Please respect that this forum is for members with stage IV/metastatic breast cancer only. There is a separate forum for caregivers and friends: Caring for Someone with Stage 4 or Mets.
Posted on: Jan 1, 2018 05:03AM - edited Jun 18, 2018 12:19AM by zarovka
Luckylegs and friends on Abemaciclib - I am bumping the Verzenio discussion in the hopes that more people have started abemaciclib. We need to get a community going. I have not started abemaciclib but it is on my short list. Like many I am very interested in how people do on this treatment do, both as a monotherapy and in combination with hormone suppression and other treatment. I am hoping that this thread can capture the experience of everyone on Abemaciclib in whatever combination. This is a very important treatment option that we all need to be evaluating.
I would expect more people on the drug given the significant advantages of abemaciclib over the first generation CDK 4/6 inhibitors. However, the FDA has approved abemaciclib for only limited indications. We have not established its use as a first line treatment nor as something to switch to from Ibrance. At the same time, they haven't made it clear that the drug can and should be used after Ibrance. As a result, the setting for using abemaciclib is supremely unclear.
I believe abemaciclib can be used either instead of or after palbo/ribo depending on whether you view abemiciclib as another class of drug or the same class of drug with significant improvement. One can make arguments for either strategy. If you've already done palbo/ribo, it is certainly worth trying abemaciclib. If you haven't done palbo/ribo, the current guideline that you start with the first generation CDK 4/6 is reasonable, but not necessary IMO. A lot depends on the side effect profile you can tolerate the best as the drugs have significant differences in side effects and also whether you are at risk of brain mets. Abemaciclib is better at crossing the blood brain barrier.
The following summary of abemaciclib data taken from a thread started by Constantine on Inspire. I moved his entire discussion from three posts because it's that good. Thank you Constantine.
Preliminary data from a phase I study of abemaciclib [SABCS 2014] in patients with five different tumor types including HR-positive metastatic breast cancer, with I note a median of seven prior systemic therapies (outliers out to 11 lines) found an objective response rate of 19% and a disease control rate (including stable disease (SD) under RECIST definition of >24 weeks of ) of 81% for HR-positive MBC patients. This Phase I study was expanded to evaluate abemaciclib plus fulvestrant in HR-positive MBC [ASCO 2014.] with patients having a median of four prior systemic therapies (and outliers out to the eight line), finding an objective response rate of 62% confirmed PRs.
A subsequent Phase I study [Tolaney et al, J Clin Oncol 2015;33(Suppl 1).] of abemaciclib in combination with different endocrine therapies for HR-positive MBC (median lines of treatment = 3, with outliers out to 8) demonstrated a disease control rate (CR + PR + SD) was 67% for those on abemaciclib + AI therapy, and 75% for those on abemaciclib + tamoxifen.
The phase II MONARCH-1 trial evaluated abemaciclib MONOTHERAPY in HR-positive, HER2-negative MBC patients with a median of 3 lines of prior therapy for advanced disease, including a median of 2 lines of chemotherapy (as opposed to endocrine or biological therapy) for advanced disease, yielding an objective response rate (ORR) of 17.4% and a clinical benefit rate (CBR) of 42.4%.
What's important to remember about MONARCH-1 is that many women in the study had already received multiple lines of endocrine treatment (median 3 - 5 previous lines in the metastatic setting, with outliers beyond that), developed resistance and were refractory to all of these treatments, AND progressed, many of whom also received chemotherapy, and these results were for MONOTHERAPY in a heavily pretreated population, which as I determined through examination of historical controls with any other agent achieves at best only 10 to 20% clinical benefit rates - half of that achieved by single-agent abemaciclib, and with responses of short duration.
Hence, the collective results of these trial, including MONARCH 1 (MONARCH-2 (with letrozole) and MONARCH-3 (with fulvestrant) are exceptionally exciting breakthrough in breast cancer therapeutics.
In addition, for me, the overall survival (OS) of these heavily pretreated MBC patients was 17 months, and that compares to historical control I review from all clinical trials to date, as significantly better than other survival results, which are usually are at best 13 months. Thus, consider that for the current champ, eribulin chemotherapy in this setting, the EMBRACE trial achieved a median overall survival (OS) was 13 months, we clearly have here a major advance and improvement in overall survival in the highly challenging later-line settings (past at least 3 lines of therapy).
The major limiting constraint with all CDK4/6 inhibitors to date, like palbociclib (Ibrance), is their most common adverse effect, that of myelotoxicity via neutropenia (low WBC neutrophils), with palbociclib (Ibrance inducing some degree of neutropenia in over half of women on it, with associated dose interruptions and sometimes dose reductions, a toxicity that so fat from the available data seems to also afflict ribociclib.
But abemaciclib (Verzenio) evades a good deal of this because although strictly a CDK4/6 inhibitor, it is more specific in inhibiting CDK4, that is it is CDK4-selective, and myelotoxicity including neutropenia is primarily associated with CDK6, making the incidence of neutropenia on abemaciclib significantly lower and more manageable.
CLINICAL LESSONS ON ABEMACICLIB (VERZENIO)
And unlike palbociclib (Ibrance):
1. abemaciclib has strong single-agent activity in HR–positive MBC,
2. has durable response in later line settings,
3. a good tolerability profile with reduced neutropenia, and
4. to date the highest OS in these challenging heavily pretreated settings of any oncotherapeutic agent, whether endocrine therapy, chemotherapy, or biological therapy.
1. The ESMO-reported MONARCH 3 Trial found an response rate of 48.2% for all patients, BUT for the subgroup of patients with measurable disease, a response rate (ORR) of 59.2%, these being the highest ever response rates achieved to date for ANY endocrine therapy in breast cancer.
2. And although data needs to mature further for survival outcomes, it is anticipated based on exploratory analyses that PFS will weigh in at an improvement of close to 12 months, again an extraordinary gain.
3. In addition, Verzenio was most effective in challenging populations like those with visceral metastases (especially liver) and those with rapidly recurrent (short disease-free-interval (DFS)) patients.
4. Finally, 16 patients across two of the three MONARCH trials were NED (complete response (CR)), likely to increase once the MONARCH-3 data matures, more still I anticipate when results are reported from the MONARCH PLUS and other trials.
DIARRHEA AND ITS MANAGEMENT
To put the adverse events into a bit of perspective, although it is true that with Verzenio, all-grade diarrhea was between 86 - 90%, yet serious (Grade 3+) incidence was 13 - 20% but this is aggregated across the trials, and note further that diarrhea incidence is concentrated during the first month, and more narrowly the MTO (median time to onset) of the first diarrhea event was 6 days, lasting a median duration of just 6 days for Grade 3. Furthermore, for the most recent MONARCH-3 RCT, grade 4 diarrhea was zero, and grade 3 diarrhea was just 9.5%.
An aggressive proactive regimen of:
- high-dose loperamide/Imodium (4 mg but NOT ever de-escalated down to 2mg (and up to 16 -32 mg daily);
- "Big Pink" (Petpto Bismol Extra Strength) used in "priming" mode (started on day 4 and also used for immediate relief during loperamide dosing;
- budesonide (Symbicort) for recalcitrant cases;
PLUS "adjunct interventions:
- high-dose probiotic (28 billion microorganism count in two divided doses), and
- electrolyte powder (most of the refractory diarrhea was analyzed to be secondary to disturbed microflora and electrolyte imbalances)
- at least 12 8 oz glasses of fluid daily, 8 of which should be electrolyte-enhanced
brought the rate of diarrhea-related drug omission or dose reduction down from 22% (MONARCH 1 and 2) to under 1 - 2% in the cohorts run by my research teams in India and the Middle East.
NOTE: We found that the adjunct interventions of Big Pink, high-dose probiotic, electrolyte rebalancing, and assured fluid intake were at least important as the conventional agents, and in cases that seem intractable, converted to success, given that therapy-driven diarrhea inevitably causes GI tract flora, and electrolyte, imbalances, aggravated by inadequate hydration. Also critical was "through-and-through" loperamide dosing: 4 mg at each episode, but NOT de-escalating - as current protocols do - down to 2 mg after first (that de-escalation regimen we found indifferently effective, with large numbers of failures.
And although not reported to date, I note that in the MONARCH 3 trials the incidence of ANY grade diarrhea dropped to just 2% (courtesy of data provided by Levi Garraway at Lilly).
ACTIVITY IN LOBULAR CARCINOMA
The trials largely fail to report to date differential invasive-type stats, but the impression from conversations with some principals is that lobular breast cancer subjects are unlikely to experience significant decrement, and I also extrapolate from some hints surrounding the PELOPS (Palbociclib and Endocrine Therapy for LObular Breast Cancer Preoperative Study) Trial another CDK4/6 inhibitor palbociclib (Ibrance), as well as from some molecular considerations (the p27 gene is a key regulator of certain types of progression (G1 to S-phase) and it appears that lobular carcinomas tend to have higher p27 which in a complex way under contextual effects can have either positive or negative effects on phase progression), but we have to await sub-group analysis to report on this issue explicitly. I am cautiously confidant of little differential outcome, which I think may be confirmed across the general class of CDK inhibitors. In addition, both the lobular and the ductal groups appear to have benefited from the addition of palbociclib (Ibrance) in the PALOMA-/TRIO-18 Trial, but I note that the difference observed in PFS in that trial is likely to be an artificial artifact of the small patient in the subgroup with lobular carcinoma arm (n = 18/19) compared to n = 117 in the ductal subgroup, so this is a small sample size effect not a robust finding, an impression in agreement with that of the principal investigators (Richard Finn and UCLA and colleagues). As we learn more about lobular BC and abemaciclib in particular, I will offer further clarifications.
DEGREE OF DIFFERENCE - IBRANCE v VERZENIO
Given the dramatic 14-fold (!) greater CDK4 activity in abemaciclib (Verzenio) compared to palbociclib (Ibrance) and ribociclib (Kisqali), as MONARCH 3 lead author Angelo Di Leo has established and noted in interview, and other consequent fundamental molecular pathway differences, I view these as only shared-class (CDK), but therapeutically distinct, agents, more like the difference between third-generation capecitabine (Xeloda) versus first-generation 5-FU although these are both fluoropyrimidines.
So: More different than same as witness also the high degree of relative invariance of efficacy and durable response in later-line treatments for Verzenio compared to that of Ibrance (see my original posting, above). These differences are sufficient warrant for me to classify palbociclib (Ibrance) as a first-generation CDK inhibitor, and abemaciclib (Verzenio) as a second-generation CDK inhibitor. The devil - as always - is in the details.
CNS (BRAIN) ACTIVITY
We have preclinical data [Raub et al. Drug Metab Dispos. 2015] of the cross-BBB (blood-brain barrier) capability of Verzenio, as witness the remarkable benefit in GBM (glioblastoma, being even non-inferior to temozolomide (TMZ), the standard of care in cross-BBB activity, and this although not a human clinical, was an in vivo, not just in vitro, study. And the Dana-Farber JPBO human clinical trial (I3Y-MC-JPBO) under Sara Tolaney is investigating single-agent abemaciclib in patients with ER+/HER2+ brain metastases, where I fully expect clinically relevant CNS benefit to be confirmed, with first phase interim results reported in June at ASCO 2017 showing 2 patients (8.7%) out of 23 having confirmed partial response (PR).
I should point out that there has been some provisional data on palbociclib (Ibrance) having potential cross-BBB activity in brain metastasis, but I hasten to note that strong in vivo data show a 10-fold greater cross-BBB activity for abemaciclib than palbociclib, with abemaciclib brain levels being more efficient at substantially lower doses than palbociclib and also active for longer duration, and finally abemaciclib was active as monotherapy, palbociclib was not.
Finally, as to leptomeningeal metastases, no explicit data bears on this question directly, but as to date all agents active in brain metastases have also been active in leptomeningeal metastases, activity would be expected.
THE ISSUE OF SWITCHING
It remains an open question whether patients who have progressed on or after another CDK inhibitor like palbociclib (Ibrance) may derive significant benefit from continuance of CDK4/6 inhibition by using a following CDK inhibitor like abemaciclib (Verzenio), with many in-progress trials like TRINITI-120 (and NCT0185719319 and NCT0263204521, among others) exploring the issue. But there is some plausible extrapolation from some preclinical data which has suggested non–cross-resistance among CDK4/6 inhibitors. A Barts Cancer Institute study reported at SABCS 2016 found that some palbociclib(Ibrance)- and ribociclib(Kisqali)-resistant cell clones were sensitive to abemaciclib (Verzenio).
For patients now on Ibrance (or Kisqali) but who have NOT PROGRESSED , is it motivated to switch to abemaciclib (Verzenio)? This is an issue that needs to be thrashed about candidly with your oncology team and is a highly individual decision, but my own sense at this time is that it may be more optimal in the long run to stay the course, and consider abemaciclib (Verzenio) for recourse upon progression either off-label until the FDA expands its approval, or on one of the many abemaciclib (Verzenio) clinical trials available.
I would however entertain some specialized exceptions in which a switch now, off of Ibrance or Kisqali, onto abemaciclib (Verzenio), might be motivated; for example:
1. If a patient is experiencing repeated difficult-to-manage neutropenia, occasioning multiple drug interruptions or reductions (neutropenia being dramatically less with abemaciclib (Verzenio)), but the patient must weigh the associated countervailing issue of higher incidence - but still manageable I would argue - diarrhea on abemaciclib (Verzenio).
2. If a patient is in advanced later-line setting (say, more than 5 to 7 lines or so of treatment in the metastatic setting already completed), where it is suspected that abemaciclib (Verzenio) may be somewhat more consistent and durable in response and benefit in such challenging contexts. This is a difficult one to judgment-call, and I would tend to want to weigh each patient's circumstance and their complex treatment history and individual pathology to assist in the decision, since we have no hard data to be dispositive on this decision.
Yes, these are arguable and have to be intensively debated (as in a tumor board setting), but they are not wholly unreasonable. Outside of these exceptions, however, I do not see sufficient motivation to prematurely abandon Ibrance or Kisqali, as these have strong track records of efficacy and should be push to progression.
Abemaciclib is currently approved ...
1. as combination therapy with fulvestrant (Faslodex) for the treatment of women with HR+/HER2- advanced or metastatic breast cancer who experience disease progression AFTER ENDOCRINE therapy.
2. as monotherapy for the treatment of women with HR+/HER2- advanced or metastatic breast cancer who experience disease progression AFTER ENDOCRINE therapy AND prior CHEMOTHERAPY in the metastatic setting.
(Z) MO's have latitude to prescribe outside of these indications and there are strong arguments for doing so. My MO appears to have wide latitude to prescribe Abemaciclib and get insurance approval in other settings.
Abemaciclib continues to be available through Lilly's attractive Expanded Access Program (EAP):
which is active and recruiting currently in several US locations (California, Florida, Minnesota, Missouri, Texas, and West Virginia), more being added. However that is for patients who have not as yet progressed on a previous CDK inhibitor like palbociclib (Ibrance), that is, for "switchers" who may want to explore the improved benefits of abemaciclib (Verzenio) over Ibrance (assuming the patient meet the other trial criteria); but not for patients who have already progressed on Ibrance.
In several cases I have known, I counseled that although someone progressed on Ibrance, to reintroduce it after a hiatus of 3 - 6 months, and in many cases this washout appeared to resensitize the tumor cells to Ibrance, which upon re-introduction was newly effective. It is a variant of a trick I have counseled and seen working not infrequently with other agents like capecitabine (Xeloda) where after progression on it, I advised a trial on a new metronomic schedule (low-dose, continuous, daily, capecitabine) and seen again it newly effective despite previous progression, just by this shift I schedule (there is some provisional data for this, but not decisive). But these are beyond convention and reserved for highly special circumstances.
MARKERS THAT PREDICT RESPONSE TO CDK 4/6 INHIBITION
I am not convinced that there is any biomarker - protein or otherwise - that reliably identifies responsivity to CDK inhibitors, and Fabrice Andre of the Institut Gustave Roussy and colleagues, as reported in their presentation at ASCO 2017, were unable to identify any such biomarkers of response: neither Rb levels, p16 protein levels, Ki-67 cell proliferation, CDKN2A, CCND1, nor even ESR1 gene expression, all the usual suspects, and others, had any response-predictive value whatsoever. To date the only established biomarker for response to CDK4/6 inhibitors, remain hormone receptor positivity (HR+). Of course not everyone responds, but response rates remain historical high - and higher than any other treatment to date - and as long as one is HR+, one has the potential to benefit from a CDK inhibitor.
Director, Medical Research, No Surrender Breast Cancer Foundation (NSBCF)
Oncology Reviewer, Current Oncology [journal]
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Jan 12, 2018 11:27AM Cure-ious wrote:
LMWL- Thanks for posting the MORPHEUS trial- it has different arms that include Atezo (immunotherapy) with Akt inhibitor, BRAF inhibitor, or fulvestrant/AI, and I like that there is a triplet combo one can go onto if one does not respond, or has too many SEs, in the trial arm they are assigned. Is already recruiting in some locations, and slated to come to Memorial Sloan Kettering, UCSF, and UCLA, etc
Jan 12, 2018 03:40PM spicedlife wrote:
Alright then Z,
I think I am doing pretty good so far. The nausea has calmed down a bit. I know that when I have extreme anxiety that my stomach is always upset. I either have no anxiety or extreme but that is another topic. Before the mets I was doing so so well....no IBS and was Isleeping through the night. Miy counselor said that I am probably in shock and that is natural considering my issues with a mental health diagnosis. So it would be normal to have anxiety, ptsd, etc. and she said I am the strongest woman she has ever helped and that we will get through this too. ::) If you knew my story that is a big assurance.
I've had one episode of explosive diarrhea. It was yesterday and I took loperamide and I am okay now. The problem is I have no clue what I will do when I go back to wrok on Tuesday. I would never make it the bathroom. I sat on a double folded thick towel the rest of the day. If any of you have ideas please let me know. I have to have a solution to the diarrhea before it happens.
I wonder about some other things that y'all might have some knowledge about:
What do you eat for breakfast? I am not getting any protien w/ bkfst right now so I thougt I would add a half of a scoop of protien powder with water and drink that? It is vegan because I am lactose intolerant. I like to meal prep on the weekends so that I have the best nutrition possible.
How do I fix my sleep? I take ambien and it works like a charm until now. I exercise 30 minutes a day and get good cardio. I keep my room dark, I have an aromatherpy diffuser that I put lavender eo in.I have tried the Calm app and it really helps me go to sleep but I wake up every two hours and I eat. and that is unhelpful.
I forgot to tell you that I now have a sore inside of my mouth and of course extreme dry mouth.
Thank you for listening to me and now I am going to catch up reading your messages for the last few days so that I will be up to date with whats going on!
Jan 12, 2018 04:07PM zarovka wrote:
Shock panic and trauma are pretty the norm after the initial diagnosis and then we get to go through it all again with each progression. Ah MBC, the gift that keeps giving. Pretty much all MBC patients exhibit PTSD signs. My point is that don't let the shock etc itself freak you out and make you more stressed. What's not to be stressed about ... you have crazy growths trying to disable primary organs. At the same time we all eventually get periods of respite from the panic. I hope that being on a cutting edge drug that is best in class may give you some confidence and peace.
They have diapers for that situation. Losing control of one's bowels is common in very late stages of MBC, yet the tougher among us go to wedding etc. wearing diapers. I am going to be hiding in a closet at that point, but Depends and a clean up kit may be one solution to get you through work. As Cure-ious points out, the data suggests that the diarrhea resolves with time. Your gut biome takes time to adjust to this new agent but it appears that it eventually does. I wish I had some time to study what abemaciclib might actually be doing in the gut.
You may be doing the best you can on your own with sleep. Those are all the standard tricks. You might consider asking for referral to a palliative care doctor. It's a specialty that looks at treating these side effects of treatment and they may have prescription meds. However, I am seeing evidence of high levels of stress. The fear and panic may be something you just have to work through. Your counselor may be the best avenue to a good night sleep. I like that lady.
Another reason to see a palliative care doctor is the dry mouth. I don't like dry mouth because I think it is the tip of the iceberg of a larger systemic problem. I had it myself with ultimately serious consequence. It's basically a sign of systemic dehydration. In my cause the cause was very different so I can't help you sleuth the source of this. I am wondering about a drug interaction or supplement that isn't doing what you think it is.
You are doing great with so many pieces slightly out of place. I would start with building some confidence that you are on the track ... because you are. Once you see path forward leading in the right direction, some of these issues will become more manageable.
Jan 12, 2018 05:16PM spicedlife wrote:
Z, thank you so much. You rock! For the I can wear the diaper and by that time my body should have it figured out. I will check out the palliative care. Jenny
Jan 13, 2018 01:45AM JFL wrote:
Spiced life, I work full time and feel for you with the whole work predicament with Abe side effects. I expect to be on Abe sometime in the not too distant future and that is my main concern. I eat yogurt with 2T of flax seed and a banana for breakfast. Flax seed is a good source of protein and can also be added to oatmeal or cereal. That goes for nuts as well. I also sometimes eat a cold cereal called Ezekiel which has a high amount of plant-based "whole" proteins from the sprouted grains it contains.
Z and Cure-ious - I read a disturbing article yesterday about how dietary xenoestrogens, including genistien from soy, can directly counteract the mechanism of action of Ibrance/Femara, in very small amounts. Have you heard about this?!
Jan 13, 2018 02:19AM Cure-ious wrote:
JFL- I posted to this on another thread, basically our bodies are highly depleted of estrogen, and so we should avoid any estrogen-like compounds, which are found in plants like soy (no soy supplements for us) and are also in plastic wraps, microwaving plastic, etc is not a good idea. However, keep in mind that these drugs have huge effects in clinical trials, and the individuals in these trials are eating normal diets like the rest of us. Stay away from environmental estrogens as much as possible, but I think this story is over-blown...
Jan 13, 2018 02:25AM - edited Jan 13, 2018 02:28AM by zarovka
hmm. it's a theoretical benchtop study but it does make sense. we know that ibrance doesn't work as single agent. if the hormone suppression is not working because estrogen is replaced by xenoestrogens then ibrance won't work. the relevance goes beyond letrozol ibrance since keeping estrogen low is a key piece of MBC treatment generally.
that said, xenoestrogens are hard to avoid. possible sources go way beyond soy. it seems you already eat very well. i could clean up my act a bit.
thanks for the reminder.
Jan 13, 2018 02:45AM JFL wrote:
What is so deflating about the article is that it is just another reminder that we have limited control over some of the environmental factors. I do try to stay away from BPA, plastics, pots and pans with coating, etc, but there is no way to fully avoid all these potential pitfalls. I also stopped consuming the isolated soy isoflavones and other potent soy-derived supplements/products after I was originally diagnosed 11 years ago but do still eat soy foods such as miso, tofu and edamame.
Jan 13, 2018 11:49AM - edited Jan 13, 2018 11:58AM by jnprsn
I am on week 2 of Verzenio. Diarrhea, but not terrible. Depression due to progression.
Ibrance treated me well for 2 years. Good luck to all those on or starting Verzenio. My Oncologist told me that a recent study said it was very good for bone mets so that is my hope.
Jan 13, 2018 12:31PM - edited Jan 13, 2018 02:10PM by letmywifelive
Jane - did you switch to verzenio right after Ibrance failed and are you taking it with letrozole or faslodex ? Did you have any trouble getting it approved from insurance
Jan 13, 2018 04:45PM mzr119 wrote:
I have been on abemaciclib and Faslodex for 14 cycles and have done very well. I have had a positive response( between 55-75 %) in shrinkage of liver lesions. This has been my experience with abemaciclib. I have never had 'explosive' diarrhea, but have had some bouts of diarrhea which I have been able to control with Imodium. There is a fine line between taking enough and taking too much which leads to rock hard constipation!! Yes, your body does become accustomed to the drug, and the diarrhea episodes do become less. I experience very dry mouth and changes in taste. The only thing I have found to counteract that is the various rinses and throat sprays. I have discussed this at all my MO appts with her and the clinical nurse who is fantastic with coming up with various ways to counteract it. Not much helps. I am going for acupuncture for the dry mouth and neuropathy (only on the feet) which I have also also developed. I did have a mouth sore and was prescribed a cream that is usually used topically but which I used orally. I don't have the name as I am away from home. It worked quickly, but the sore was already starting to heal. I am also experiencing thinning of my hair. Not sure which drug is contributing to this. I take Nexium daily to counteract heartburn and a probiotic very day. My routine is Nexium, an ordinary breakfast (cereal, corn muffins, eggs, yoghurt) , wait an hour and then take abemaciclib. I wait An hour later before I eat or drink anything again. I don't follow a ritual in timing of doses. I’m actually very casual about it. There are times I don’t get to take the first dose until early afternoon. I take the second dose after 11pm. I check with clinical nurse before adding anything (vitamins, supplements) to my routine. She always checks with the sponsor before giving me the ok. I was never told to wear gloves when handling the pills. I do keep them separate from others I take. When I had to have a minor surgical procedure she checked with them to learn when and for how long I needed to hold the drug. Hope my experience may help some of you as you start this journey. My dosage is 100 msg twice a day
Jan 13, 2018 05:28PM zarovka wrote:
MZR. This is very interesting and helpful and I speak on behalf of many when I thank you for taking the time to detail your experience. Please hang around and keep us updated.
Technically you are on a dose reduction for abemaciclib in combination therapy. Were you ever on 150mg 2X per day?
Jan 13, 2018 06:38PM zarovka wrote:
Constantine has a good facebook page if anyone would like more of his writing. He is good.
Jan 13, 2018 11:23PM mzr119 wrote:
Yes, Z, I started abemaciclib on the trial at 150mg 2X a day as well as the drug LY3023414 st the same dosage. I developed a horrible rash , and the dosage for both drugs was reduced. The rash came back with a vengeance, and it was thought that LY3023414 was the culprit. That drug was eliminated , and I continued with the lower dose of the abemaciclib.
Jan 14, 2018 06:03AM zarovka wrote:
Interesting. Do you have any news on how that trial is doing. It is a drag that LY3023414 gave you a rash. Promising drug. But It is great that you are responding well to the lower dose of abemaciclib.
Jan 14, 2018 01:24PM - edited Jan 14, 2018 01:32PM by luce
So my tumor tested negative for PD-L1 expression and also negative for microsatellite instability. Could there still be any possible benefit in adding Keytruda or another immunotherapy drug to the abemaciclib i am taking? Thanks for any insights into this.
Jan 14, 2018 02:43PM - edited Jan 14, 2018 11:16PM by zarovka
Luce - That is a good question. The relationship between PDL-1/PD-1 expression and response to anti-PD-1/PD-L1 agents is not as high as one would expect. I know a lot of people respond with out PDL-1 expression in their tumors. I believe it is partly because the inhibitors can interfere with receptors on the cells of the immune system as well as the tumor and partly because PDL-1 expression is transient and can depend on cytokines in the tumor micro-environment. The link previous in this paragraph gets into details.
The relationship between low TMB and weak response PDL-1 inhibitors is stronger. When outcomes from anti-PD-1/PD-L1 monotherapy was analyzed (N = 102 patients) they found a linear correlation between higher TMB and favorable outcome parameters; the median TMB for responders vs. non-responders treated with anti-PD-1/PD-L1 monotherapy was 18.0 vs. 5.0 mutations/mb (P < 0.0001).
Benefit from dual checkpoint blockade (anti-CTLA4/anti-PD-1/PD-L1 combinations) did not show a similarly strong dependence on TMB. It's not clear whether anti-CTLA4 inhibition alone works better a high TMB but there are trials combining anti-CTLA4/anti-PD-1/PD-L1 and since there are FDA approved drugs which act on both pathways, it would seem that one could prescribe the combined protocol off label.
I see that you posted your question on the Abemaciclib thread on Inspire. The people who really understand checkpoint inhibition hang out on a thread dedicated to PDL-1 checkpoint inhibitors... try reposting there. I am interested in the response you get.
Jan 14, 2018 03:13PM luce wrote:
Thank you, Zarovka!
I guess one could try adding Keytruda to abemaciclib since adding it didn't seem to cause any additional side effects. I would like to find a combination that actually has a high(er) chance of actually working, though.
Jan 14, 2018 05:20PM Topaz122 wrote:
I am starting Abemaciclib 150 mg. twice a day today along with Faslodex shots every month. Taken off Ibrance 150 mg. had internal bleeding in February and early December. Other months were on 75 mg. Ibrance with no bleeding. Actually looking forward to the drug as my oncologist is quite optimistic for a lessening of progression of metastatic breast cancer.
Jan 14, 2018 11:19PM zarovka wrote:
Posting the abstract from an article I linked to earlier on PDL-1 expression in tumors and immune cells. Explains why PDL-1 expression on tumor cells is not closely correlated with a response to checkpoint inhibitors.
Antibody blockade of programmed death-1 (PD-1) or its ligand, PD-L1, has led to unprecedented therapeutic responses in certain tumor-bearing individuals, but PD-L1 expression's prognostic value in stratifying cancer patients for such treatment remains unclear. Reports conflict on the significance of correlations between PD-L1 on tumor cells and positive clinical outcomes to PD-1/PD-L1 blockade. We investigated this issue using genomically related, clonal subsets from the same methylcholanthrene-induced sarcoma: a highly immunogenic subset that is spontaneously eliminated in vivo by adaptive immunity and a less immunogenic subset that forms tumors in immunocompetent mice, but is sensitive to PD-1/PD-L1 blockade therapy. Using CRISPR/Cas9-induced loss-of-function approaches and overexpression gain-of-function techniques, we confirmed that PD-L1 on tumor cells is key to promoting tumor escape. In addition, the capacity of PD-L1 to suppress antitumor responses was inversely proportional to tumor cell antigenicity. PD-L1 expression on host cells, particularly tumor-associated macrophages (TAM), was also important for tumor immune escape. We demonstrated that induction of PD-L1 on tumor cells was IFNγ-dependent and transient, but PD-L1 induction on TAMs was of greater magnitude, only partially IFNγ dependent, and was stable over time. Thus, PD-L1 expression on either tumor cells or host immune cells could lead to tumor escape from immune control, indicating that total PD-L1 expression in the immediate tumor microenvironment may represent a more accurate biomarker for predicting response to PD-1/PD-L1 blockade therapy, compared with monitoring PD-L1 expression on tumor cells alone. Cancer Immunol Res; 5(2); 106–17. ©2017 AACR.
Jan 16, 2018 02:18AM mazie73 wrote:
Wow -- a lot to get caught up with here! Sorry I've been away. We're selling our house and have been busy cleaning things up for potential buyers.
Zarovka: I asked my MO about the rebound effect. She gave me a bit of a perplexed look. She's not heard of it. She told me something else that was really interesting and relevant -- and I completely forgot. This happens when I don't write things down. As soon as I remember, I'll post it.
I've been considering seeing a nutritionist to figure out if there's anything I can do to help with gut issues and make sure I'm eating properly. I'm kind of bothered by the fact that Eli Lilly doesn't know what exactly causes diarrhea. I was never warned what not to eat. I had to figure it out myself. Might be a good idea to keep a detailed food diary.
I think a couple people have brought up mouth sores. I just use Biotene. Worked great for chemo and works now, too.
mzr119: I'm also taking LY3023414. I got a bad rash (like hives) but chalked it up to soap. The rash went away. It comes back every now and then, mostly on my hands and arms, but it's pretty minor. The most serious side effect was a drop in my phosphorus levels. They reduced my dosage and gave me a prescription for Phospha.
Really, overall, I'm doing great. I feel so fortunate to be feeling this well, given the diagnosis. A year ago at this time, I had a pleural effusion, a tumor pressing up against a heart valve, a broken rib and was in constant pain. Now, all lesions and tumors have shrunk or disappeared and my CA153 has gone from 800+ to 60. I have a scan in three weeks and will let y'all know how that goes.
And, Z, promise to try remember that comment from my MO
Jan 16, 2018 11:53AM zarovka wrote:
Mazie - Thanks for checking in. I strongly encourage you to get help from a specialist like a nutritionist on the gut issue. Oncologists and pharaceutical companies have no training or interest in diet and gut health. Absolutely critical yet not what they do. Interested as always in what you learn.
I am waiting to see a paper before I believe the rebound effect.
Mostly I an thrilled to find you doing so well.
Jan 16, 2018 04:10PM booboo1 wrote:
My Onc told me that Verzenio wouldn't work because Femara/iBrance didn't work for me. Aren't these drugs in different drug classes? She did say she had to look into this, but I was surprised to hear it given that many of you are on it and some of yo had no success with the combo Femara/iBrance.
I'm beginning to wonder if I should look for another Onc..
Jan 16, 2018 05:21PM luce wrote:
disappointed to report that on day six on abemaciclib--today--like clockwork, explosive and watery diarrhea started. very unpleasant. i'll probably opt for a dose reduction over immodium. i am not comfortable with opioids of any kind. and i'll never ingest anything the color of pepto-bismol.
i'm not really sure why i am on abemaciclib anyway, since my life-expectancy is less than the response-time.
Jan 16, 2018 05:31PM zarovka wrote:
booboo - abemaciclib is the same class of drug as ibrance - it's a CDK 4/6 inhibitor. but there are a lot of reasons to keep it as an option on the table. ibrance doesn't work if the hormone suppression is not work, so you don't know whether letrozol failed or ibrance failed. abemaciclib was effective as a single agent and therefore not necessary dependent on hormone suppress. you might try abemaciclib with faslodex or alone. Or you might try an entirely different class of drug for now if you need to be confident that you will control the cancer now. It doesn't take abemaciclib off the table for later.
Luce - Rats. Your choice whether to soldier through the side effects or not. Very personal business these decisions. Always here to chat. Hugs.
Jan 16, 2018 07:22PM mazie73 wrote:
Luce: are you eating raw vegetables?
Since I'm on a three-drug combo, I don't know what drug is doing what, but I had a response within a month -- pleural effusion cleared up. I encourage you to hang in there! It should get better.
Jan 16, 2018 09:32PM - edited Jan 16, 2018 11:23PM by luce
mazie: thanks for your reply! (zarovka: ditto!) no raw vegetables today.
so glad your drugs took care of your effusion; i currently have a 2+ liter effusion on my right and did before on my left (that one was fixed with a pleurodesis a year ago), so i know how unpleasant they are. i suspect yours responded to the faslodex. at least that's what my oncologist told me, that estrogen blockers would probably help. i am using abemaciclib as monotherapy, though, and have read it takes between 3.7 and 7 months to respond!
update: i just asked my oncologist what likely worked on your effusion, and he said probably the targeted therapy. since i don't want endocrine therapy, it won't work for me.
Jan 18, 2018 01:16AM mazie73 wrote:
Luce: Just curious why you don't want endocrine therapy?
And, add dried fruit to the list of foods not to eat. Sigh. That one should have been obvious. I took a bag of trail mix with me to run errands today. Won't be doing that again.
Jan 18, 2018 12:46PM luce wrote:
Mazie: Tried endocrine therapy and didn't tolerate it. I value quality of life over quantity with joint pains and fatigue. Frankly, I think it's barbaric, blocking a woman's body's estrogen receptors (for the most part). I am very angry that after 40 years of Tamoxifen, there isn't any endocrine therapy yet that only blocks the cancer's receptors.