Is anyone else an atheist with BC besides me?
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Cookiemonster, what a wonderful question. Sounds like a perfect opportunity to share what you cherish about your own birth traditions, and "visit" other situations to give choices as he grows: I have always loved Quaker Meeting, and Ethical Culture, and Unitarian Universalists, and the, can't remember what they're called now ( Arimidex, 5+ years;-) Jewish groups meeting in home instead of temples, Buddhist sangas always welcome visitors.
I think "family" reading of different traditions would be opening too. Good luck.
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Lisa - be sure to let us know what docs say. The times when I've not been mobile for various reasons were SO difficult. Really hope this is a phase for you, and will heal quickly.
Good to hear acupuncture has helped others too. I never would have thought of it if someone hadn't suggested it to me.
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somehow this was removed from my favorite topics and Ihad a heck of a time finding "us" again
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Cookie, My daughter announced on our way home that Jesus rose from the dead. My DH turned around and said, no he stayed dead. We immediately joined the Unitarian Church and attended the first (athiest/agnostic) service on Sundays. Our daughter is Buddhist and our son is athiest.
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My father was very anti organized religion. I don't know if he was an athiest or not but he was very opposed to any church. Never the less, he encouraged me to visit different churches and to learn as much as I could about different religions. We had many discussions starting with a question from me and an answer from him that started "well many people believe..." We were raised to respect the beliefs of others, while maintaining a skeptical attitude. Drove my Aunts nuts (they were all raised in the "saved by faith alone" tradition)
He dealt with Santa and the tooth fairy the same way. "many people say Santa delivers..." then we'd either follow the tradition, or not as we pleased.
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oooohh...I wish I'd grown up in Cindy's family
Wren - wise, so wise
BTW, I'm with your DH. 0 -
Cindy, that sounds like my stance with my boys. I told them Santa was a myth but they didn't know what a myth was. Later we discussed the implications of telling their friends the truth and they agreed to not say anything that would shatter the illusion. I also discussed the positives and negatives of different religions and the lack of any proof so they were able to take an objective view of any religion they were exposed to. They're generally respectful of other's beliefs though there's plenty of debate around some of my new age/spiritual/Buddhist type interests which I'm not at all tied to. Science changes all the time and I'm open to new explanations. None of us know what if anything happens after death and I like to consider anything that makes sense. As my eldest says, a good scientist never says "it's impossible" unless they're talking about maths. Everything else is a theory.
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Interesting to see how we all deal with what to say and do with our kids vis a vis religious versus not upbringing, Cookie. In my household, like many of the fellow doubters/adventurers on this thread, is a mixed one. My DH is Jewish, bar mitzvahed brought up in a household which marked all the Jewish holidays and high days, but I think did so more from a cultural/social perspective rather than a convinced religious one. My mother-in-law, for instance, doesn't believe in god but does believe in an after-life, and 'speaks' to her husband who died well over 30 years ago, convinced that he hears her and helps her out in her life in strange and mysterious ways. I was brought up in a Catholic household in a VERY claustrophobically Catholic country, and was sent to a convent school....unsurprisingly I rebelled in my teens and never went back to the fold.
When we had kids we did nothing for a long time...but on our return to Malta after several years abroad we eventually decided to baptise the kids and they received their Holy Communion and confirmation, going through religion lessons at school and the local cathecism classes which prepared (indoctrinated) them. We have never had any regrets as basically we did it because we believe that organised religion plays a very strong social role, especially in such a small country as Malta where ALL ethnic Maltese kids are baptised and so our kids were really happy to 'join the club' aged between 6 and 12 more or less. We always spoke openly about our own views, but tried to instill the idea of respect for others and different ways of thinking. Having had the full Catholic religious experience it was up to them to accept or reject it, but when they did reject it, (1 atheist, 2 agnostics) it was from a position of knowledge...they knew what they were giving up and why they were doing it.
I have no problems with Santa/tooth fairy/miracles....what's wrong with a bit of magic? And I must say I do enjoy the rituals of religious celebrations. In my 20s I lived in Tunisia for a number of years in a town next to the main port of Tunis. In the past it had been a very tolerant community of different nationalities as Moslems, Jews and Chrisitans lived peacefully side by side...and people said that in the years preceding the troubles in the Middle East in the 70s, all communities celebrated all the feasts and holy days, so it was a town full of festivals, processions, special feasts and meals celebrated by all...
Sorry, went on for far too long! Have a great weekend
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My only problem with Santa and his cohorts is parents lying to kids. I'm all for Easter egg hunts and the excitement of presents under the tree, but you need to (imho) do it without telling kids it's OK to lie. Of course that's Dad too. He didn't do even the little white lie, but when cornered he would evade or misdirect on a rare occasion.
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Maria, You said a KEY word for me, tolerance. Fundamentalism so rampant today makes life so difficult many of us. Politically, it's toxic. In the States, a country BASED on compromise, intolerance is tearing us apart. Think it comes from what we used to call "religion" but also think it's deeper more complex than that. Intolerance, fear of difference. Sad.
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I don't think Santa is a lie - it's easy to explain it as a spirit of the season. My children knew from I don't know what ages that parents help Santa. My daughter continues that with her children. My thinking is that giving them an education so they can make their own choices is the best route - both informally at home including tolerance and kindness and formally at whatever program they want post highschool.
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What a great thread--and so many wonderful comments. I wasn't raised with any particular religion. It was "important" to my parents, but they never attended church. I used to run away from Sunday School and vacation Bible school still shivers me timbers. I ran away from them all of the time. My mother would plant me in the room, and within an hour I was back through the front door. It took moma few years, but she finally stopped forcing me to go.
When I was 13 I got inspired, somehow, and became interested in the LDS church. I actually converted then and remained active for some time, but when I graduated from high school and entered the world, its teachings weren't consistent with real life or that of a young woman who wanted a career and independence. I eventually let it fade away. And when I went to college and graduate school (history major) religion was (for me) exposed as the sham that it is.
What I rely on to see me through this is philosophy. I have always admired Stoic philosophy and its matter-of-fact view of the world. Its not for everyone, but I love to read The Meditations by Marcus Aurelius. It never fails to center me in the moment and see the bigger picture.
When I learned that I will probably have to have chemotherapy, I experienced the real fear and anxiety of the diagnosis. But I picked up my man Marcus and read away. I got centered again, realized that as long as I have my mind, my intellect, my reason, that I will be able to deal with this. I prefer action to hope, transparency to opacity, and the bottom line to fuzzy platitudes. I realize that this is not for everyone. I wrote a lot about this here: http://thesarcasticboob.wordpress.com/2012/08/02/affirmations/.
Thanks for letting me join in. It's really a great thread.
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Thanks to all of you for sharing your experiences so far. I'd love to hear more, of course!
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We lived in spain for 4 years and they did not have Santa but the 3Kings Day in Jan. It was difficult to explain how Santa visited the American kids but the
Kings did the Spanish kids.0 -
I was very angry with my parents for lying to me about Santa. I was torn about it as a parent. I let my kids know Santa was pretend, but that it is fun to pretend, so we could pretend together. As far as religion went, there was none, so I cannot comment on that, except to say that I have always felt a void in my life that seems to be filled for many by the social network that comes from belonging to a church, synogogue or similar group. I haven't finished wrestling with that one...
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CLC,
Just because there are those who belong to a religious group, it doesn't mean that they have all their voids filled either.
You have the same sun that they do. The important thing is to turn your face to it. I think if I were to worship anything, I would worship the sun and the moon.
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notself...your post made me smile...thank you...:)
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notself ... you are so right the sun and moon are worthy of worship...
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Hello Scorchy, I know almost nothing about the Stoics and have never read Aurelius, so thanks for bringing them up. Always interesting references on this thread. I tend to feel the same as you when it comes to positive affirmations of the kind where you look at youself in the mirror and keep telling yourself what a lovely person you are/how well you're going to get/how beautiful life is
I have found that practising mindfulness has helped me more than anything in this cancer experience.CLC you would feel very isolated in a religious congregation if you didn't have blind faith. When I hear some of the banalities expressed in the sermon on the rare occasions I go to church (funerals and weddings), it confirms to me that "losing my way" has actually helped me find my own personal road. And re Santa I never lied directly, but I suppose you can say I lied by ommission, but I think kids are capable of half believing and not asking because they want to carry on believing in the fantasy. A bit Jesuitical I agree, but I was brought up a Catholic after all! Have a nice day, I'm off to the beach
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Maria_Malta...Indeed, I would feel very alone in a religious setting. I have searched long, high and low, for some kind of network of like-minded folk for social connection for my kids and me. But, I have never found it. It is a frustration, as a tradition of solitude in my family moves from one generation to the next. I believe that those folks that reject the religion within which they were raised, but continue with it for tradition for the sake of their children, are acting very understandably.
Religion could never fill that void for me for just the reasons you lay out, Maria. But it doesn't change the reality of the void.
The void I feel has moved from the personal to the parental. It is a heritage that carries some sadness with it. What is fascinating is that when I come to crisis moments, like breast cancer, I feel no solitude. I have my own very strong, personal network. This is more about heritage and tradition of social networking that many take for granted.
I think notself hits on something very key here. Our family has traded the void of personal meaning for the void of social network. I will never be able to carry on superficial interactions...they are so meaningless to me...and yet that is precisely the thing that religion has provided so many of those folks I see that have something I wish I could attain.
Some wise person once said that the grass always looks greener on the other side of the fence. Notself so rightly reminds me that it is not....it is the same grass, sun and moon.
I hope you all are having a good night...
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This has to be the most fascinating thread I've ever read. Scorchy, I tried to get to your blog but it said it didn't exist. It is sarcasticboob.wordpress.com, right? I would truly love to read it. I had so many comments on various posts but after reading the last 2 pages, there are just too many so I will just say I love an intellectual discussion on religion and/or politics. Too often, you have to walk on eggshells around religious people, especially now, here in the US. You can never say what you really believe. I believe this country is being ruined by the religious right who have taken over the Republican party. Jesus supposedly preached peace and love for all, he fed the hungry and helped the poor. They preach hate, non inclusion, and support of the rich. Even if I did believe in organized religion, this would not be what it would look like. I like the idea of believing in the sun and moon. It makes more sense then a man in the sky with rules and severe punishments for those who don't obey.
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If you a yearning for a congregation for the community aspects of belonging to a congregation, you might investigate Unitarian Universalists... no affiliation, but if I were to join up, I'd think I pick them.
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Fundamentalism not only in the US but everywhere you look in the world, not restricted to any one religion either. Intolerance and exclusion. Frightening stuff.
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bevq49: The blog is thesarcasticboob.wordpress.com (I omitted the article!)
CLC: That void is a very real and palpable one. In the end, though, we're the only ones who can fill that void for ourselves. Easier said than done, I know, but it's a process. I think voids of different stripes wax and wane throughout our lives and often catch us unaware.
Before my diagnosis I thought that I relied too much on social networking in lieu of face-to-face relationships. I'm busy, I don't always have the opportunity to travel and spend time with my friends (it's a pain to live on the island of Mannhattan because getting off the island and to points west and south can be pricey). But then came the diagnosis. I have received cards, baked goods, hand-spun gifts and sincere well wishes from friends on Facebook that I have never met (friends of friends and daughters of friends). My family? Apart from my mom's stalwart support, no one (nephews) has said a word save my sister, and she doesn't want to engage--she just says "Oh, everything will be fine."
This is why I turn to philosophy to soothe my soul. It doesn't always soothe my soul, but it helps me center myselfso I can deal with the things that get my pantyhose in a bunch. (ouch!) And with BC the wheat was separated from the chaff quickly and definitively.
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CLC
such an interesting question: How do we create community with shared values, traditions, without a religious focus. Can see how it is especially important with children. No answers, but I do sense it's a question many people are asking. Echo the suggestion, seriously, of the Unitarian Universalist church - always a warm, welcoming place whenever I've visited.
Understand the personal responsibility for dealing with sense of "void" - but think as a parent, it's also important to to ask the questions you're asking. Don't think the "family" can fufill all the functions today, without the support of other aspects of community. Has become almost trite to say "it takes a village" - but it still resonates for me. Work, school, home have become so challenged to fill all the needs of raising children.
Scorchy - loved your blog, and your posts here.
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Hi everyone..ready to go boating today with somr friends (their boat).. I guess I have never felt that void. I have moved often all my life so that sense of belonging has never entered my mind.
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scorchy, i am not nearly finished; in fact, just at the beginning but just got up to "10 things to do with a bottle of tamoxifin".... I am laughing out loud (or lol as the young folks would type it).... you are brilliant and so damned funny....I can't wait to read more.
Regarding the void..... In my lifetime, I have really felt it (63 now)... I attributed it to the fact that I grew up with no religious training and I was missing that. In the last several years, I've read books by Hitchens, Dawkins, Stanger, etc. and I realized the void had nothing to do with religion. You fill that void with family and friends, loving nature and people and doing things you enjoy with people you enjoy being with. I really tried to believe - I actually started studying with "Jews for Jesus".... Oh boy, what a contradiciton that was. If you're a jew, jesus is NOT the son of god....If you accept jesus, you are not a jew - but I did try. I had a relative who was a Jehovah's Witness and for a short time, I studied with her (40 years ago).. Needless to say, I never saw the light lol... Funny side story, many years ago, I went to buy a used car. The seller happened to be born again. During our test drive, he started "preaching". He had me repeat after him "I accept Jesus Christ as my Lord & Savior".... He kept asking if I "felt" it yet.... Being the passive, wishy washy person that I am, I actually went along with this. I never "felt" it but in order to have him stop, I fibbed lol... Anyway, I got a good used car at a fair price and he got even more - he believed he converted someone.
I love community and the idea of "the village"... I just need evidence before I believe in something. I would definitely be open to Unitarian Universalists. I somehow remember an aunt and uncle and cousins who followed but sadly, I did not investigate at the time....
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Hi Everyone,
I'm new to this topic but find this interesting. I was brought up pretty Catholic. Mass every Sunday, catholic school etc. I chose to leave it all behind at about age 14. However, I have found that people who have no religious background do seem to feel a spiritual void and often look for some sort of organized religion or belief system later.
The good thing about catholic school was that there was a great emphasis on personal values and character. I never recall any instances of bullying etc going on as those nuns would never turn a blind eye to that sort of cruel behavior. And it was dealt with quickly. I never saw a nun hit a kid although I know they did in the generation before my own! lol. But they were very effective disciplinarians. And boy, could they teach too. i'm very grateful for the great education they gave me.
I don't feel the need today to be part of an organized religion as I feel they do more harm than good. BUT apparently most of us do share a need for some sort of spiritualism which we can reject if we choose to, but with none to fall back on, some people feel lost. This is just my own observations, of course.0 -
I know that for me, the void is not spiritual. I have a very clear understanding of my place in the universe and how I relate to all I find around me. In general, I appreciate life and accept death. I have a clear ethical framework that I try to live by. I believe I generally do okay with that. Any forays I have made into religion have made me feel that there was someone trying to tell me how to think about all that, and it conflicted with all that I operate under.
My void is a social one. I wish that I had a strong network. I did try the unitarian universalists...but, alas, I felt just as socially outcast there. Sometimes, I think that I am too demanding of my social interactions...I expect honesty, kindness, respect, and maybe something interesting to share... Like I said, I continue to wrestle with this one!!
Thank you all for your kind words and thoughtful suggestions... You are a great bunch of folks!
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CLC - it sounds like you need a group of like minded individuals to hang out with. I'm very lucky that I happened into that group when I was in college, it was the college's science fiction, fantasy, and gaming club. The majority of people with whom I socialize are from that group, we no longer attend the school, but the social group has held together quite well. I bet you might be able to find a group, but it'll definitely take some time and work to do so and for us introverts, it can be challenging (I don't know if you're an introvert or not, but I know that I am).0
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