you are oncologists"
"This is supposed to be a supportive forum"
"when we should be pulling together and creating a REALLY STRONG VOICE FOR INFORMATION, RESEARCH, AND A CURE "
ditto
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Don't quote me, Maud. You've been the least respectful in this entire thread. There are ways of putting forward one's opinion, debating another's viewpoint, and allowing for intelligent discussions without being sarcastic. Yes, it's the Alternative Medicine forum, but that doesn't give you the right to "bomb" any- and everyone who posts valid questions.
This thread would have been such a great "brainstorming" session. When I saw it on the "Active Topics", I dove on it. I was deeply disappointed to see what should have a been a lively discussion with great information degenerate into a barroom brawl.
I'm done.
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With all due respect SelenaWolf, I am sorry you cannot take the blinders off, good luck to you
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The OP was simply asking a question, which ironically has really not been answered. This is in the complimentary forum. Isn't nutrition information complimentary?
People should be able to provide their opinion without being jumped on. Post your opinion, back it up with studies if you like and then let people make up their owns minds. Is it so important to be right...at all costs?
I have been in sales for over 30 years and the most integral part of my job is to provide my clients with product information (without embellishments or exaggerations or untruths) . Once they have all the information it allows them to make an informed decision. Whether they buy or they don't buy doesn't mean that they are right or wrong. They have been given information in a respectful manner and have the freedom to decide what is best for them personally. I don't feel offended if they don't buy. I can't imagine trying to convince my client to buy my product by using sarcasm or attacking them when they have a question.
Why do so many discussions on these boards end up like this? A little respect and manners would go a long way.0 -
motherofoursons raised a question for discussion, a discussion which many of us would have liked to participate in. A discussion which could have been interesting and no doubt would have included arguments both in agreement with and disagreement with her point. It would have been interesting and educational. Your response?
"I pity those like the OP with the blinders on who don't bother to get educated about this issue and can tell same someone is bored and provoking a little action, da !"
"Studies ? the OP asks and I respond: Geeze, I wonder how humanity survived for thousands and thousands of years and managed to pass on its genes and bring the world population to 7.004 billion without the intervention of BigPharm and clinical trials ??????"
So who is it who's narrow minded, unwilling to listen to (never mind consider) any point of view except her own and who insults and mocks rather than engages in a meaningful discussion? If you are so sure of your facts and your positions, then present them and discuss. Stop questioning the motives and intelligence and open-mindedness of those who don't agree 100% with your point of view. This might be news to you, but people with opinions different than yours are allowed to post in this forum, and they should be able to do so without fear of being insulted. Your posts here say nothing about the people you are commenting on but they sure say a lot about you.
SerenaWolf, the only way to change things is to stay and fight and speak up. I'm sorry to see you leave.
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Well...my apologies if 'sarcastic' has rubbed off on me, nothing I can do about that. Way too many threads in the Alt and Comp forums have been shut down because of attacks and sarcasm
The tone of this thread is no different = trash Dr. Oz, trash all the researchers in the fiels of nutrition, trash breast cancer patient who believe that yes eating broccoli will help their condition.
The OP as a rally cry: "I just am bothered by the allegations with no real scientific proof. Anybody else?"
Those of us who do bother to do the exhausting research know full well that the above statement is FALSE and can only mean to provoke
You can all continue to argue amongst yourselves. My interjections were meant to set things straight for the newcomers who are not familiar with BCO and its different shall I say 'factions'
ETA - forgot to mention that one of the tactics is to discredit those of us who are alternative minded. Well done ladies !
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You know....never thought of it, but Big Pharma could be the reason I got breast cancer!! Because I never had children which was my biggest risk factor. And I most likely would have had chiclren without effective contraception.
At the same time, modern medicine is why I am here writing this, as would certainly be in the next world by now if I had not had standard of care treatment.
As for the initial question, my own take is that a post treatment diet differs little from what I should be eating anyway, with the exception of soy which I avoid at this point. I get a lot of fruits and veggies, and otherwise eat much as I did prior to treatment.
I do not believe there any "magic bullets" food-wise. I do try to cook with ingredients I recognize. Last night's dinner was Kurabota ham steak, salsify (a root veggie), green beans, and roast baby potatoes. With Riesling wine. Just yummy, and I had a pear for dessert. I splurged on a Dungeness Crab cocktail at Pike Place Market for lunch. I had steel cut oats with my tea for breakfast, and a grapefruit sometime during the day. I put cream and maple syrup on the oatmeal.
I try not to overthink the food part. Fresh food that I enjoy.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it. - Claire
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I know you are supposed to boost your immune system.
But in my case I don't do that. Why? Because an over active immune system caused my transverse myelitis on 8/13/95. That's right. When I got cat scratch fever,my immune system went into overdrive and ended up causing permanent damage to my spinal cord at the thoracic level.
I still have many residual effects (though thank God I'm no longer paralyzed).
So I am very careful. Cheryl
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Bravo, Beesie! I too have become disenchanted with the direction some of these threads take. A discussion is just that, not the digging in of heels from staunchly polarized positions on either side. Belittling, name calling and arrogant dismissal of different points of view helps no one. Selena, I hope you stick around to contribute your mature comments to a true discussion.
Caryn0 -
"Those of us who do bother to do the exhausting research know full well that the above statement is FALSE and can only mean to provoke"
Some of us don't have time to do hours and hours of research. That is what makes topics like this so helpful, or can, if they go as they should. If the people who have done the research would be willing to post it here and explain it to us who question, maybe we could all get something useful out of this. Show us how and why it is false! We want to know or we wouldn't be here!
I personally have no idea who Dr. Oz is, I don't watch TV. I didn't think the OP was attacking anything, just asking a valid question, that I would like to know the answer to also.
I've been following this thread from the start hoping to get some helpful information for someone who is new to this and needs all the info they can get. For those who have posted real replies to the OP's questions, I say thank you! and look forward to more.
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I'm sorry. But I'm out. I've asked the moderators to delete my profile.
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I'm very sad to hear that. Many of your posts have been particularly helpful to me. Understandable, but sad, nontheless.
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SelenaWolf, I am also sorry to see you leave - I do hope you might re-consider. I appreciate the OP's questions and comments and never thought they were in any way confrontational. It's a healthy discussion and one I know I can learn from.
I agree with Beesie, who said it very nicely. Unfortunately, Maud, you have a lot to learn about respectful dialogue and there is no absolute research in this area ... there is a lot of conflcting research so it is important for all of us to listen to many points of view and then make up our own minds. It's disappointing that your rudeness has forced a valued member to leave these boards. This is not about your opinions. It is about your behaviour.
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The problem here, I think, is that some people treat the question of alternative medicine almost like a religion which has to be accepted unquestioningly. As with religion, I do wonder whether people who are too defensive and close minded about about people's views are in fact so worried about losing their own faith that they cannot allow any doubt about the correctness of their belief..
As to the question of how humankind managed to survive for thousands of years without modern medicine, I would note the following:
Human being reproduce at a very young age, and cancer, for the most part, is a disease of middle to late age. Humans over the thousands of year survived because people reproduced at an age 14-30 or so before they died of disease, hunger etc. , usually in their late 30s to early 40ies..
I will further note that cancer may have become such a big medical issue in post industrial society because it is only beginning of the 20th century in developed countries that average human life expectancy began to exceed the early 40ies, to an age when cancer shows up more and more, a development which can be attributed to a number of causes - but among them, modern medicine.
I am quite willing to entertain the thought that diet and exercise contribute to fighting cancer. I am also willing to consider that the chemicals in our food, water, clothes. etc. may contribute if not cause our cancers. But given the number of studies on cancer survival, I fully support modern medical treatment, possibly combined with alternatives.
BTW, Beesie rocks, as usual.
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Alexandria, well said!
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hrf, pile it on if it makes you feel better but to blame me for someone's decision to dramatically leave on my account, well that OTT, well staged though
Drama, drama, drama
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"Those of us who do bother to do the exhausting research know full well that the above statement is FALSE and can only mean to provoke"
Seriously, Maud? Do you think that the only people who do exhaustive research are those who agree with you? Or that by doing exhaustive research, everyone will of course reach the same conclusions as you?
I'm pretty sure that I do about as much research as anyone else here does. I'm certainly in the top 5%. In fact I'm kind of known on this board for being a bit too focused on the research. I know who the other exhaustive researchers are on this board and I've seen the excellent quality of what they've been able to dig up. I admit that I don't read this forum or the Alternate forum that much - mostly because I know I'm not welcome in these forums - but I have to say that when I do pop in here, I've never been too impressed with the quality of the research that's presented. Doing exhaustive research is more than just digging around to find the one report or study that supports what you believe; doing exhaustive research means finding multiple studies that support the same conclusions. Doing exhaustive research means selecting studies and reports from sources that are legitimate, reliable and unbiased; studies and reports from sources that are less reliable should be rejected, even if their conclusions support what you believe. Doing exhaustive research means assessing the quality of the research to determine if the results are sound and meaningful and even checking the raw data to see if it supports the headline conclusions. I sometimes read through a half dozen reports on the same study before I find one that has enough raw data to allow me to assess if the results are as strong and conclusive and supportable as the authors of the study contend.
Since this thread started off with questions about cancer and specific foods, let me bring up an example from a while back, when the discussion was dairy. The contention in the discussion thread - in this very forum - was that giving up dairy is the key to avoiding breast cancer. As someone who consumes a lot of dairy, I found this to be interesting and wondered if the data supported this. I didn't know the answer, I didn't have a bias either way; I wanted to find the answer. If the data supported the contention that dairy plays a significant role in breast cancer development, I would certainly have changed my diet. So I started digging around. What I found didn't support the contention about dairy at all. I found one retrospective study that reviewed all the previous research on dairy and breast cancer covering about a 20 year time period. There was no connection found between dairy and BC. Then I dug up every more recent study that had been done. The only connection found between dairy and BC was a positive connection, in that the more dairy consumed, the less likely someone was to develop BC, particularly premenopausal women. I posted my finding in this forum, along with all the links so that anyone else could read the studies and draw their own conclusions. The reaction I got was underwhelming. I don't know that there was even a single comment made about the research I presented. Instead, the discussion went on as though I'd never posted, continuing on the theme that dairy consumption leads to increases in BC rates. We believe it, therefore it is so.
That experience is when I learned that research is not taken seriously on this thread, unless the research fully supports that the 'accepted' point of view.
So, Maud, you are completely off base when you imply that it's only the women who agree with you who do exhaustive research. I do exhaustive research, as do many others here. To go back to the accusation that you've thrown at others, you need to get 'the blinders' off!
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Beesie, you do YOUR research and I'll do MINE - deal ?
If you do the unbiased research you claim you do, then you would have to disagree with the OP and, apparently, you don't
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I'm going to ignore the arguments going on and address the OP's question. I think someone referenced the "Can We Eat to Starve Cancer" video on TED. Very interesting stuff. Everyone here knows that I really like Dr. Keith Block and his Life Over Cancer approach - he is BIG into diet and lifestyle as preventive measures.
I follow a mostly vegan diet - eat wild fish and the occasional organic egg, but no meat or dairy. No sugar or processed foods. No alcohol or nicotine. Exercise every day - yoga and/or cardio.
I don't take my tips from Dr. Oz, but I do believe there is a lot of validity to including diet/lifestyle in my survivorship plan. (For the record, I was very healthy before BC and still got it. So I understand the "Well, why bother?" feeling. However, I have read too much in support of dietary strategies, so I have included them.)
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We all have varying stages of cancer.
That is our common "thread".If I don't like what someone posts,I ignore them.
Simple but effective. I may be stage IV,but I haven't had the harsh treatments so many of you have gone through. Nevertheless,I don't waste energy fighting with someone who has a very different opinion from mine.It's just a waste of time,something I don't want to do.
Fight against the cancer,not against each other.
Cheryl
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Hey, all!
I don't have anything to add to the OP's question or the replies here.
My sole contribution to this discussion is: I went to high school w Mehmet Oz MD. I had a HUGE crush on him. As did almost all the girls. He was athletic, sweet, smart and sexy! When I would say Hi! as we passed in the halls, and he knew who I was, I got the biggest thrill. The 1st time I saw his 1st book in a store, I jumped, startled to see his face and name like that... all famous and stuff.
TS
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Actually, Maud, I believe that the research supports that certain foods can have a significant impact in reducing the risk of some types of cancer.
I also believe that research shows that some of the foods that are touted as being beneficial against a particular type of cancer in fact provide only a very small benefit - not enough to be meaningful or to have any real effect, compared to other factors that have a much greater impact. And then there are those relationships between a particular food and a particular cancer that don't appear to be supported at all by any reliable data.
So I don't think the answer to the OP's question is as simple as "Yes, I agree" or "No, I don't agree". In some cases there is scientifc proof to support the legitimacy of cancer specific foods and in other cases there is no proof at all. Surely you've discovered the same from your research?
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PERFECT EXAMPLE - thought of this new topic.
Here I sit eating lightly steamed kale. It's sort of good, though I prefer rainbow chard or spinach. It helps raise my pH, esp w white rice vinegar and pink Himalayan sea salt. But next time I will make kale, chickpeas and garlic salad, or kale, millet, tomatoes and garlic. Or kale chips. These are supposed to be cancer-fighting or alleviating or pH-raising meals.
What bothers me is in fact the lack of enough info. I read in mags and have heard bits of info on some shows, even Dr. Oz when I have watched.
And no, I don't think Dr. Oz is bogus, I think he is now in position to be a reporter in mass media and all the experts are reported by his show and given 5-minute spots for each one's lifetime of study and passion... for the most part.
I have umpteen books to look up nutrition and they say good for cancer because isothiocyanates (ITCs) made from glucosinolates - and because of the alkalinity, I would daaresaay helps tremendously when we need to keep pH high.
BUT I KNOW that with my extreme thyroid issues, the cruciferous veggies, all 13 of them, are to be cooked or in a good bioavailable supplement, not salad. Most should be fermented. I should be more limited, which is difficult. I also know w my alternative choices and ER+ the DIM is needed.
It is crazy making. But I want so much to do what is best for me. Yes, for most, this is a good thing, and why not eat as much as possible, but for me, remains the dilemna.
One of my favorite sites on food is this with extremely well written and organized info and includes the scientific research and data at the bottom.
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What is the ph thing all about and how do you measure your ph?
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The OP asked a simple question that may have complex opinions or answers.
Quote| "I think we need to pay attention to diet to keep healthy and keep our immune system functioning at high levels. But I am very bothered by the one to one correspondence of certain foods to certain cancers. I don't think there are foods for specific cancers, as even breast cancer is composed of all different types.
I just am bothered by the allegations with no real scientific proof. Anybody else?"
A few posts later she is somewhat blasted with snide and snarky comments and suspicions that she is trying to stir the pot. I don't get the reason for doingthat to the OP. This is the complimentary forum where I believe nutrition questions belong. Isn't nutrition complimentary to standard treatments?
Beesie thank you for your posts and thank you for not insisting that everyone who reads them must agree with you or else they have blinders on.
And I agree that sometimes you have to speak up but I also understand why Selena is leaving. These spats are exhausting especially when you are just interested in a topic and posing a question.
This board provides such a great opportunity for discussion and learning but it is so disheartening to see it turn into a slugfest. The key is "discussion". Provide your opinion, post references if you like and leave it at that. There is no need to insist that someone agrees with your opinion or interpretation. Provide insightful info and allow someone to make an informed decision for themselves. Don't take it personal don't name call and belittle anyone because in the end you lose your credibility.
It is increasingly difficult to post on so many topics at BCO due to the fear of being humiliated and jumped on by some fellow BC sisters.0 -
Your 'brush with fame', twistedsteel.
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Beesie obviously does extensive research and I have never seen her blast someone for not being in agreement with her.
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Beesie, "compared to other factors that have a much greater impact" you are alluding to chemo, correct me if I'm wrong...
And to answer your question, in the past two years I have seen an overwhelming amount of research and consensus that specific nutrients prevent cancer
You people are asking me to produce research, how about checking my first post for starters that you are so conveniently ignoring. All laid out and chewed up for you. Like another sister said: "You do need to do the heavy lifting yourselves"
You all echoed the OP in her statement: "I just am bothered by the allegations with no real scientific proof".
Now, I would like to see the research that discredits the use of let's say curcumin against all the research that concludes it does prevent cancer. You are making the claims, up to you to produce the research.
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