In Favor of Feminism: Share Your Views
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The only thing that surprises me about a group of college women sitting around discovering that many of their parents “had” to get married is the fact that they didn’t figure it out until they were in college! I’m pretty sure I would have done the math by the time I was in fifth grade.
The shame never seemed to be on the guy who “had” to get married. It was always the woman’s reputation that tanked. The guy was “doing the right thing” by “making her an honest women.” Such double standards.
Wrenn, I had a bit of a rebellious streak, too. I couldn’t help myself and would look at the women who never made waves and wonder how they did it. Clear up until maybe a decade ago, I always thought I was flawed.
Exbrnxgrl, it’d be hard to tell if your former mil was being truthful about her reasons for getting pregnant. I knew a number of high school classmates who got married right after graduation (1970s decade) just to get away from controlling mothers. Sometimes they’d coerce the boyfriend into marriage by getting pregnant on purpose.
I did not marry until I was in my 30s. Men were attracted to me, so I never worried about it. I knew eventually I’d meet the right guy. But my mom had a difficult marriage and I did not want to repeat her mistakes. Carly Simon’s song “That’s the Way I Always Heard It Should Be” had made a big impression on me at a young age: “But soon you’ll cage me on your shelf...I’ll never learn to be just me first, by myself.” I did not want tied to housework and childrearing while I was so young. It did not look like fun to me.
Dh and and I have evolved both as individuals and as a couple. It has been a lot of work and is still ongoing.
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We have recently discovered Garfunkel and Oates. They have a hilarious song about "God's Loophole". Warning - very NSFW!!
Garfunkel And Oates - The Loophole
It's a sad commentary on what girls are willing to do to maintain the attention of boys who really don't deserve it.
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Great song, have shared it already.
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Miriandra, oh my gosh! I am howling over the God's Loophole video! First, I'm a fan of The Big Bang Theory (one of the best sitcoms ever), so I recognized both women as actresses who'd had roles on the show.
Secondly, I never heard of their group, Garfunkle and Oates, but am glad to learn of them! I looked up a few quick Wiki notes and read that they took their name from “two famous rock-and-roll second bananas" which in itself is hysterically funny! (I also learned that the dark-haired one, Kate Micucci, was raised Catholic and learned classic piano.) I will be checking out more of their stuff.
Thirdly, I love that these two women formed a duo and that they are so blatant about the subject matter they want to sing about. It impresses me that two young, attractive women are so uninhibited that they can make a satirical comedy video about a generally taboo sexual subject, and star in it themselves! Many from the younger generation speak more freely about sex than my generation. I can handle private conversations but would never be able to put it all out there like these two have, and I applaud them for it. They are going against the societal pressure to be “good little girls", act demure and only whisper about sexual matters or not discuss them at all. I love that about them.
I haven't even touched on the oppressive, invasive purity culture that seeks to control women and their sexuality. It is another matter that angers me. I have more to say about it, but life's a little busier this summer, so I will leave my comments on that topic for another time.
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"Satan's doorbell"
BWAHAHAHA HAHA😂😂😂😂😂!!!!!!!!!
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I read some of the posts about Catholic teachings about sex and had to chime in. I was raised catholic (now a proud secular humanist) and I went to catholic schools, taught by the nuns. They also taught sex ed, so I was completely uneducated about sex.
One year there was a story in the news, I'm not sure why, about a 12 year old girl who was pregnant. The nun said that the girl was a "sinner" and that god put a baby in her to shame her - to show everyone that she had sinned. Well, that put a scare in me - I was also a "sinner". I sometimes told lies, I fought with my siblings, I disobeyed my parents, little stuff like that. BUT - god could put a baby in me, to show the world how bad I was???? I was terrified. AND - wait, didn't "god" put a baby in Mary? was she also a sinner? but that was supposed to be a good thing, because the baby was jesus? It was so confusing.
Also the someone a page back mentioned the Eucharist. To clear this up - the eucharist, the wafer called the "host" did not REPRESENT the body of jesus. during the mass, the host BECOMES the actual body of jesus. when the priest offers it to you, he says "the body of christ" and you reply "Amen." Amen meaning, yes, I accept that you have magically turned this wafer thing into a piece of the flesh of jesus. This was drummed into our poor little heads during religion class. people who thought the host represented the flesh of jesus were not true believers.
THAT was the thing that turned me - well, one of the things. there was also how in the 60's they changed he rules about a lot of things. But that eucharist turning into actual flesh (and wine into blood, but kids didn't get wine) I remember having a moment of disbelief. And that turned into questioning everything they ever taught me.
Back to the feminism topic - the school was connected to a church, a rectory and a convent. We had a tour once, and I discovered that priests lived somewhat lavish lifestyles. they had women who cooked and cleaned for them, and they ate fancy meals in a nice dining room with good plates and silver. And yes, the women in the church would often bring gifts of food. priests could drink and smoke, and could drive cars. Nuns, however, lived in dreary, plain rooms, and were responsible for their own cooking, cleaning, as well as cleaning the church. their meals were plain, they had none of the amenities the priests had. They spent most of their time praying for the souls in purgatory and doing chores. nuns lived lives of poverty and sacrifice. I have no doubt that nuns were raped by priests - and then blamed for it.
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tinkerbell.. your last paragraph described what was intended by the church and that was to let men be men, meaning they get unearned privileges and women get to be their servants. Sadly, not much has changed. Cardinals wear bright red to do the 'work' of electing a pope, while Sisters wear black, brown, blue or white to work the colors of servitude.
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We had to attend a childbirth education course in order for me to be able to deliver my DS at a Catholic hospital. The course was conducted by a nun who used a pink, blue and white knitted uterus to illustrate the delivery of a baby doll. My DH who was a product of Catholic education asked sotto voce how a nun who had never been pregnant could even begin to describe a labor pain let alone the labor process. The couple next to us heard him and nearly wet themselves laughing. Fortunately, she did not but it was a telling point. I was a repeat C-section but was not permitted to waive the course so it ws not of much use to me.
The parish priest we had was from a very wealthy family and did not take the vow of poverty. The rectory was lavishly decorated, he drove a big Cadillac and was known to play the ponies. My GM was the church organist so I had to be careful because he did not practice the sanctity of privacy in the confessionals and once asked if I had considered becoming a nun. When I answered, hell, no, he left his berth and opened the door to my section and read me the riot act. I had been in the convent on many occasions and it looked more like a shelter for the homeless than a living place for women who dedicated their lives to the parish, the church, the school and their congregation. They wore patched robes while he wore very expensive vestments and suits.
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tinkerbell - That was me! I couldn't believe. 😉 When I learned that Santa was made up, I figured other things were as well. I took it a little far when I thought seahorses weren't real until I saw a dead one wash up on a beach.
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I saw in the news that horrible Cardinal Burke has Covid. Karma, baby, after he preached against vaccines. What a prick.
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Miriandra
They are incredible! That song should be the feminist anthem, but I think most of us would trip over our tongues trying to get the lyrics out!
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Another great video, Miriandra! Women are often conditioned from birth to accept a less-than role. It is interesting to see it presented in this way.
Here is a similar train of thought:
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Here's some good news! The new Chief Ranger of Grand Canyon National Park is a woman.
https://www.nps.gov/grca/learn/news/chief-of-visit...
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About the childbirth class taught by a nun - well, at least the nun has a uterus, other female anatomy and a female endocrine system. Before the natural childbirth movement when such things as childbirth education classes didn't exist, obstetrics and gynecology was controlled exclusively by male MDs. The only education or information you would get was from your most likely male gynecologist.
Now, so many women prefer female doctors of all types, that male med students are worrying about lack of opportunities for them. Oh well - that's a shame but I won't exactly shed a tear over it or anything
Divine - your recent post reminded me of this very sad article I saw in the GuardianWish somehow these women could make that imagetheir reality.
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🤣
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olma,
This may not be a popular thing to say but … After having lived a typical Afghan life in my typical Afghan neighborhood and traveling throughout the country I think that to a great extent western media characterizes Afghan women through the lens of our culture, not theirs. Let me be clear, I despise the Taliban and the cruel, twisted version of Islam that they will force on the country. I despise the fact that for a minority of women in Afghanistan who sought education that the opportunity will likely be severely limited at the very least. Notice that I said the minority of women because the reality is even in the best of times, education for women was never a priority. Yes, some women attended Kabul University and a few even studied abroad. Before I left for Afghanistan I had dinner with an Afghan women and a few other Afghan students at Columbia University. But the reality was that only a small number of more westernized and wealthy families would allow that. Afghanistan is a poor country. Disease is rampant, child mortality rates are high and the health care system is abysmal in the cities and virtually non-existent in the provincial areas. Although much improved since my time there, communication with the rest of the world becomes limited outside the big cities. Tribal/familial affiliations are everything and acts of revenge are still carried out over decades old feuds. Superstitions abound and for many simple survival takes priority over education. Yes, for some women the loss of their places and voices in society will be devastating but far too many struggle simply to survive and have their children survive. This is not a new problem and I won’t go into the history of public health programs run by foreign countries/NGOs.
Lest this sound as if I don’t like Afghanistan or Afghans, let me correct that. I love Afghanistan and I love the people. They are incredibly hospitable, generous and loyal. They have a great love of music and poetry. They are fantastic story tellers! And they cook delicious rice dishes like Qabili Pilau and Sabzi Pilau. I arrived a few months before my 21st birthday and that’s when I really grew up. I owe them a debt of gratitude that I can never repay. But I am clear eyed and pragmatic. It is a culture vastly different from what most of us understand. I really can’t say that strongly enough. As I mentioned in an earlier post, more Peace Corps volunteers left Afghanistan before their two year commitment was up than any other Peace Corps country. It was not an easy place to live, and that was in a time of peace.
Forgive me and this passionate post but Afghanistan is a part of my soul. Afghanistan Zindagi ! (long live Afghanistan)
PS: I taught most of my classes at the Ariana Afghan Airlines head office which was very close to the US embassy. I also taught one class at the airport. It is unrecognizable when I see it on TV.
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exbrnxgrl, Thank you for the reminder that all too often, we judge other cultures and ethnicities in comparison with our own materialistic one. "They're not like us, they must be fixed!" has ruined so many people's lives.
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in a thread about feminism, all I can say is if you don't believe that women worldwide deserve basic human rights despite any “cultural differences", then I am not sure if w really believe in feminism or the existence of a “patriarchy “.
I am not accusing or putting words in anyone's mouth here. Merely making a statement of my beliefs and I hope to have this be my last word on the topic of the human rights ofAfghani women.
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Yes, I totally get what you are saying about feminism but again, when ones concerns are simply survival and the survival of ones children, the western concept of feminism is meaningless regardless of ones beliefs. The effects of culture and religion on a poor uneducated population* have been grossly underestimated in Afghanistan today and for hundreds of years. The failure to understand this and work within the context of their culture is why the country has never been conquered and why women remain in the position they do.
I am not saying this is good or bad only that it is a reality for a country I owe so much to. I think it is also important to understand that the women who, rightfully, are now terrified of losing what they’ve gained are still a minority. Again this is unfortunate but it is reality. If there is to be any hope for Afghanistan and it’s people, it has to be in the context of their culture not ours. Remember if you are worried that 50% of your children will die by age 5, or that you can’t feed those who survive, education and equality for women is not at the top of your to do list. Change will never come unless we stop trying to push that change through the lens of western culture and values. We may not like it that way but trying to change things in Afghanistan needs to come from the Afghan people, not the outside. We simply cannot project our ideals and values on a country whose culture, customs, and traditions are unimaginable to many in the west. Hasn’t worked in the past, doesn’t work in the present.
Afghan- an adjective describing people or things from Afghanistan . Afghani- a unit of currency in Afghanistan
Please don’t get me wrong. I do not support the oppression and backwardness that the Taliban is almost certain to bring. But understanding the reality of Afghanistan, past and present, is something that westerners consistently fail to do.
* A huge portion of the population, male and female, were illiterate when I lived there. The estimates were as high as 90%. Scribes sat on the streets near courts or other official buildings and offered their reading/writing services to the public. Now, that was quite a long time ago but I doubt things have improved much given the chaos that has existed over the years.
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I was too vague regarding literacy rates and child mortality rates in present day Afghanistan. Although improved since the late 1970's, they are still abysmal. It is impossible to try to understand feminism in the Afghan context if one doesn't understand how grinding poverty, high child mortality and massive illiteracy colorthe picture.
https://uil.unesco.org/interview-literacy-rate-afghanistan-increased-43-cent
http://www.ijstr.org/final-print/sep2016/Morbidity-And-Mortality-In-Afghanistan.pdf
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Perhaps taking in Afghan refugees can help bring about change for Afghanistan from Afghan people on the outside.
I know of 2 refugees in Montreal who came as children. Both are women who went on to become doctors.
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Serenity,
That is a lovely idea. Perhaps someday they can return and help their country. I live near Fremont, CA which is often called Little Kabul. This is a community whose roots go back more than 30 years to refugee resettlement after the Russian invasion. Most of their children and grandchildren have never seen their parents home land. So yes, they have flourished outside the restrictions of traditional Afghan society. Not many I know would be willing to go back now but perhaps a newer generation of refugees will.
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exbrnxgrl, I understand that our western view of feminism is not relevant to discussions about Afghanistan. I understand that the women who are terrified of losing what they gained are the minority of women within the country. While I am concerned about the loss of freedoms and the possibility that education and opportunity might be denied to girls and women, I am currently much more concerned that the minority who have benefitted will not just lose their gains, but may lose their lives. My definition of feminism with regard to Afghanistan is that women should not be murdered because of their beliefs or because they have been educated.
I also appreciate that "if you are worried that 50% of your children will die by age 5, or that you can't feed those who survive, education and equality for women is not at the top of your to do list" however to my understanding there are numerous examples around the world that show that when women are given opportunity, the whole society benefits and the standard of living improves for all. It makes sense. If 100% of adults are given the opportunity to work and to go out into the world to support the family, the results obviously will be more favorable than if only 50% of adults are given that opportunity. That's as far as I go with regard to "feminism" when it comes to Afghanistan and other similar countries.
The situation there now for girls and women horrifies me.
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“ however to my understanding there are numerous examples around the world that show that when women are given opportunity, the whole society benefits and the standard of living improves for all. It makes sense. If 100% of adults are given the opportunity to work and to go out into the world to support the family, the results obviously will be more favorable than if only 50% of adults are given that opportunity.“
That is absolutely correct! From my POV, unfortunately, this has to be done in baby steps. Change comes incredibly slowly to isolated tribal societies. I am certainly not arguing against freedoms and education for women but solving grinding poverty, high child mortality and everything that goes with it has to come first. And it has to happen, if foreign agencies are involved, with the utmost consideration for a cultural that is almost unimaginable to most of us. Sadly, whether for men or women, education has never been a high priority for the country as a whole and the low literacy rate speaks to that.
I was the English teacher for Ariana Afghan Airlines. I taught a class to mechanics at the airport as they owned three Boeing aircraft at the time and the manuals are in English. The first time I gave a test, several of the students were freely sharing answers. When I asked them to work on their own they couldn’t understand why. Turns out, they didn’t really view it as cheating. They were simply helping friends which was much more important to them than the integrity of the test. I taught the flight attendants as well and they pretty much did the same thing. This is just a mild illustration of how differently two cultures view the same situation. Despite some of them having terrible English they were repairing aircraft and were responsible for in flight safety. Is it any wonder that they are not allowed to operate in any EU country? When I was there they flew to London and Frankfurt.
Bottom line for me? You can’t educate or help educate people whose children routinely die before age five, who have little food or clean water (a majority of childhood deaths are caused by water borne illnesses) and have to fight just to survive. When that is solved, or perhaps while it’s being solved, then we can talk education. I love that country dearly but I am very clear eyed about reality there and it’s far more complicated than most people think.0 -
exbrnxgrl, I hope that girls in Afghanistan continue to be allowed to go to school. But that wasn't my point. I'm talking about survival. I hope that those already educated, or those trying to go to school, aren't tortured, kidnapped into slavery, or murdered. I don't want female teachers and business leaders to be murdered. I don't want female journalists (or any journalists) to be murdered. There is nothing complicated about that.
And when I mentioned women being "given the opportunity to work and to go out into the world to support the family", I wasn't going so far as to suggest educating girls (much as I hope that it happens/continues, at the appropriate pace for that society). I was merely saying that I hope that women be allowed to leave their homes without men in support of their families without risk of being beaten or murdered.
"One morning in the summer of 1999, Shukriya Barakzai woke up feeling dizzy and feverish. According to the Taliban's rules, she needed a Maharram, a male guardian, in order to leave home to visit the doctor. Her husband was at work, and she had no sons. So she shaved her 2-year-old daughter's head, dressed her in boys' clothing to pass her off as a guardian, and slipped on a burka. Its blue folds hid her fingertips, painted red in violation of the Taliban's ban on nail polish. She asked her neighbor, another woman, to walk with her to the doctor in central Kabul. Around 4:30 p.m. they left the doctor's office with a prescription. They were heading toward the pharmacy when a truckload of Taliban militants from the Ministry for the Propagation of Virtue and Prevention of Vice pulled up beside them. The men regularly drove around Kabul in pickup trucks, looking for Afghans to publicly shame and punish for violating their moral code.
The men jumped out of the truck and started whipping Barakzai with a rubber cable until she fell over, then continued whipping her. When they finished, she stood up, crying. She was shocked and humiliated. She had never been beaten before." THE TALIBAN'S RETURN IS CATASTROPHIC FOR WOMEN https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2021/08/the-talibans-return-is-awful-for-women-in-afghanistan/619765/
I was a feminist in the 1970s. I started reading Ms. magazine from it's first edition. My career was in business, and in the early years, I was often the only female manager in the department. I've dealt with my share of @$#0\€$. I know how difficult it was for women, and I have seen so much progress. More is necessary, of course, but my frustration with Western feminism of late is that too much time is spent focused on things that, in the scheme of things, are not all that important. Meanwhile, in much of the world, women remain chattel, subject to the whims of their fathers, brothers, and husbands (and the women who buy into their patriarchal system).My apologies if I'm taking this thread off track.
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You apologize? No my dear beesie, I should. My decades old passion for Afghanistan always gets the better of me. Yes, I have no doubt that the Taliban will bring violence and terror to anyone they perceive as western or breaking the rules of their extreme version of Islam. The story of Ms. Barakzai will likely be repeated far too many times.
I saw one tiny glimmer of hope on the news today. This day, August 19 is Afghan Independence Day (British war). This was a big holiday. I remember going to a fair at the Jashun Grounds in Kabul. Today there was a small group of demonstrators waving the Afghan flag (not the Taliban flag) in Kabul. They were soon dispersed by the Taliban but it heartened me to see Afghans taking up the mantle of resistance. I have no idea how far this movement will get but Afghans themselves must save their own country. History has shown that foreigners simply can’t, for hundreds of reasons, but I hope Afghans can. I realize how pessimistic that sounds and I hate that I feel that way but I’ve been a student of that country since that July day in 1977 when I stepped off the plane in Kabul. As a side note, the airport is totally unrecognizable to me. What a mess
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As I shared on this forum's liberal thread, I am uneducated when it comes to the war in Afghanistan, so I do not think it is something I should offer much comment on. I'm not sure why the U.S. withdrawal had to happen exactly now in the midst of the worldwide pandemic. It seems to have added additional turmoil to our already unsettled world. But I have no insight into any of it other than to know there are lessons for the U.S. to be learned from our involvement there.
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And I have been compulsively watching news coverage from Kabul and am depressed. I started watched crime shows because even those were less depressing. Sometimes I think of my little house in Kabul and wonder if it’s still there.
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