No treatments for me.
Comments
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Cin, thanks for your comments. If I had done things "my way" I might have progressed sooner, but then again, maybe not. As it was, I progressed DESPITE what was termed "clinical cure" the month after chemo, but 6 months later had recurrence. I was persuaded by the argument that my cancer was "curable." There is NO SUCH THING! That is just a lie. It may not come back for many decades, and you may die of something else in the meantime, but I don't believe every single cancer cell can be eradicated by current treatment options. I wish I had someone who had supported me in those early days 2 years ago. Please feel free to PM me if you want.
Your family means well. They love you, and want to keep you around for as long as possible (we can be very selfish as family members, not thinking about the pain or suffering of the one we want to keep around). I also looked at submitting to treatment as a way to show that I loved my family, too, thinking perhaps I was being selfish in not wanting to travel this path. In retrospect, my family knows how much I have suffered, and understand why I now refuse anything else that will not contribute to my quality of life. But it took them a while.
Some days I do NOT appreciate waking up. Some days I do NOT enjoy life, and those are the days that I become very angry and resentful. And mostly, I really DON'T want to live a long time. I have a very short "bucket list" as I have had a pretty full life up to this point, have done way more than I ever dreamed, and am actually grateful for that, and am quite content with dying today or tomorrow or a decade from now.
I am working VERY hard at living my life with mindfulness based meditation, researching process theology, believing that if there is a God, it is a God of Love, and that my actions every day should be loving and in harmony with that God of Love rather than viewing my life as a sentence to be served. I find some help in attending a Bible study group each week. I find a lot of help in forgiving myself and others, trying to practice a loving life in the present moment as I cannot change the past and don't know what the future brings. I am enjoying some art and music, enjoy daily chores such as laundry (but NOT the dishes - LOL!). It's not all bad, even though I may sound that way on my whinier days.
And if you change your mind and "go for the cure" - I will fully support you in that, every step of the way. It really DOES come down to what is right for you - pay attention to your own heart. And then be able to be kind to yourself, and to forgive yourself if needed, regardless of the outcomes of your choice.
Forgiving MYSELF has been the most difficult of all this, and I only was able to do this less than a month ago, so I am still having a few days of anger, but am making great progress overall toward accepting the present moment in lovingkindness toward myself and others.
With much lovingkindness to you and your family.0 -
Linda,
Today I have an appt with my pain doc to ask a few questions about my pain management and my mother has offered to take me so I'm curious to see what she says afterwords. I've had a few issues for the past few days that are really bothering me because I had been feeling ok and then without any warning I started to feel like I'm doing down hill again. It's never easy to do what I think is best for me without considering how other people in my life will respond to it. But no matter what happens, I'm sticking to my guns. I know that they mean well but if they could live in my body for just a day I think they would be more supportive of my decisions. Like you I'm not afraid to die and some days I want it to come faster...I would NEVER do anything to make that happen but I'm not afraid of it either. I don't know if that's normal, and I'm by no means depressed. I just think that after all the crap that I've dealt with over the years to keep myself healthy that I don't deserve to have prolonged suffering. There are so many women on here that would do just about anything in search of being around for as much time as they can get and I absolutely support their decisions, I'm just not of that mind. If I thought for one minute that there was a way that I could live for many more years without extreme suffering I might have considered giving it a shot, but in my case I was told from the get go that if I even lived through the chemo that I would at best only have a very limited time before that cancer took over my body anyway. I do still try to enjoy what life I have left, although physically I'm not able to be as active as I used to be. I just found out that my DS who's 22 is going to be a father in February and I want so bad to be around to spend some time with my first grandchild so this is my motivation to keep moving as much as I can. I hope you are having a wonderful day and continuing to make good memories, after all that's what's important.
All my love to you, cin
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Cin,
My mum chose your route as well. She was first diagnosed in 1995 and had a lumpectomy with no further treatment. Then again in 2003, a radical mastectomy on the right side for a spot that was noticed on her chest wall. Again, just surgery and refused any other treatment. In 2011 she was diagnosed at Stage IV with mets everywhere. Once more, she was just as determined to let nature take its course. All she would let us do was medicate her pain - she did have 2 radiation treatments but that was it. And we did do that - we kept her out of pain with a great hospice team.
I will always respect her for the route she took. Having seen the quality of life she had for her 14 year battle (which was great up until the last couple of months), I would most probably follow her lead and do the same thing myself if I am dealt the same cards. She was lucid and present right up until the end and she left with her dignity intact. My mum was a militant smoker, always defending her own right to smoke and...she did so up until the last two weeks of her life. That's just the kind of gal she was and I totally admired her for sticking to her guns. It was completely her choice to pick her own path as it is yours. For what it's worth from a lowly caregiver
, I totally support your choice and I wish you much peace and pain freedom. Hospice people are angels on earth and they are a vital part of the team. Hugs to you,
Margi
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Cin, hoping you got some answers and support that you needed today from your doc and your mother. Sending you gentle hugs and lovingkindness.
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Hi Cindy rose,
I was a caregiver to my sister and it was a journey of love every step of the way, and hospice is so amazing and my sisters death and leaving her body was difficult but amazing too, it was
with the holy spirit every breath, I could feel him so strong when my sis was leaving her body and I knew she went somewhere really beautiful because she asked me to come with her so I know it was beautiful and safe on her journey to her new place. Hospice always says that the patient is in the drivers seat you do what you want, and it's all good.
Love Amy Lynn0 -
I am right there with you, Cindy Rose. It IS our bodies and we should not be pushed into treatment if we choose not to do it. Although I have gone along with treatment so far I know for sure the day is coming when I am DONE. Chemo, rads etc are definitely poisons and many of us end up dying from them rather than the cancer. Anyway, I just feel that everyone has the right to make their own decisions about this and their wishes should be honored.
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I think that people are having such a hard time with me refusing any treatment, other than surgery to remove the first four tumors, is because there were things that the onco wanted me to try, but because I've already had so much damage from having chemo before I honestly believe that chemo would kill me faster than the cancer will. I'm really having a hard time with the fact that I have a second kind of major cancer and I just don't have it in me to fight it off again. I know that sounds bad but I can't wrap my head around poisoning myself...again. My lungs are so shot that they're half scar tissue and that's progressing too, not to mention the heart damage which isn't as bad as the lungs, but bad enough that chemo would be very hard on me. I really do hope that everyone who wants to do all the things that I won't, will work for all of them and give them many many more years to enjoy life. I think for me that I'm so at peace with my decisions because I know that no matter what I do it won't ever go away. I'll always have to deal with cancer and it's already just too hard for me to do anything on my own. I don't remember if I said this here yet but the PET scan I just had did show more tumor growth and I'm going for bone scan in a week or so to see what's going on with my ribs. My insurance company and doctors want to see the progression, although I didn't want to know where anything was growing. I was right about not wanting to know where any tumors were because I thought I would feel more pain there...and now I do. I hate this whole process. I was perfectly happy no to know. Ignorance is bliiss...for me anyway.
Hope everyone is doing well today, All my love to everyone,
cin
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"I know that sounds bad...."
Cin, no it doesn't. A person can only take so much. I have a feeling the docs are required to give you results....but could they maybe give those results to another family member instead so you just don't have to hear it anymore?
I hope that your team can address your increase in pain. Thinking of you.
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Cin,
You also have to right to request no further testing. My mom did that. She didn't want to know either. She just wanted to be done with the poking and the prodding. Actually, truth be told, I'm the one that stopped the testing on her behalf. Toughest decision I ever made but she thanked me for it. I sometimes wish I could have known the progression but that knowledge certainly wouldn't have stopped the train.
edited to add: Mum reacted badly to morphine drugs for her pain, so we found our pain relief miracle in fentanyl. At first, by liquid in syringes that she could take at home but she progressed to the skin patches. We had to play with the doses but fentanyl, for the most part, was a saviour for her pain.
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I know why they are insisting that I have tests and it's because to qualify for hospice your primary physician has to say that they think you'll only live for about six months. My doc did say that in the paperwork for hospice but hospice wanted proof. I guess they don't want to accidentally do any harm in trying to help...I get that. All I knew was that my bc would come back after I had my surgery, but I didn't know where or how long it would take, so when my tumor markers went up and I was having problems breathing and in a ton of pain I was told by many docs at the hospital that I had mets that showed on the scans...but that turned out to be a lung disease that is also really bad. I wasn't getting the truth although the docs at the time thought they were right. Now I know I have more bc growing because it showed on the PET scan and they are checking the bones for any mets. I guess some oncos think differently when it comes to actually saying that your terminally ill. Because I'm not treating at all that would automatically make me terminal because tumors don't go away on their own (although that would be nice) so for me it's come down to how much time I have left, and now that they do know I have new growth I'm back to being told that it just a matter of time. Most days I have good pain control but some days it's really so bad that I can't do anything. I do hope that I have at least a year left but who knows. I've now gone from being told that I was going to die soon, to being told that I could have many more years tumor free, to now back to having a fast growing tumor that I refuse to have removed so that brings me back to not knowing how much time I have left at all. It's been such a crazy roller coaster of emotions. I had excepted that I was near the end then told that was wrong then told they don't know. That doesn't help me at all with hospice. I'm back to seeing my pain doc who I love to death (no pun intended) and I'm waiting for a while before I go back into hospice because I don't think I'm close enough just yet. I'm still very much at peace with my decision not to treat this at all anymore but not knowing how this is going to go in the future drives me absolutely crazy. I'm doing better this morning because one of the wonderful women on BCO sent me the most beautiful bunch of sun flowers yesterday. It really picked up my mood and helped me take my mind off the pain I was in. Sometimes just knowing that there are other people who understand makes all the difference.
All my love to all of you,
cin
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Cin, thinking of you today, hoping you are comfortable. You are so articulate in your comments here, very reasonable and realistic - thank you for saying what some of us are thinking.
Peace and gentle hugs.
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Linda,
Thank you, I worry sometimes that I say too much. I don't want to end up hurting anyone else by something I say here.
cin
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Cin, I think the opposite is true. I think your words are very profound and empowering others to live their lives the way they want to. You have so much courage and that's always contagious.
Keep up the great work!
Margi
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We are thinking about you, Cindy!Hang in there, regardless of what you choose!0
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Cin, got the call from BS yesterday that the little nodule was indeed cancer recurrence. She wants me to come in right away so they can schedule more surgery - like there is anything left to take out that I would let her take. MO called me today, wants to see me, wants me to go back on tamoxifen, consider other drugs as well. I am considering getting a second opinion, just to see if there is anything else I would consider as the options presented by my BS and MO are not acceptable right now, but don't want to be completely close-minded about this. MO said I could get 12-18 months progression-free survival - I told her I didn't want to survive that long if my quality of life gets any worse than it is now. I don't really want to do more medical appointments or travel a long distance for second opinion, am not sure it would be worth it other than using precious time and energy that I would rather spend enjoying life for the moment. My inner voice has told me since the beginning this was not a "curable" disease for me, despite the MO and BS telling me that it was. I just am not sure where to draw the line at further testing and appointments. Thanks for any comments you may have.
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Linda,
I think that if after you consider all of your options (and consequences) you come to a decision about your treatment or lack there of, and take some time to make sure that you're sure you know what you want... then it will be the right choice for you. I don't think there's a more difficult decision in anyone's lifetime. We can't know what the future will bring, and I wish I could tell you for sure what would keep you happy and healthy and how you could just bypass any bad side-effects but all we can do is soak up all the info that we can get and make the best educated guess. Just make sure that you are at peace with whatever you decide because there aren't any do-overs. I personally was tired of feeling like a lab-rat so I knew what I wanted to do pretty quickly, but take your time and be sure. Please put a lot of thought into whatever you decide. I'll be thinking of you until I hear that you've made up your mind.
All my love to you my friend,
cin
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Cin, I have been re-reading all the posts in this thread. Thank you so very very much for starting this discussion. I have appointments with PCP, MO, and BS next week. It seems like my fatigue is worse this week, but I just had a 4-day trip to New Orleans and was up and active more hours of the day than usual, so am attributing part of it to the trip. I am hoping to make 2 more long trips this fall, one is a 10-hour drive, one is a 25-hour drive. In my "normal" state, I could easily do the 25-hour trip as a solo road trip in 2 days, but am thinking it will be 3 days, with DH in the car. I do love DH, but I so miss that quiet time in the car by myself. But it is also nice to spend time with him away from work and the daily chores. I have a lot to think about for the next week or so. Will let you know if/when things change here.
I hope you are having a comfortable day, and hope you are surrounded by loving family and friends.
Love to you,
Linda0 -
Linda,
I've been pushing myself to go outside and do a little bit of yard work everyday that it isn't raining anyway. It feels so good to do the smallest things, it's makes me feel almost normal again. My pain hasn't been too unbearable lately although I did just wake up at one in the morning because I was having pain in my stump. I took two pain pills and I'm drinking my coffee early in the hopes that the combination will make the pain go away. My Rick loves to go on car trips too and we used to pack up and go without any notice...but now I'm lucky if I can get the the grocery store and back. I'm always so damn tired too. Let us know how the appts go with all of your Drs. You know that we'll all be here for you no matter what you decode to do, and I pray that it's all good news for you.I just wish all of our families were able to be as supportive to us as we all are to each other. I'll be sending up a prayer
that you will have all the answers you need and the strength to make it through whatever you decide on. I'll be thinking of you today my friend. I know this isn't any easy time for you.All my love,cin
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Hi Cindy - I was here a month ago. You mentioned in your comment back to me, your concern over the pain which is a concern of mine. You have gone with your experience and relieved me of my fears too. Thank you for sharing. I question this about life. How we are cruising along, then cancer, and we fight like hell to stay alive but the fight is killing us (some of us, not all). Then we suffer through agonizing death which is possibly caused by fighting so hard to stay alive? That is a question, not a summary. And some are left to suffer to the end when we would give mercy to our pets? I don't understand. Fortunately, more and more there are doctors and palliative care for us.
My mom was a hospice patient right in the hospital, she had cancer but was such an extreme case of intensive care that hospice could not even take her at the hospice center, she needed a full team 24/7. Four months of this. She had not chosen chemo or radiation, none of my family has for cancer. But I am the only one who has learned about alternatives. They managed her pain, her breathing, minimized the throat tumor somewhat and finally she went into coma. I was terrified for her, that she would die an agonizing death from pain or suffocation. But the team told me she would go into a coma and she did. How do they know? Did they help her, I wonder, without my father's permission - he was hanging on so much he had everything done for her by the dr so she would stay.
When and if the time is in my face, I want control over my death.
I fully appreciate you sharing. Though I am not stage IV, I did begin a thread called here The Spiritual Journey Into Breast Cancer where it is all right to say death even at stage 0, talk about the fears and pain and growth from the new perspective breast cancer offers. I talk mostly to myself I suppose, but it is a journal for everyone, to just say it, whatever it is. And here, you are saying it, and I am relieved too that you are being given the respect your deserve for your decisions. I find myself hiding my truth because I am not wanting to face the (contempt, judgement, impatience, concerns, anger, whatever that may come) from my bco sisters when I am not in the alt forums. There I talk about the alt choices I am making but not even death I suppose that by my choosing alts it would be expected that I 'must' live, never die hahah, oh well, working on that *_* so is good to find places where it is out front about not choosing conventional tx and facing the end with a gentle manner as well. Thank you.
Well, glad I got back to see you and everyone. I must begin work now, but has been a good morning on bco.
I will be thinking of you. I hope nothing I say has been alarming.
Wanted to add, about the sister passing that was mentioned by another. When my mom passed, it was the same. So beautiful at the end, like she was flying, breathing with the music.
Now let's all go outside and garden or swing on the glider.
LOVEEssa
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Cin, I love your tag line - drive it like you stole it - I had an opportunity to drive on the Charlotte NC racetrack about 10 years ago, such fun! I am thinking about driving as fast as I can get my car to go on one of those long straight stretches of highway on our trip out west. Normally I drive legal speeds but am not overly concerned about a ticket at this stage! So just play the music in the background (can't remember exactly right now -something about the little old lady from Pasadena with a souped up super stock car!) and watch me go!
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Essa,
I totally understand what you mean about people not wanting to talk about death or all of the thoughts that come with a bc diagnosis. I never was one to keep quiet about anything so I think for me it was bound to come up. I feel like I'm supposed to talk about what I want and make sure that I'm being treated in the way that I think is best for me, although I haven't always known exactly what I wanted. After some very long sleepless nights I realized that I couldn't change what was happening to me but I could have some control over what time I have left and that helped me find peace. I can't explain how, but I just know in my heart that I'm doing the right thing now by just letting nature take its course and sharing it with everyone that I can. I've had people tell me that I was helping them by being open about refusing treatment and to be honest I hadn't thought about helping others when I started talking about it but it makes me feel very good to know that I'm able to help anyone in any way. As far as the question about the coma, I think that it is part of the process of the body shutting down that brings on a coma. I've been told that by my hospice team as well as reading it in a few different places and I'm pretty sure that they wouldn't induce a coma in a person who didn't specifically ask to be put into one. I put everything I want in writing already so there won't be any misunderstandings and I suggest that everyone do the same whether they're sick or not. Ya never know.
Linda,
I was a recovery agent for years before I was diagnosed with this most recent cancer so I literally did steal cars for a living and had to make a quick get away more than a few times. Best rush I think I've ever had. I miss it very much. I really do believe that everyone should drive it like they stole it...it's just so damn fun!!
cin
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Cindy - you were a repo "man"??? Too cool! That takes a lot of courage.
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Cindy your posts have helped me already. I feel I really need to hear discussion about death and how people come to terms with that. It may happen sooner than I want, or it may not be for a long time, but it's on my mind and it's far more terrifying to not talk about it. Bless you for speaking out.
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sending you some purple bubbles cindy..
i love your posts.... full of life
thank you
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"Repo man" - wow!!! What an exciting profession! I love it!! I have always been a bit of an epinephrine junkie, and that just sounds like a mixture of fun, fear, excitement, with a little boredom in between.
Ann, I agree that talking about death and dying is much easier than NOT talking about it. It is a fact of life. When I say something about my own mortality, so many people say "yes, we are ALL going to die sometime, we just don't know when, we could be hit by a bus tomorrow.... blah, blah blah...", but the simple fact is that we are much more likely to die sooner rather than later, and of our disease, than the average person waiting to get hit by a bus.
My PCP told me this week that she has breast cancer patients at the same stage as I am, who have elected no further treatment, who have not progressed in over 2 years, and their quality of life is pretty good, certainly better than if they were undergoing lots of treatment. Don't get me wrong, treating this like a chronic disease with long-term chemo is the right choice for many women, but not for some of us. It's just nice to have a group who supports THIS choice, and all that goes with it. Now I have to see the BS and MO on Friday to see what they recommend for most patients in my situation, and how we can work together to support MY CHOICE rather than theirs.
I have a lot of traveling to do, and the last 2 years this team has cheated me out of 4 major trips, and I am no longer able to do my solo road trips at all, and they are not going to cheat me out of anything else! I have at lest 4 more trips to do between October and March, and have no time to dilly-dally with too many medical appointments! (OK, now realistically, I am really TRYING to be open-minded about what they will say on Friday, but feel that stubborn dig-your-heels-in attitude surfacing!).
Celine, glad to welcome you!
Cindy, again, thanks for starting this thread. Have a good day with many moments of grace and beauty.
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Linda, it's amazing how many people make that same statement. Two of the people closest to me had that immediate reaction, telling me my situation is "really the same as everyone's". It took me some time to realize how much it angered me. Yes, philosophically it's true, we're all going to die someday. But it's also true that before BC I rarely gave my future death any thought, and now the fear of it is there in my mind almost continually, and this seems to be so very common with us, particularly in the first few years. It's just an awful mimimization to say our situation is the same as everyone's.
I'm wishing you a productive meeting with your medical team. I hope they can support your decisions, and if not that you'll be strong enough to pursue the right options for you without their full support. Hugs to you.
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I am trying to be open-minded, have been offered what the BS considers "the last real opportunity for cure" ... she wants to do wide excision, take more skin, see if skin lymphatics are involved. If they are, it's likely more recurrence in the future. And more pressure for rads. And other drugs. If not, I will have gone through another procedure, more pain & recovery time when I have fun things on the calendar. She cannot guarantee that the excision will improve the clinical outcome. I am just now getting a little sensation back in the front of my axilla/chest wall. The punch biopsy she did just about drove me crazy with exacerbation of pain and itching that I could not relieve by scratching because the skin is actually numb along the incision. It would be another 6 weeks of not lifting anything heavy, not sure about more nerve damage. I did call to get a second opinion, but trying to get medical records collected and sent is just another mind-numbing barrier. How much more am I willing to put into this?
I met with my counselor and realized that every step that I have taken, every treatment that I have agreed to, every test that I have agreed to - all has been done to satisfy my family and doctors. They want so much for me. They do not live in my skin and my body and my brain every day, 24 hours a day. Everything in my heart and mind says "STOP!!! and stop NOW!!!". I don't even really want to go for second opinion - I am just tired. It is all the "little" aggravations daily, every day, all day - do any of you think it is really worth going for a second opinion at this stage, when I suspect that the opinion really won't affect my decision at this point? The only thing it might do is to provide support for me in "watching and waiting", but I know what all the studies suggest, I just don't know if this 2nd BS would interpret it the same way. So I am tired, discouraged, have anxiety any time I have to interact with the health care providers & system, but when I get away from it, have a week or 2 off from appointments, I can be relatively happy and peaceful. Is it worth the aggravation of going for a 2nd opinion????
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Linda,
It sounds like you've already made up your mind on what you want and are looking for someone to tell you that it's the right thing to do. Whatever we decide for ourselves IMHO is the right thing to do...but I can't stress enough that you have to be at peace with what direction you are going in or you may have regrets later on that can't be undone. It sucks that we simply never know what's going to happen and weather or not chemo will even work for us. For me, because it's not my first cancer, I always knew in my heart that I would never go through it again but I don't know if that would have been different had I never had chemo before. when I first was diagnosed with bc I did consider doing everything I could to get more time but as surgeries happened and different MDs and Oncos gave me their opinions, I came back to reality and realized that I was only doing it for my family and I personally had no interest at all in being a 'lab rat' anymore. I've had enough of hospitals to literally last me the rest of my life! And yes I was a "repo man". My husband and I were both Owner/Opps and we had just merged with another company when I started getting too sick to work anymore. The other "repo men" always loved it when I wore short skirts and let my hair down...I don't know why they thought it was cute but I did get a lot more tips when I looked nice. To be honest, I think that I caught a lot of people off guard because I would just go to their door and demand (nicely) the keys, then drive it into the storage lot. It must have had something to do with the fact that I have one leg and walk on crutches so people don't see me as a threat. I used to get contracts from other owners who had cars that they hadn't been able to get for years and in our first week as owners, we brought in over two hundred and fifty thousand dollars worth of vehicles that had been written off. It was what I was meant to do and I love that I was able to do it for a few years, even if I can't do it anymore. My husband still wants to do it again, but I know that I'm not going to get any better than I am now. I still have good days and bad days and I hope I have another year or two left. I don't think I would even have that if I was having treatments though. I wish I could give everyone peace with their situation...whatever it is.
cin
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Cindy-Rose,
Great to hear from you. You say, "Whatever we decide for ourselves IMHO is the right thing to do"
I could not agree more. If it's the right thing for YOU, then it's the right thing, period.
Too cool about your history as a repo "man"! You know, in certain situations, it is wonderful to be a woman because of what yhou can get away with. My first career (very, very different) involved interactions in a very man-domunated world. The people in question always thought that whatever one said to a woman didn't really matter. As a result, I got some amazing information that helped me perform extremely well at the career.
May the good days keep coming for you.
You've been so generous in sharing with us. I am curious: how do you take care of yourself physically these days? You're not on treatment to kill the cancer cells, but are you on pain medication, or simply getting good rest?
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Athena,
I make sure to keep a very strict schedule and have a bedtime routine that I start around dinner time, I take a sleeping pill with dinner, and I'm in bed with my book by 7:30, asleep by 8 or 9 and up with the sun. This way I know that I always get enough sleep and my pain is much easier to control. I do take long acting pain pills(MsContin) and short acting pain pills(Vicodin) as well as a multi vitamin and I drink only water other than when I have coffee every morning to get my energy up as much as I can. I don't have as much pain now that I'm not being poked and prodded anymore so I don't need as much pain meds as I did before. I don't think that they were ever able to control my pain after surgeries or procedures. All I remember was terrible pain and no relief. I don't watch my diet very much anymore, I do eat whatever I want to but I try not to eat after dinner. It's funny how just keeping a schedule helps me with how I'm feeling in general. Mostly I feel very tired and that's my biggest issue. I've actually started taking less pain meds on my own, a little less at a time, and that helps me to not get too much of a tolerance to anything. I don't want to need more later on and not get any relief, so I'm trying to be careful of those kind of things now while I'm not needing the pain meds as much. I also think that keeping drama out of my house and my life as much as possible also helps a lot. We try to keep the house very quiet and peaceful. I love a quiet house. I hope this answered your question...a little bit long winded, I know. sorry
cin
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