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In Favor of Feminism: Share Your Views

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  • minustwo
    minustwo Member Posts: 13,116
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    Divine - thanks for posting the great explanation of giving vs. taking. Of course women are "programed" to give in all instances.

    Short aside - When we moved to Texas in 1974, I applied for a check cashing card at the local grocery store. Of course women couldn't get credit cards at the time. The customer service desk asked me why I hadn't listed my husband, & they wanted to add his name to for check pre-approval.. I told her that he ever cashed a check in the store - or even came into the store - they should call the cops because it would mean I was dead.

  • olma61
    olma61 Member Posts: 1,016
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    Hey voracious, fellow Paglia fan here, too : )

    Minus Two, great comeback! I laughed out loud for real.

    Speaking of women's sports, I heard about the women's beach handball team who was fined because they refused to wear the skimpy bikini bottoms that were selected as their uniform and opted to wear shorts instead.

    I get that it's “beach" handball and that the league want to sell tickets but really? Playing a serious game in tiny bottoms, in the hot sun?

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/20/sports/norway-beach-handball-team.html

    They're pictured from the front wearing the bikinis in the times article. There are images elsewhere of the rear view and they aren't thong bottoms, but almost thongs....I feel the image might be a little too risqué for BCO - hard to believe this is a requirement in the current era.

    Not a prude myself, either, but playing a sport and being hired to look beautiful lounging on a beachare two different things.

  • divinemrsm
    divinemrsm Member Posts: 6,065
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    Olma, I saw this today on FB. I often read a handful of comments to get an idea of what others are saying, and someone did point out that the complaint should have been made prior to the games and I agree. I hope that the players pursue the matter after the Olympics, and these rules get changed. It is so messed up. I read a month or so ago about female gymnasts also trying to go about changing some of the clothing rules for their sport.



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  • SerenitySTAT
    SerenitySTAT Member Posts: 3,534
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    Divine - I alluded to this in my first post in this thread. The women did complain before. They were willing to pay the fine. Then they were threatened with disqualification on top of the fine.

  • divinemrsm
    divinemrsm Member Posts: 6,065
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    Serenity, I can't even believe this discrepancy between men and women's uniforms still exists! It's upsetting.

    Here is a good article from MSNBC (editted for length). The word they use to describe the uniforms is hypersexualization.


    *This Norwegian beach handball bikini debacle is absurdly archaic

    July 20, 2021, 6:43 PM EDT

    Even being a world-class athlete won't shield you from having to deal with misogynist crap.

    International Handball Federation regulations stipulate that female athletes must wear bikini bottoms "with a close fit and cut on an upward angle toward the top of the leg," and "the side width must be of a maximum of 10 centimeters," or about 4 inches. However, their male counterparts are allowed to wear shorts, as long as they clear 10 centimeters above the kneecap.

    The Norwegian players chose to move forward with the uniform change as a form of public protest against archaic rules that prioritize hypersexualization over the comfort of the athletes. The Norwegian Handball Federation supported the players and agreed to pay the fines on their behalf.

    "I hope we get a breakthrough for this and that next summer we play in what we want,"said team captain Katinka Haltvik.

    Obviously, there is nothing inherently harmful about a bikini, in sports or otherwise. However, when required athletic uniforms are dictated by gender norms rather than the needs of the athletic activity, therein lies the problem — and the deeply embedded sexism.

    To pretend that the way athletes are costumed has no bearing on the way they are perceived would be naïve. There is a reason that Olympic beach volleyball players are often photographed in parts rather than as whole humans: close-ups of butts and torsos and chests rather than as living, breathing, moving marvels.

    To force female athletes to wear outfits they feel fundamentally limited by or uncomfortable in only serves to perpetuate the idea that they exist, first and foremost, to be consumed. The men can play. The women are putting on a show.

    At the end of the day, the focus should be on the physical abilities of beach handball players, not the number of centimeters the seams of their uniforms are from their vulvas. If the athletes who play beach handball are demanding change, ignoring them sends the message that the ability of the public to leer at female bodies is more important than the sport itself.


  • divinemrsm
    divinemrsm Member Posts: 6,065
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    I looked to see if there was any follow-up to the story and found this: In response to expressions of criticism at the rules, and the treatment of the Norwegian women's team, European Handball Federation [EHF] President Michael Wiederer insisted that "the EHF will do all it can to ensure that a change of athlete uniform regulations can be implemented," but said such a rules change "could not happen overnight."

    And here's a photo of what the handball players got fined for wearing.

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  • voraciousreader
    voraciousreader Member Posts: 3,696
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    want to talk about transgender and female sports? My crystal ball tells me that argument is heading to the Supreme Court sooner or later…

  • SerenitySTAT
    SerenitySTAT Member Posts: 3,534
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    I went to parochial schools until I was about 13. Girls were required to wear skirts that were a certain distance from the knees. To check they made the girls kneel. Picture that. 🤬

    As for the Olympics, some of their rules can be sexist and racist. For example, the approved swimming caps don't fit some swimmers with natural Black hair. One swimmer designed caps to fit, but couldn't get it approved for Olympic competition. Can't remember the nonsensical reason given, but the cap wouldn't give them a competitive advantage. Not everyone is willing to shave their hair (and those of us who lost hair definitely understand).

  • divinemrsm
    divinemrsm Member Posts: 6,065
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    Serenity, I attended a Catholic grade school for several years, too, and remember those skirt length guidelines. When I transferred to public school, dress code for girls still required us to wear skirts or dresses. Not until 1974 or 75 did the rules change and we were permitted to wear “pantsuits", no jeans, and then a year or so later, jeans were finally allowed.

    According to this article from ABC (edited for length) there is improvement in women's Olympic sports on some levels:


    *Tokyo is the most gender-equal Olympics in the games' history, organizers said.


    At the first modern Olympic Games, held in 1896 in Athens, there wasn't a single female competitor. When the 2020 Games kick off in Tokyo this month, nearly half of the athletes competing will be women.

    Tokyo marks a "turning point" for the elite international sporting competition as the most gender-equal Olympics in the games' history, organizers said, with women accounting for nearly 49% of the 11,090 athletes. That's up from 45% at the last games in 2016 in Rio, 23% at the 1984 Games in Los Angeles, 13.2% at the 1964 Games in Tokyo, and 2.2% at the 1900 Games in Paris -- the first to have female athletes.

    The milestone comes as the 2020 Games have sparked a conversation around the needs of mothers in particular, regarding accommodations around pregnancy, breastfeeding and child care and as scandals involving the abuse and harassment of female athletes continue to plague sports globally.

    The International Olympic Committee has been working toward achieving more gender equity in terms of athlete quotas and event programming. The IOC was "very deliberate" about working to increase the number of female athletes in 2020, said IOC Sports Director Kit McConnell.

    "We got the overall number of athletes down from Rio to Tokyo, but even in getting the overall number down, we increased the number of women's athletes," he said.

    For the first time, each team participating will have at least one female and one male athlete, and the 2020 Games will feature new events for women and more mixed-gender teams in an attempt at greater gender equity within sports.

    Some events have been dropped for men and added for women in boxing, canoe slalom and rowing, and two more women's teams will compete in water polo in Tokyo than in Rio, for 10 women's teams and 12 men's teams total. In swimming, the 1,500-meter freestyle -- an event only men previously competed in at the Olympics -- has also been added for women.

    The five sports debuting at Tokyo -- karate, skateboarding, speed climbing, surfing and three-on-three basketball – will all have women's events.

    Tokyo Games will have double the number of mixed-gender events than in 2016, for 18 total, including in archery, shooting, judo, table tennis, track and field, triathlon, swimming and surfing.

    Additionally, for the opening ceremony, all Olympic teams are encouraged to have one male and one female athlete carry their country's flag.


    *Increased visibility for women's sports

    When the games are broadcast, women's events will also have more visibility in the 2020 Games, with a more balanced schedule on the weekends -- including more women's team gold medal events (17) than men's (13) on the last weekend. "It's not just about having the athletes on the field of play, it's also finding the best positions in the schedule to promote those events as well," McConnell said.

    The Olympics are a time when women's sports often receive their greatest visibility. "Generally speaking, the coverage of women's sports is very low, and I think the Olympics is often the exception to that," said Sarah Axelson, vice president of advocacy for the Women's Sports Foundation.

    Having more women in the Olympics has a "ripple effect," with more investment and equality in other competitions. The Olympics can also create a pathway for professional athletes.

    *More room for improvement

    Other areas within the Olympics movement are working toward greater gender equality. For Tokyo, the Paralympic Games will have at least 40.5% female athletes, up from 38.6% at Rio in 2016.

    Over the past decade, only 10% of accredited coaches at the Olympic Summer and Winter Games were women, according to the IOC. The organization has committed to working with international sports federations and national Olympic committees to have more female coaches.

    "That area is a little bit harder for us to directly control," McConnell said, noting that the IOC can set athlete quotas, but the athletes ultimately choose their coaches. "But what we can do is put in place programs and create opportunities from the bottom up to ... develop women's coaches."

    The IOC has also been working to improve the representation of women within the organization itself, where women currently make up 33.3% of the IOC executive board and 37.5% of IOC members.

  • divinemrsm
    divinemrsm Member Posts: 6,065
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    A timely story related to our discussion on female musicians:

    This weekend, on July 25, Ukrainian conductor Oksana Lyniv will conduct the premiere that opens the renowned Bayreuth Festival in Germany. She will be the first woman to head the international ensemble orchestra at the annual festival at which performances of operas by the 19th-century German composer Richard Wagner are presented.

    "The fact that I am a woman does not make the Flying Dutchman score any easier or harder. The fact that I, a woman, can stand at the podium here is perhaps a symbol of our time."


    Oksana Lyniv, first female conductor at the Bayreuth Festival: 'A symbol of our time' | DW | 25.06.2021


    full article: https://www.dw.com/en/oksana-lyniv-first-female-co...


  • minustwo
    minustwo Member Posts: 13,116
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    We were not allowed to wear any kind of pants in public schools. Once a year we had "bermuda day" in high school, and you can believe they checked the lengths. I had "capris" for after school wear but never owned a pair of long pants.

    When I went to college in the snow country, I had to walk 2 miles to class through huge snow drifts (because of course my parents didn't think girls needed cars either). We were expected to wear skirts AND nylons (and that's with girdles for those of you who remember). There were a few exceptions, like skiing or horseback riding or dancing in leotards & full tights. My second year I took the bus to Good Will and bought a pair of jeans and cowboy boots and wore them everywhere. Of course I was "shunned" by the "good girls". That was likely the start of my WTH attitude.

    Edited w/more detail about girls & cars. Apparently if you had a car and drove it to church or class or wherever - you wouldn't be able to accept the offer of a ride home from that nice boy - that might lead to a date - that might lead to..... (well of course marriage was the only option)

  • illimae
    illimae Member Posts: 5,607
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    Minus, that’s so crazy to me. I wore jeans almost daily in school, walked alone or drove myself later in HS. My parents only suggested that I grow my nails (I was a nail bitter) and have longer hair (I preferred an ear length bob) to be prettier but I ignored all that.

  • exbrnxgrl
    exbrnxgrl Member Posts: 4,830
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    Like minustwo, I was required to wear dresses or skirts well into jr. high school. This was the NYC public school system (PS 97 in the Bronx)in the early 1960’s. When it was cold we were allowed to wear pants under our skirts/dresses to keep warm but we had to remove them once we got to school. Of course by the time I was in 7th grade I was a bit more concerned with fashion and preferred to have my thighs frozen solid as I walked almost a mile to school. Ah, the folly of youth!

  • trishyla
    trishyla Member Posts: 698
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    I specifically ran for eighth grade class president on the platform of changing the dress code to allow girls to wear pants and shorts (necessary in hot, hot hot So. Cal.). I threw in a "boys should be able to wear Bermuda shorts" so I could get their votes, too.

    It worked. I was elected in a landslide. Did I know how to pander, or what? It took me half the school year and dozens of petitions, but it was finally changed.

    For a tomboy like me, it was heaven to get to wear my cords, hang ten tees and my wallabies. Anyone who understands that last sentence is probably old. Like me. 😏

  • exbrnxgrl
    exbrnxgrl Member Posts: 4,830
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    Clark’s wallabies 💗

  • minustwo
    minustwo Member Posts: 13,116
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    Trishyla - or if not old, at least from California - LOL

    I just read a series of reviews about a book that sounds interesting - Girlhood: Essays by Melissa Febos. She is an associate professor in the Nonfiction Writing Program at the University of Iowa & it's the first I've heard of her, although she's published a memoir and a previous book of essays. Food for thought.

    "These eight hard-hitting essays illuminate the experience of growing up female.... She writes of humiliation, unrequited love, self-hatred, sexual experimentation, drug taking, and violence against women. These are not always easy subjects to read about; nor are the simple to write about without resorting to propaganda or incoherent rage... But Febos takes a 'nuanced approach to the harms that we live with, both those perpetuated upon us and those we walk into with eyes wide open' " (NPR).

    "In Girlhood, whether examining adolescent bullying and the etymological roots of the word 'slut' or exploring the evolution of consent against the backdrop of cuddle parties, Febos illuminates how women are conditioned to be complicit in our own exploitation." (Washington Post)

    "Every once in awhile a book comes along that feels so definitive, so necessary, that not only do you want to tell everyone to read it now, but you also find yourself wanting to go back in time and tell your younger self that you will one day get to read something that will make your life make some sense." (Oprah Daily)

  • voraciousreader
    voraciousreader Member Posts: 3,696
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    exbrn…ditto Brooklyn

  • SerenitySTAT
    SerenitySTAT Member Posts: 3,534
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    I prefer pants to skirts. Hated being forced to wear a skirt. When my daughters went to school that required a uniform, they were allowed pants or skirts. My daughters preferred the skirts even in the frigid weather. 🤔

    Their choice and no rulers.

  • chicagoan
    chicagoan Member Posts: 971
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    I went to a service today, dedicating the new monument to Ida B Welles-"The Light of Truth." It is really magnificent. The photos don't do it justice but I wanted to share because I know at least one of you contributed money for the construction of the piece. I really like her definition of a woman.

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  • mommamonaster
    mommamonaster Member Posts: 13
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    Don't know if this has been brought up, but I just finished watching Picture a Scientist on Netflix. It's a frustrating, beautiful, anger inducing, tear producing, hopeful documentary about the challenges women face in STEM careers.

  • mountainmia
    mountainmia Member Posts: 857
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    momma, yes, I watched Picture a Scientist this spring. It's all that you just said.

  • divinemrsm
    divinemrsm Member Posts: 6,065
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    Chicagoan, thanks for posting the the Ida B. Wells monument pictures! Gorgeous!

    Mommamonaster, thanks for the Netflix recommendation, I will probably watch it this week. I often put earbuds in and watch shows on my ipad when I'm at the kitchen island making dinner.

    MinusTwo, thanks for the book recommendation, I will check for it on my library's web site.

    Trish, haha! I got the biggest laugh out of your political savvy by including dress code changes for boys as well as girls. So smart of you!

    Once we had a relaxed dress code at school, I wore pants but still wore dresses or skirts sometimes, too, because I liked them. It was just nice to have the choice.


  • divinemrsm
    divinemrsm Member Posts: 6,065
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  • divinemrsm
    divinemrsm Member Posts: 6,065
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    Mommamonaster, wow! Thank you so much for recommending “Picture a Scientist” on Netflix! I watched it today and was blown away by everything about the film, the stories, the insights, the outrage. It was so well done! I join you in recommending it, and am going on FB to recommend it too.

    Here’s a description of it I found online. “ Picture a Scientist handles the volatile subject of sexual harassment faced by women in science, by following the paths of three scientists. The film documents the incredible bravery of these women in taking up the issue. Sexual harassment is not just being forcibly subjected to unwanted attention or being asked for sexual favours; this is but the tip of the iceberg. The submerged part of the iceberg is what we often ignore: alienating behavior, opportunities denied, and much more as the film brings out. The film also spotlights the bold and inspiring scientific luminaries who are changing the culture of science and providing new perspectives on how to make it more diverse, equitable and open to all.


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  • mommamonaster
    mommamonaster Member Posts: 13
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    MrsS - Glad you enjoyed it.

  • divinemrsm
    divinemrsm Member Posts: 6,065
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    mommamonaster, I plan to watch the film again. It's compelling because these scientists collected the evidence required to prove their points. Other scientists could not turn their back on that. The results of the one experiment where an identical resume was sent out with the only difference being one had a man's name and one had a woman's name was mind-boggling.

  • divinemrsm
    divinemrsm Member Posts: 6,065
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  • divinemrsm
    divinemrsm Member Posts: 6,065
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    Rosie the Riveter" Phyllis Gould dies at 99


    July 27, 2021


    By Norah O'Donnell


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    One of the six original "Rosie the Riveters" died last week after spending her life making sure Americans would never forget the trailblazing women who helped boost the country's military arsenal during World War II.

    Phyllis Gould died July 20 from complications of a stroke, her family told CBS News.

    She worked at a California shipyard for $0.90 an hour.

    "We had equal pay with the men. I was married, a young marriage, and he was a welder and I became a welder and was making the same money he did," she said during a White House visit in 2014.

    She was one of around five million civilian women who worked in factories and shipyards during World War II, which freed men to go fight in the war.

    Gould helped establish a museum and make March 21 "National Rosie the Riveter Day." She wrote hundreds of handwritten letters lobbying for a Congressional Gold Medal for the Riveters. Her efforts paid off. At the time of her death, she was working to design the award, which will be given out next year.

    She took that tenacious work ethic home with her too. She built a log cabin with a hammer and nails. At age 92, she joined fellow Riveters at the White House, a lifelong dream of hers.

    She logged a life well-lived in her meticulous journals, writing, "I still have places to go and adventures to live."

    "She wants on her gravestone: 'Mission Accomplished,'" her sister, Marian Sousa, told the San Francisco Chronicle. "I think she did it all."

    Gould was 99-years-old.



  • divinemrsm
    divinemrsm Member Posts: 6,065
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    Have you seen this 1 minute commercial? I LOVE it!




    There she is, Miss America

    There she is, your ideal

    With so many beauties she took the town by storm

    With her all-American face and form

    And there she is

    Walking on air, she is

    Fairest of the fair, she is

    Miss America

  • divinemrsm
    divinemrsm Member Posts: 6,065
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