Questioning the legitimacy of cancer specific foods
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Momine
A fasting blood sugar in the upper 90's?
If you were a diabetic that would be great. Even so,it's great. If you go too much lower,you would be hypoglycemic,and believe me you don't want that. There can be too much of a "good" thing.
I am a diabetic and sugar does not raise my glucose level much,but if I eat carbs it skyrockets!
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Cheryl, yes, fasting glucose 95-100. I am not diabetic though and I used to have fasting glucose somewhere in the 85-90 range. I know it is not a huge difference, but it is a distinct difference that coincides with cancer, so I suspect there is some sort of connection.
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I think its really important that 'sugar' can be used to describe the white stuff you put in your mom's coffee but 'sugars' are very important nutrients which your body gets from various foods like fruit, bread, grains etc. Not much in meat to be fair tho. Thats why blood glucose levels are elevated by eating carbs, cos sweet or not they contain sugars. Its almost impossible to stop eating sugar to be plain. Should we stop eating donuts? Fraid so! But very low carb diets can have a dramatic effect on mood, energy and hydration (as anyone with diabetes) will affirm, these are not effects which help to maintain a healthy immune system. So as usual it is back to dull old moderation
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I find the overall question of food and disease intriguing. Going back to the OP, the question about "scientific proof" is reallly difficult in this situation. Dietary research is notoriously hard to do.
To know if a food truly changes a human being's risk for cancer or risk for recurrence of a cancer, we'd have to be able to take a bunch of very similar people, split them into two groups, give one the food, and see what happens over years and years. If the effect is small, which is likely, we'd need massive numbers and a lot of time. In practical terms, it's really tough to do. Tough to get funding for, not considered "sexy" (I hate that word when researchers use it, but they do), and tough to control people's behavior for that long.
What you see in this thread are links to benchwork, or research done on something other than a whole, living person. I'm not making a value judgement about that kind of science - we need it, it's good stuff. But a human body is more complicated than a cell line, and it's not a rat's body. We've seen with umpteen drugs in development that they can look great until the actual trials, then the picture changes. For example, there is a drug called dapagliflozin in development for treating diabetes. Very interesting drug, works in a completely new way from other diabetes drugs. Looking great until the phase III trials - now its future is in limbo because of a possible increased risk of some cancers. I don't think anybody expected that.
Getting to whole-food research from benchwork, or going from whole food to the bench, is even more complicated than drugs because food is more complicated. People don't generally eat one particular phytochemical, they eat broccoli or blueberries.
So most nutritional research is either the benchwork, or it's observational. Observational nutritional data is really, really untrustable. People who eat the same way may live in the same place and have other shared exposures. They are more likely to share other behaviors, including the intake of foods other than the one of interest.
Consider also that many true human studies are short and don't look at hard outcomes. A hard outcome is going to be something like death or recurrence, but much of what I find to be interesting nutritional research can't use them. For an example, go to the PP's link to the 60 minutes piece. At the end there's a bit about a researcher looking at diet in a very controlled setting, monitoring people very closely, including checking LDL cholesterol. It's very interesting and I think compelling. But at the end of the day, what's really important is not the LDL level, but whether the person developed a disease or died. The LDL level is "surrogate endpoint." In this setting, it's the best they can do. They can't hold those people in those rooms until they die. So surrogate outcomes are useful and you get information more quickly, but it's not the whole picture. We learned this lesson with ezetimibe, which does lower LDL cholesterol but inexplicably doesn't reduce a person's risk of heart attack the same way statin drugs do.
That leaves us with a mish-mash of theoretical statements based on observational studies or benchwork, some fascinating metabolic research using surrogate endpoints, but no hard numbers in whole people.
I would love to know if eating broccoli sprouts or blueberries or mushrooms or whatever would reduce my risk of recurrence. In my particular situation, if eating some particular food would lower my risk of recurrence even 1%, I'd do it. In the absence of good "scientific proof," my personal approach is to try to extrapolate what I can from the mish-mash that is out there. But there may be a certain amount of risk in that.
Consider what has happened in this country following dietary recommendations in the 1970's to lower fat intake, in particular saturated fat. Health has not improved. We've gotten better at treating coronary artery disease, but it didn't go away. Then the big oops - turns out the fat story is more complicated than we knew. Maybe it wasn't such a good idea to use margarine instead of butter and eat more low-fat, high-sugar cookies because they're not as satisfying as the full-fat ones. It's very possible, I would say probable, that the general dietary advice given by well-meaning experts, based on the available information at the time, hurt people.
There is a concept called "equipoise" in clinical (full-human) research. It means that you acknowledge that an intervention may help, but also the chance it may harm: the balance is unknown. My oncologists and I talked about this when I decided to start metformin (which is by the way very cheap because it's an old drug). I don't see the awareness of this uncertainty in many of the recommendations made about diet in really a broad range of settings. And really, making a dietary recommendation is not too different from putting people into a clinical trial - for most of the things that anyone is going to recommend, there has not been good research truly looking at important outcomes.
So very long-winded but yes, I wish there were "scientific proof." I can't comment about Dr. Oz, have never seen him, but I often see statements made in the popular press that do bother me. I am wary of their true purpose and always annoyed by their lack of citations. But I think food itself is intriguing. I really wish we knew more. I think there's great foundation - for example just follow all the links in PP's to studies with cucumerin - we just need to figure out practical ways the real outcomes research can be done.
Personally, I have done quite a bit of reading - Pubmed and other sources - about nutrition and food. I continue to work out what I think may be the best way for me to eat to reduce the risk of recurrence. I have made huge changes. The overall effect on my body of changing how I eat has been very, very obvious - much more obvious to me than the overall effects of the AI I take. I realize that some of the things I'm doing are big leaps from the little that is known. I am not going to proselytize about what I'm doing. I think changing my own behavior is very different from publishing an article in a glossy magazine or shrieking a trailer before a TV show, "Find out how you can PREVENT cancer!"
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Outfield excellent post........I couldn't agree more.........
shokk
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Belinda: You post is right on...I also amazes me that people take multiple meds prescribed to them by doctors who are just trying to mask a symptom, not treat the individual and make them healthy. That is part of the problem...no attempt to get to the root of what is causing a health issue, just plug the dyke and move on to the next patient.
Right on the heels of my post about sugar being our enemy, we have the Sixty Minutes episode saying pretty much the same thing. Now that mainstream media has everyone's attention, perhaps something will get done to remove this addicitive drug from our food supply. It is in everything packaged, canned or otherwise, unless you eating a whole food diet.
BTW...I'm not against chemo and rads...it just was an overkill for my early stage, and I happen to be taking tamoxifen because I thought it had benefits to prevent recurrence down the road. This decision was made after careful research on my part and considering my age and type of bc. Everyone must be their own advocate.
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Momine: The "ph thing" is about keeping the body in an alkalline state so that cancer has less opportunity to survive. Cancer perfers an acidic environment. Sticking to a whole foods diet rich with leafy greens and other veggies, and staying away from high carbs and sweet foods, sodas, etc, can help you accomplish this. There are strips available at health food stores that can assist you in testing to see what your ph levels are. Ideal is 7.5 +.
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Outfield, thank you for that post. Very informative.
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Rational, well-reasoned post, Outfield. Thank you for sharing.
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Maud, I take that the moderaters have refused to delete your profile.....hahahahahaha!
This is the funniest bioch-fest I have ever seen. Shame on many of you.
Drink some liquor and go to bed! hahahahaha!
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cycle_babe: You could also just ignore the poster and move on. A friend posted this statement on facebook the other day and I thought it was great..."You don't have to attend every fight you're invited to".
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Outfield,
Your answer was the most rational and understandable answer. Thank you so much for the amount of work you put into it. I much appreciate it. I guess I won't look for any dietary data to jump out, we just make educated guesses that cannot be easily supported by dietary data.
I did not expect my opening question to cause such a ruckus.
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Just a note for Diane Essa. I posted information about sugar metabolism that can be verified by any college level biology or introduction to biochemistry textbook. It did not need a reference as it was as basic to a biochemist as saying we breath oxygen. And it is still true.
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I am going to make one more generic comment about "this cures cancer stuff". Remember the story of the boy who called wolf? I fear that each time we scream that a new food cures cancer, we lose a bit of our legitimacy.
When I first came to BCO, the big thing was cooking maple (it had to be maple) syrup and baking soda in certain proportions to cure cancer. That has kind of died, but sparked tempers. Then there was the news that the acai berry was the ultimate cancer fighter. That started some real fights on the board, but then kind of passed away.
What I am saying is that grand pronouncements that a certain food stops cancer can hurt us all by destroying our legitimacy.
We are making baby foodsteps in this area of dietary stuff, far to soon to claim a cure.
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Kaara, thanks for the PH explanation. Do you know what this recommendation is based on? I am not trying to be a pill, but there is so much erroneous info floating around, that I like to have some way of checking back a little.
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Momine: I'm not sure I understand your question, so before I try and answer, could you clarify a bit more...thanks.
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Outfield, great post!
And it's nice to see that this thread is finally on track with an interesting and thought-provoking discussion about the subject topic.
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Glad you got your commas working, Luan.
....now I remember where I last read of someone asking others what they were doing on Alt. forums....
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Kaara, what I mean is how we know that body ph is meaningful, and how we know that it is meaningful in conncection to cancer.
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Beesie, I second what you said about the thread being back on track. The author of this thread presented a very interesting topic and it really saddened me to see some of the girls being argumentive. I apologize for my post of yesterday, it was not appropriate. I was angry at some of the posts and was having a bad day. With that said, I believe that if we treat our bodies well, follow doctors orders and use common sense, most of us can beat the beast.
This is an interesting topic. Personally, I feel that keeping the bodies PH in check is one of the most important things we can do. I had a dear friend who passed away recently at 92 years old. This guy fought off many cancers using this method and beat the beast until his last breath - he died of heart failure. He would also fast for 72 hours, twice a year to rid hid body of toxiins. He was in the process of writing a book but it was never finished. But the info from his book was very convincing and the main focus WAS keeping our body's PH balanced. I will be researching this now since I am a "kept" woman and do not have to work
I am sorry if I offended anyone, it was a "heat of the moment" post.
Cheers!
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Kaara - love the anecdote, you don't have to attend every fight you are invited to.....and Gracie, I hear you......
........... anyway.........
Momine - it is a vicious circle, one I have found more into on just tonight when I picked up a book from the lending library at my acupuncturist - Chinese medicine clinic. It was about the body temperature, which I will post in the alt and natu forums. But the sugar, like Kaara explained, causes the low pH or a good pH to drop, just like coffee and such.
Outfield wrote: "But at the end of the day, what's really important is not the LDL level, but whether the person developed a disease or died. The LDL level is "surrogate endpoint." " So agree, and then how does it pertain to the individual's situation, as we are each different. Well-outlined post, provoking thoughts shared and left me thinking for awhile before bed last night. i realized that, like you, I have made many serious chances just to keep adding that 1% to my percentage for survival, they all add up. I admit that I am using myself as the human one person trial for waht will work, though unproven. Foods, especially. Supplements are a different matter, but they too could increase the chances by a percentage, each and every one of them. I love a long post taht makes me think and I feel like I am sitting there with a cuppa, conversing. Thank you.
MY FOOD THOUGHT FOR THE DAY - like it or not, I must give up my ice cream. Perhaps I can make some from raw organic milk, or ice milk with sugar free preserves. But I know without a doubt that I am scaring myself by keeping it on the list. Am going to have to join the 'getting off sugar' thread. Have known this for a very long long time.
SECOND FOOD THOUGHT FOR TODAY - Mayo clinic trials with cancer patients 'cured' cancer by using raw organic milk. I will not debate 'what is cure?', but they were quite pleased with the trials. So I have bought into a raw organic dairy herd. I have keifer, milk and cheeses, hormone-free. If the masses grow (multifocal now and probably was before but not caught) then I will stop, checking daily. But if this is good for me for many reasons that it could be, I will continue. This will be coupled with macrobiotics, which I have been on for the most part except my ice cream, and Chinese nutrition of heat and cold for healing (getting the med exam and consult and first acupuncture and lymph massage tomorrow).
Will it cure my cancer? Just want an excellent quality of life and to live longer than expected, whatever I am given, but I know I need to do my best.
Enjoyed the converse, will bring back whatever I find out as I search.
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Momine: To further try and answer your question on maintaining a good ph balance in our system, there has been much written about it. "The PH Miracle" by Robert O. Young PhD is one book that I could refer you to. The theory is that disease thrives in an acidic environment. Raise your ph level and lower your acidic level and you have a good chance of remaining healthy and fighting off disease.
Eating a healthy diet of high alkaline foods such as leafy greens, vegetables, fruits and small amounts of lean protein, and avoiding all foods that are acidic such as sugar, milk and cheese, white potatoes and white flour products is the best way to get to an alkaline state in the body.
I have been on this diet for six months, and I look better, feel better, and have lost 15 lbs. My ph level is at the 7.5 mark. Will it prevent a recurrence of my cancer? I can't know for certain, but I think anything that we do to fortify our bodies and put our immune system in a better position to fight disease can't be bad, so I'm willing to give it a go.
It requires giving up some foods that I enjoy, but they aren't necessary for my survival and avoiding a return of bc is.
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Motheroffoursons - I don't want to argue. I am hoping we will get through this as sincerely as possible, but I have to say what I think one more time, only more clearly.
First, I was mistaken to say you called the sugar information a bogus myth, what you did say was "sugar receives a bad rap".
I realize you think I am debating the points in the post you made over there, but I do not, and I do not ask your proof for the points, I mispoke in saying there was no research or evidence presented, it is clear the points are true. For one, if I need to know answers, if my mind opens to questions, I will search them out on my own, leaving the discussion open and forthcoming.
But I was disagreeing..... saying that the Stage IV person should not have been told that sugar receives a bad rap.
I believe with all my heart that she needed told that she was best off to not eat the refined sugar and anything close to it, lower her carbs, etc. and encouraged to delve into what that meant. She was oblivious to all of this information.
The response was highly outspoken..... like the alkaline water and pH response.... and the Bruzynski Skeptic Alert post..... and the cancer is not a virus comment.
I am not going to prove these are true to my thinking, but what I have read and seen and experienced, they are in MY belief system. I am strong in my beliefs.
Others are perhaps seeking, questioning, and I think that you are a leaader-type and your strong opinions and highly irresponsible discouragement of what they are searching into is inappropriate.
Instead of flicking the possibilities off to the side for a fellow bc person who is opening their mind, couldn't you just allow their minds and intution and their spiritual journey to take them where they land?
I am glad this discussion has turned to something we can all use.
I am glad you brought up the post, I just don't like all the fighting. We can say what we need without hurting or creating enemies of one-another.
For me, even the disagreements are thought-provoking and immensely revealing of what each of us are going through right now, if only we would read between the lines and feel the hearts.
What I have just said is where I am..... and I wish that if we were at a table somewhere, you would give a response to where I am and I could accept where you are and we could nod and smile and go one from here. Please?
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On the pH question, the University of Arizona has been given $2million to research the effect of baking soda to alter the pH of tumours. There's a thread about it in the Alternative Treatment section.
Grant to Fuel Baking Soda Cancer Therapy Research
By Steve Delgado, College of Engineering, March 30, 2012By measuring the acid content of the tumor, doctors can monitor the effectiveness of personalized treatments such as baking soda on both tumors and healthy tissue, and even predict the effectiveness of chemotherapies before the patient starts the medication.
Drinking baking soda has been proven to reduce or eliminate the spread of breast cancer to the lungs, brain and bone, but too much baking soda can also damage normal organs
Bicarbonate Increases Tumor pH and Inhibits Spontaneous Metastases Pubmed 2010
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Thanks for all the PH info, but the guy with the book is not credible. He doesn't even have a real Ph.D., but the U Arizona study is certainly interesting.
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From Brigham and Women's Hospital in Boston, regarding pH levels:
Can You Make Your pH More Alkaline?
Your body has a complex system of checks and balances to keep its pH in a normal and healthy range:
7.35 to 7.45. When your pH shifts outside this range and becomes too acidic or too alkaline, your body
automatically corrects itself to bring things back to normal by:Increasing or decreasing respiration - When you breathe more rapidly, you blow out more
carbon dioxide. This raises your pH so it becomes more alkaline and less acidic.
Conversely, slowing down your breathing causes you to release less carbon dioxide,
which lowers your pH making it less alkaline."Mopping up" excess hydrogen ions - Neutralizing substances in the blood such as
bicarbonate and hemoglobin, mop up excess hydrogen ions and prevent pH from
becoming too acidic.Eliminating the excess - Your kidneys excrete excess acidic substances into urine
to prevent pH from becoming too low. Conversely, if your pH starts to become too
high or alkaline, the body uses similar tools in reverse to bring down the pH.The bottom line: The body fights hard to keep your pH balanced. It's nearly impossible to achieve
and maintain a high-alkaline pH for a prolonged period of time.Back to topCan an Alkaline pH "Kill" Cancer Cells?First of all, there are no human studies supporting alkaline diets for the prevention or treatment
of cancer. Test-tube studies, however, have shown that some cancer cells grow faster in an
acidic solution. They'vealso shown that some chemotherapy drugs become more effective if
the area around a tumor cell is altered to be more alkaline. However, we can't assume that
what happens in a test-tube also happensin the human body. In fact, the opposite effect could
occur and have dangerous consequences.Can Diet Change the pH Balance of the Body?The body's pH levels may change slightly as a result of eating some foods, but will remain in the tightly
held range of 7.35 - 7.45. For instance, some fruits and vegetables as well as dairy products may raise
the pH of your urine, whereas meat products and cranberries may lower the pH of your urine. However,
even if you eat large quantities of these foods, your blood pH will barely change and only for a short time.Are Urine and Saliva pH Test Strips a Good Way to measure the Body's pH?The only way to directly measure the body's pH is by testing your blood. Testing your urine only tells the
pH of your urine. Urine is naturally more acidic and has a lower pH (~6.0). Similarly, saliva test strips only
measure the pH of your saliva, not the pH of your blood.Back to topCan an Alkaline Diet Be Harmful?Alkaline diets promote the exclusion of many foods. Excluding an entire family of foods can result in some
potential anti-cancer benefits. A list of foods often restricted on an alkaline diet is listed below, along with
the reasons why these foods shouldn't be eliminated.Food GroupBenefits of the Food GroupFats and OilsProvide essential fatty acids (EFAs). EFAs are needed to make healthy cells, maintain immunity and combat inflammation.DairyAn excellent source of protein and vitamins, specifically vitamin D and calcium. Adequate vitamin D intake has been linked to increased survival from cancer.
Beans and LegumesRich in phytonutrients, substances also found in colorful fruits, vegetables which help lower cancer risk and boost the immune system. Beans and legumes are rich in fiber, which is good for gastrointestinal health and may help prevent colon cancer. Also a good source of vegetarian protein. Protein needs are higher in cancer patients, especially those receiving chemotherapy.
FruitsContain phytonutrients, vitamins and fiber.
Do Dietitians and Other Health Professionals Recommend Alkaline Diets?No. Studies of alkaline diet are limited to animal and test tube trials. While research is currently in progress regarding the correlation between alkaline diets and bone health, there are unfortunately no major human studies in regards to alkaline diets and cancer at this time
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Linda, thanks, that was very informative and I love the Rebecca West quote.
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Yep I agree Susan,I try to eat healthy 75% of the time but if I have wine and pizza and the wine makes me feel better than the TyCo#3 then I am gonna think about it but I know alchohol slows healing so I dont drink it everyday. I also know it helps yeast overgrow and apparently so does Arimi since I got mouth sores from that stupid AI. I can take just about all the side effects but this dry and painful mouth 24/7 is not working for me. I take the concentrate pills of mushrooms and the seaweed and believe with prayer that this saved me from the cancer getting into the lymphnodes,got the info from Waking the Warrior Goddess by Dr Christine Horner. I try not to do the chips or fried foods but end up getting some a few times a mth anyway. I was doing cardio theater at the gym and they come on talking about the new sandwich at Wendys so I left and went to Wendys...seriously I am so easily influenced by those stupid commercials!! Going to fiance to eat beans from the crockpot today,he is a heart patient and very strict diet he stays on,no salt at all!! Its not too tasty. I heard the lime juice can be used in place to give it a taste,that acid should feel good on my mouth sores..NOT!! Ok maybe the beans and some nice french bread fresh baked from the bakery,bread bad,beans good. Should I switch to cornbread or wheat?
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Momine: Credibile or not, believe what you want, apparently he is on to something, because studies are now being done on the relationship between ph balance in the body and preventing disease. To those who must have only evidence based proof to believe, mainstream medicine will soon be promoting this same approach; but in the meantime, I am going to continue with the program because, as I said, it does no harm, and I can actually see and feel the benefit to my body. That is proof enough for me.
It bears repeating that people will allow their bodies to be assaulted with all kind of pharmaceutical drugs and tx to prevent disease, but are skeptical of a healthy diet that has promise in the prevention of same. Tell me, what have we got to lose in trying this approach, except maybe a few heavy carbs and desserts.
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Kaara, I meant no offense, simply an observation. If it works for you, then you are right to continue.
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