Jane McLelland protocol / COC protocol for STAGE IV members ONLY
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Frisky..one of the women I quoted that got worse on fenben...here is something she posted with links for reference:
Interesting. However when my liver exploded in mets (6w after initiation of FBZ protocol, first time disease here, after 3.5y almost stabile(NED)) I was also on Chloroquine which should inhibit autophagy...so not sure this always is 'enough'.
FBZ og MBZ increase IL-8 in liver https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/20848085/?fbclid=IwAR2xm1YWj6Z8X8U3tH_PAb4ZLg2CKzj2dBKJwxEocCABfWZWR5SGz4mgI0o
that can induce liver injury and liver mets:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4434624/?fbclid=IwAR28mCym9yuMCeuuoB2JtLrPhmxYvNhekZAIQU-oEArZzFLD8LSEv74MMEs0 -
Nicole thanks for posting those studies, so what is the COC doing now? Are they withdrawing the MBZ?
One useful piece of information lacking from the published studies is the quantity used during those studies...but it doesn't matter, we each have to decide for ourselves...
I do appreciate getting the warnings, so keep the info coming....pleeeassseee!
This cat has been enjoying too many holidays cookies and the diabetes is eating up whatever brain cells she has left...
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The COC is staying on their normal stuff...but I know they are now saying about the 3 forms of Mebedazole...A, B and C and that they only prescribe C. because C is the really most absorbable form..but I called the manufacturer of mine and they said they believe its only C that is prescribed anyway...so who knows. I just know now people definitely have to look into taking something with the Mebendazole to prevent spread / and deal with Autophagy...etc...
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Nicole,
In researching this, you may think about COX-2 inhibitors. That first article that you posted (and actually the 2d as well) both talk about the inflammatory response caused by drugs such as mebendazole. This is the cytokine stuff that I wrote about earlier. I think that Celebrex is a COX-2 inhibitor, if I'm not mistaken. Perhaps that is what you need to be taking as well?
I am literally pulling this out of nowhere, but the cytokine stuff just jumped out at me in both articles because of my recent acquaintance with immunotherapy drugs.
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I cannot take anti inflammatories they destroy my stomach. I may take Quercetin...
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I'm only trying to get some kind of understanding, so I'll ask my questions here.
I was diagnosed with bone metastases. I had neoadjuvant chemo to shrink the tumor in my breast which it shrunk quite a bit. Then I had a lumpectomy.
The breast surgeon wanted to do a sentinel node biopsy, or take the sentinel node out (it was almost 9 years ago so I forget some details). What I remember was saying, no there is no need to remove the sentinel node. None of my lymph nodes showed any signs of bc, so apparently the bc traveled through my blood stream.
My reasoning behind not allowing the sentinel node to be removed was I did not want my lymph system cut in to. I did not want it invaded. I thought, let's leave it in tact. Plus, isn't that kind of surgery, removing the sentinel node, done with earlier stage bc to see if or how far the cancer spread? Since scans showed I had mets, taking the sentinel node seemed invasive.
All this is to say, I believe is that one reason I've had some longevity with this disease is because my lymph node system was never hacked. Does that make sense?
This leads me to my other question. When operating on other forms of cancer, are lymph nodes cut in to? The conversation on this thread recently mentioned how bc is its own kind of beast apart from other kinds of cancer. Do the lymph nodes play a part in that?
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Divine, For what it's worth, as I don't think you believe in alternatives. Holist's practioners believe that lymph nodes (that have cancer) are doing their job. They are enclosing the cancer and stop it from spreading. I don't know. Just putting this out there.
What I am curious about is all the women from decades past. they had they breast removed, brutelly too with the muscles around the rib cage. But then they were done. No Chemo, No rads, no anti-estrogens for years. And from what I read the cancer mostly didn't come back. I do not understand this. My only reasoning is that chemo, and rads weaken our immune system so much that we don't have a fighting chance.
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EDIT DIVINE:....ok I re-read your post like 3 times..lol to try and figure out what it had to do with the Jane Protocol...I think its that you said you read on here that "it is it's own kind of breast apart from other kinds of cancer and do the lymph nodes play a part in that"?? I am wondering if you wrote that based on my statement that "what I am discovering is that BC is a BEAST of it's own...it can morph into other things and it's just in a class all by itself I mean IDC and Lobular just to name 2...totally different right...yet...wait...someone could be like me IDC with Lobular Features..." It still cancer ...cancer is cancer I just feel that BC has so many different way and things about it than other cancers. My statement has nothing to do with lymph nodes though only to do with using the protocol and how it works differently on everyone....Hope that answers your question
Hi Divine..I am confused lol what and why you are asking here about lymph nodes and biopsy...this is the Jane Mclelland protocol thread? I must be missing your question tell me what I am missing if you are asking something about the protocol? I would love to keep the thread on track and if your question is not about the protocol it probably wont get looked at very well being here ? I will say though supposably I had not lymph evolvement....the tracing dye couldn't even find mine so they don't think the cancer did either...strange right? But If you do have a question about Janes protocol can you tell me what about the protocol you want to know I am happy to help if I can? Which off label or supplement you need info about?
Snooky my fathers sister had the exact double MX you described (butchered so -to-speak) in the 80's....and yup never came back. She just died from something totally unrelated last year at almost 80 years old....
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Has anyone heard anything along the lines that Jane had said or have you saw articles stating that intermittent fasting of 14 hours a night is bad specifically for Stage 4???
Also here is what else I want to know...Glutamine cannot be blocked it self...but you can block the transport into the cell...cutting down on protein (if you have a protein driven cancer) can help...but why if MSK has the Patent on a Glutamine Driven PET scan...why are they not doing these yet??? Has anyone heard anything about that yet? That would help us know if we really need to go crazy trying to block that pathway....
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I'm skeptical about drawing the conclusion that fenbendazole made the cancer worse. Frankly, I'm skeptical of the theory that closing one pathway diverts the cancer towards a more aggressive pathway. That's in my mind an extraordinary claim. Why the cancer cells would prefer to feed off a fuel source that "placates" them, slowing their growth, when the other pathway was always open and presumably functioning, would require evidence. I think we need to keep our minds open to the possibility that some cancer patients simply won't respond to Fenbendazole, and some that may, are not cured, and will go on to progression. For some, progression is explosive growth.
Who is Chris Wark with his theory (that fenbendazole causes explosive cancer growth) and what are his credentials? When someone told him that such a theory would require extraordinary proof, his reply, which seemed "interesting" in my opinion, was "Saying fenbendazole cures cancer requires extraordinary proof." I'm reading something into that.
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Well stated Husband11.....I don't know that I agree anyway that it goes to a "more aggressive pathway" but rather that it just will go to another pathway when one is blocked....it does need to eat right?
Ref: Chris...I do not follow him..but I will say...no one can prove that Fenben does cure cancer...that is true..even joe used Immunotherapy and other supplements with it. I agree that Fenben may work for some and may not for others ...I also agree with the people that said they saw progression with it. Everyone is different.
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If you google Chris Wark, you find the story that he was a Stage 3 cancer patient who underwent surgery and turned away chemo. He wrote a book about how he beat cancer through changing his diet, alternative therapies, etc. His chances of survival, based on the surgery alone, would have been 64%. So its a stretch to say he beat the odds and learned how to beat cancer. He has no background in science, but rather marketing.
Here is a scathing review of Chris Wark's book, his website and "Cancer Coaching" for $200.00
He blames cancer victims for their mindset, and erases the testimonials of his followers that succumb to cancer.
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Husband..sorry if you misunderstood me I know who Chris is...I even watched his interview a while back with Jane...I just meant I am not a Follower of his.... lol
He also backpeddled on fresh fruit...originally he said even fresh fruit was bad because of sugar now he says eating fresh fruit is fine.....
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Agree there's too many people out there with manageable disease that claim they have cured themselves...in order to become health gurus and make a buck....they become overnight cancer experts when whatever they had was not deadly to start with...
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Nicole, I have not heard that intermittent fasting is bad for stage 4. Do you recall where you heard that and why? I do fast nightly for 13 hours
Is Chris Wark the “Chris Beat Cancer” website guy? I always thought he was a quack, out to make money. He spends a lot of $ on SEO (search engine optimization) so his website comes up with many different types of cancer searches in Google. I find it presumptuous for anyone to say they “beat” cancer. There is no way to know whether it will come back in 1 year or 20. Even Judy Perkins, who is thought to be “cured” of BC from the TIL trial. Her story is miraculous and has served to give me much hope for many years. However, no one knows whether she is having a durable, long-term response or is in fact “cured”. I hope it is the latter.
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yes I have commented already on his " Chris beat cancer" misleading statements- he has no credibility in my eyes. Thank you for digging up and scrutinizing info folk , I admit I have not enough knowledge of biochemistry and physiology to do it so sorry can not help any further.
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JFL... they were saying it on facebook...forgive me but sometimes I don't feel like cutting and pasting all the statements..sorry
anyway...if you watch or rewatch the Moss Interview with Jane I do see her state that fasting can make the cancer look for nutrients etc...and but it seems to me like she is talking about 2 & 3 days of fasting....so I wasn't clear...some people state to do a search on her site for it I tried but there are literally thousands of comments to sift through.....my brain is tired.0 -
My questions about the lymph node system popped up in my head after I read on a previous post on this thread:
Chris Wark of "Chris Beat Cancer" fame and founder of Square One, a popular FB cancer group on his conference callthis week he advised against Fenbenzadole, the dog dewormer, b/c there are new studies that indicate it initially slows down the cancer growth but w/in a few months it begins to explode uncontrollably. He recommended natural Artemisinin instead.
My mind goes in to a “trying to understand why this may have happened" mode, and I wondered if there was a correlation between a compromised lymph node system and cancer that begins to explode uncontrollably after several months on Fenbenzadole. I'm thinking, well, maybe the uncontrollable growth happens to some taking the dog dewormer but not to others, and my questions would be why is that? Who might benefit from Fenbenzadole and who might be advised against taking it? Why is it effective for some but has adverse effects on others?
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JFL,
On McLelland's repurposed drugs site, a poster recommended an article that explains the difficulty in assessing the impact of intermittent fasting, among other things, with respect to autophagy. That article, to me, doesn't say that Stage IV folks shouldn't use IF -- it seems to indicate, to me, that the whole autophagy thing is really, really difficult to understand, and so research is going on to see if there is some pharmacological additive that could "moderate" autophagy. It sounds to me like a two-edged sword and not very well understood by researchers.
The article is dense (aren't they all?) but here's the link:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC62570...
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Divine,
You have raised the question of the hour -- why does any drug work for some but not for others? You raise the lymph node issue, and I think that's probably as valid as any other.
I, too, think the Chris Beat Cancer guy is a quack, and just throwing stuff out there. I wouldn't take anything he says as informative or accurate. Happy that he beat his own cancer; not happy that he's trying to capitalize on that.
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Im sorry I think some of you are missing a step here...this is not about "CHRIS"....this is about what he said and about Mebendazole and Fendbendazole (bc the same thing can happen with both) and what he said is not unfounded...lets be clear here even Jane admitted that this can definitely happen if you are not blocking all the pathways... PLEASE do not misunderstand me this is not me STICKING UP FOR THIS GUY....I don't follow him...but I say again... there is no denying what he said is true..and Jane even confirmed it. So let's not just sit here discrediting him...that, to me is not what matters here...what matters here is that the statement he made about Fenben and Mebendazole has happened to many people...I only posted the story of a couple of people that it happened to...but there are more.. Now, whether this happens because of lymph node involvement I do not know I personally do not think so but hey what do I know. I think it is more about what Jane said and what you need to do to prevent it....again the problem is not Chris...the problem is some people are seeing a big progression on these and if they are not properly blocking autophagy its going to happen. Just for the record if you have not seen Janes interview with Chris...its pretty good.
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Chris Wark just posted on Facebook a couple of research articles about how fenbendazole activates genes that promote hepatocarcinogenesis in rat livers. He posts that in support of his hypothesis that fenbendazole promotes aggressive metastasis. That is way off base. Firstly, rats are especially prone to cancer. Even inert substances can cause cancer in rats. Secondly, hepatocarcinogenesis is about new, liver cancer, in rats. Not about promoting metastatic cancer to the liver, or proliferation of metastatic cancer. Metastatic breast cancer is breast cancer, not liver cancer. If what he was suggesting applied to humans, we would be seeing liver cancer, not proliferation of metastasis to the liver. Its apples and oranges.
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Husband,
Thanks for that information. Makes sense to me.
Nicole,
I think everyone realizes that you aren't sticking up for the guy -- but that article that the person posted on the Repurposed Drugs Facebook Page from PubMed (and the link of it that I reposted here for JFL and others) makes me think that it's not just as simple as blocking autophagy -- it seems to be a very complex situation beyond that. I read the article twice, and I don't fully understand it, but I get Jane's point about not blocking all pathways at the same time and how that is detrimental to the objective here.
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hi all, Joe responded in details on his blog, months ago, to an earlier worry about FZ damage to the liver...he said that in those clinical trials they used huge amounts...like 100 times more than what he's taking...
Of course, he would be the first one to know, since he's the one that's been on FZ the longest.... and wouldn’t the COC doctors be aware by now of these repercussions? Hummmm....
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what Joe posted about is different than the people I spoke to and posted there situations they were taking the 3 days on 4 off and the mebedazole 100mg 1 time a day. They had progression.
Whether chris said anything or just those people posted their story...what matters to me that I need to inhibit autophagy. I need to be sure to block all paths. To insure that doesnt happen to me.
Husband I appreciate your post and thoughts I just dont think I am looking at any of that the way you are. I dont care who posted what even his study i just dont have a care about that bc I already know that Jane and others confirmed this can happen it is happening to some people. I know there are many ppl that have seen progression on this med the question for me is what am i gonna use to insure that doesnt happen .
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Nicole, I agree its wise to cover as many pathways as possible. Also to employ as many cancer killing techniques as one can without causing counter productive drug interactions or simply make yourself ill. Yes, its not about the messengers, but the message.
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the question is whether they would have had progression anyway even without those drugs and as far as I understand only studies of the rate of progression of people on -azoles compared to the rate of progression of people without them with the same level of disease can answer that question ...
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The people whose stories I read and spoke to some of them (and I think one is on here) was NED for a while...then added that in and a few months later bam.....
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Nicole, thanks for posting information about where I can further look into the impact of intermittent fasting and BevJen, thanks for posting the article. I am going to research this further. It just seems like "the house always wins" and cancer finds a way around everything. Our bodies have so many different dynamic functions going on in orchestra, it is hard to know which are having a true impact at any given time. This definitely seems to be a complex issue, as are most issues with BC.
Nicole, on the topic of autophagy, I did recently read in another thread that the Chinese herb, baicelein induces authophagy by inhibiting the PI3K/AKT pathway. I have not done any research myself and have no background on this herb but wanted to pass along the information in case you want to look into it. Also, I can't recall if you have a PI3K or AKT mutation.
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JFL,
Please let us know what you find out adobe intermittent fasting and Stage 4. Totally unrelated to breast cancer, but my daughter, who is in absolutely great shape and knows a lot about fitness (she's a three time Ironman finisher, does triathlons and marathons all the time -- you get the picture) was talking with me the other day about intermittent fasting. She did not provide any articles in support of this (this was a casual conversation, after all) but she said that intermittent fasting is not great for women in general. She said most of the testing on IF was done on men, who have a different fight-or-flight response than women, and that for women, IF (and fasting in general) can induce much more stress on the system than on men. I don't know how that shakes out in all of this -- perhaps it's good to induce stress on the system when talking about Stage 4 and autophagy -- but I thought it was interesting nevertheless so I pass it along.
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