Is anyone else an atheist with BC besides me?
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I'm so glad to see this thread active again. I celebrate being with family, but the rest of the trappings get on my nerves after a while. It's been a long 2 months. (My neighbor did cut off the Christmas carols on the loudspeaker on New Year's Day.)
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Great reading! Thanks, Anne and notself!
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Thnaks for the reading, ladies. Nice to see some life here. I've had it with Xmas, but I do like the pagan parts - the solstice, the need for lights and greenery, and connectedness to family & friends. As for the the big commercial orgy - I hate it. Spent xmas morning on my shift at our humane society, which is actually, I now realize, a kitten & cat orphanage, and we are all crazy cat ladies! Love it! Here & now. One comment after the article said "spiritual but not religious" is psychobabble. I disagree. I do think I'm atheist, spiritual, but not religious which, to me, implies belonging to some sort of pack or tribe whose rules you agree to follow. Another comment said "jesus was religious. tolstoy was religious. ghandi was religious. great men all". I couldn't agree more (except I wouldn't have used the word "religious". I would have said deeply understanding of reality, or, even "spiritual". Just my take.
In my life there is nobody i know who even goes to church. so there is no sense of relief or coming out. Every person I know is agnostic or atheist. and, as i continue to say despite my utter lack of belief in a god-figure "thank god".
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flanellete...glad to know I am not the only atheist thanking god...lol
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Flannelette, I'm happy to meet another crazy cat lady. I'm on the cat team at our city animal shelter and have a foster cat. I think I may have gone too far. I read a headline in the news online that said 'how to pick a litter for your cat'. My immediate thought was, why would you take the whole litter instead of just picking out a kitten and introducing it to your cat? When I read it, I realized it was about litter boxes. It still strikes me as funny.
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wren - hahahaha - at our shelter there was once a cartoon on the bulletin board. A dishevilled? kind of woman was standing in front of a desk. another one was behind it.
There were cats everywhere. The one behind the desk was saying to the other - "...no....you don't have to be a crazy cat lady to work here....but it helps." Cracked me up every time. that's why I'm so happy there - surrounded by cats and crazy cat ladies.
I wash dishes and make tea. sometimes there is a cat bed in the middle of the table for our more geriatric cats. We look after them forever. I feed them a bit of cheese from my lunch. Life is good.....our e-newsletter, which I write, is called Power to the Paw.
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Jumping in here now as I am new to the board.
This is my story.
8 months ago my Brother in law, who is for all intents & purposes my brother , was diagnosed with stage 4 esophageal cancer. His wife was pregnant with their first child, although he has a 17 year old son by another relationship.
We knew exactly how bad this situation is. This also pushed me to get my mammogram done, because there is long history of breast cancer in my family. I refer to this as him saving my life. I was diagnosed with stage 2 breast cancer. My prognosis is good.
I am an atheist, and a skeptic, I need more than anecdotal evidence to accept a "cure" or treatment. I am not open to "sending of good energy" or any of the other esoteric un-provable things people want to inundate you with the moment they hear you are sick. In general I have found it is far more about those people getting "warm fuzzies" about how much they are doing than it is about making you better/feel better, this is not ALWAYS true but often enough to get my dander up when approached by it.
My brother was not the same. Granted he was facing a life ending cancer, there was no one in the medical community who would tell him the had an answer that could cure him. That is simply because at this time, it just doesn't exist. Instead he was taken advantage of (in my opinion) by sometimes well meaning but often charlatans who promoted everything from mistletoe injections, which have no proof of having any more benefit than a placebo, to apricot seed which has been proven to have been a scam of the highest order.
He even traveled to Switzerland... where you can go to clinics who will lie to you about virtually everything, and who will give you "treatments" that are illegal almost everywhere else in the world.
It took me a long time to accept that he had the right to make the decisions he wanted with his body, and I do honestly believe he, and everyone does have that right. But I will also fight tooth and nail to try and stop this kind of parasitic snake oil sales to go un-challenged. If it stops one person from giving up the incredible precious time they might have left with their family, because that is the incredible loss, that and people being left behind who have to still pay the bills for these pseudo scientific frauds who are praying on the desperate and the scared.
My brother died in January.
In trying to find any support group for my own grief, and dealing with my own illness, ( partial mastectomy, 6 rounds of chemo therapy, and upcoming 6 weeks of radiation) I have found that there appears to be no where to go for group counseling that is not hip deep in woo. All of them offer courses in all kinds of "Alternative heath options" and when I suggested that I would not sit silently while someone forced their woo upon me I was informed IF I did that i would be asked to leave. I was informed that "everyone has the right to their own journey" and while I agree with that sentiment I in theory, it seems to negate MY ability to have my own journey. Apparently no one can see that having this forced on me without being able to say "You know that was debunked more than a decade ago" does interfere with MY journey. I am expected to remain in the closet, so to speak, because the possible pain I might cause them is obviously worse than the pain they are causing me.
This has left me quite alone. I was told to seek individual counseling where I could control the person I was interacting with. This defeats the whole purpose of "Group" counseling. It also reminds me that apparently this is the last minority where it is OK to discriminate and suggest you would not be welcome.
I am sorry to be so long, and I hope I have made some sense to someoneI'm going to ask not to be innundted with the I'm not athiest I'm agnostic..becuase I think you need to refamiliarize yourself with that word, becuase I dont think it means what you think it does, or the I'm not athiest I'm "spiritual" becuase again... I'm not even sure what that is suppose to mean anymore. I'm not picking a fight I just do not have the energy to deal with that on top of everything else. I hope that people can understadn my position at this time
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wickeddoll,
The word spiritual used to set my teeth on edge as well, since I don't see any evidence that there is a soul or spirit let alone a god. After many years of being irritated, I have decided that the definition of spiritual should be "wondering at and appreciating the mystery of existence". I believe that this is what most mean when they say "spiritual". Perhaps it is a need to hope that there is something in the universe that cares, that there is more than mere change between matter and energy.
Welcome this thread.
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thanks notself I guess my personal experiences have led me to believe it just isn't going to come to any good when it starts with "I'm not ____ but I'm spiritual" LOL
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wickeddoliz, You make perfect sense. I think I'm lucky to be in a family where atheists are the majority. I take comfort in realizing that death is part of living and has been that way forever (as far as we know). It's hard to lose your bil and worse to see his fear as he grasped at straws. Take good care of yourself.
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Hi all,
I stumbled upon this thread and I am so thankful that I did. The day I was dx, my best friend in the whole world lectured me about jesus and god and handed me a book. The comment was "please read this because I want to see you in heaven with me." I was speechless at first and then I gently told her that I believe in science and medicine.
I live in the Bible Belt so I feel oppressed daily to keep my opinions to myself.
I find it ironic that the settlers of our country were trying to escape religious persecution yet I feel like the majority are now religious fanatics.0 -
Its very ahrd to find any kind of help without some kind of woo being forced on you, at least that has been my experience. People don really get it
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Hi Wicked, What's woo?
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wickeddollz - Sorry you joined our BC "club", and so very sorry that you are not able to be treated the way you need to be. I've gotten a ton of "I'll pray for you", and have decided to just let it slide off me. I don't know what I am or am not anymore, and have come to realize that I really don't care. I let them say whatever they need to say, I guess because I know that they are really saying it for themselves, not for me.
I'm so sorry you lost your BIL.
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wickeddollz - jumping in to say welcome to the "club" nobody wants to join. I'm so sorry for all the pain you've had.
When I hear "woo" - I think of occult, or alternative approaches to well, things. I've learned to find what I need for healing and comfort, and if someone handed me the book you got, especially a close friend, I'd just have to hand it back, with thanks, but explaining "someone will get more use out of it than I will."
I know exactly what you mean when you speak of the difficulty of finding supportive community, with out stong religious tenets, expecially when looking for support with breast cancer. I expect the social worker at the hospital where you are beinging treated would be a good resource for finding some of the kind of support you're looking for. If it exists, I think she'd know about it.
BTW, there IS a great deal of "woo" which helps me: acupunture and massage for a start. Can't wrap what's left of my mind around why ithelps me so much, but it does.
I also find tremendous support in the women in my Art classes, and gardening. Being in Nature. Not directly related to BC, but healing, at least for me. I hope you find the people and places you need now in your life too.
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Wickeddollz,
I tried the support group thing for a while and even did some of the "woo" - massage, acupuncture, guided imagery. As long as you're not expecting miracles, they can complement your treatment and there is some evidence that they help with side effects. At stage 4, I wasn't a good fit with the group, since I'm the person everyone is afraid of becoming. The group that I have found real support from is my weight management class. We have monthly consultations about diet and meet three mornings a week to exercise. There is a lot of good evidence (check www.aicr.org - American Institute for Cancer Research. They have good recipes, too.) that exercising, eating a healthy diet, and losing weight can decrease your chance for a recurrence. In my case, I feel that it has improved my health and supported my medical treatment. But perhaps the greatest benefit has been bonding with a great bunch of women at different points in their cancer journey who don't seem to be bothered by my irreligious attitude and liberal politics. I've even managed to convince them of the potential benefits of Obamacare!
Janet
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Woo woo (or simply "woo") is a derogatory term used by skeptics to describe concepts or beliefs that are based on little or no evidence, or mysterious or unproved forces.
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massage assuming your not talking about healing touch , is fine as far a relaxing a body. Meditation like wise is a useful tool for centering where your brain wants to go.The whole concept of acupuncture which is the balancing of your Chi...which cannot be measure in any real manner any more than your "soul" can is woo...placebos work too, usually right up until you find out it a placebo. I'm also not sure why people feel the need to bring their woo to me when I have explicitly requested and explained in some detail WHY I am not only unhappy to have it but to a large degree repulsed by it now. I assume you would be very happy for me to come to you and explain scientifically why you are wasting your time and money when you have expressed your need to use something?
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"But perhaps the greatest benefit has been bonding with a great bunch of women at different points in their cancer journey who don't seem to be bothered by my irreligious attitude and liberal politics. -Janet"
Janet,
You sound like my kind of friend. I have a massage gift card that I keep on meaning to use. I do want to have a group that I can sound off to an talk with, but down here in the south, everything is about religion and prayer. I'm suffocating. I like talking about the research and the science. I've already read a bunch of the new studies posted on this board.
It gives me comfort knowing and understanding what the terminology means. It makes the process a little less scary. I have my surgery on SNB w/Lumpectomy on Tuesday and everyone I speak with locally is all about praying.
This morning I got up and just listened to the birds chirping outside. It had a calming effect.
-Melissa
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heh the I'll pray for you I can almost ignore really , it's knee jerk for so many like saying "Bless you when you sneeze" or responding "Fine" when someone asks you "How are you today" thank you for allthe lovely welcomes and excuse me if I seem a bit prickly or overly senstivie
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I am finally adjusting to living in the South after years and years of living on the "left coast". I think some of the irritation we feel toward those who are publically religious is due to the current political climate with the attempt of the Right to impose religion on everyone. I often quote Matthew 6 to those who make a big deal of their supposed religious convictions.
“Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven."
“And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you."
Wouldn't it be wonderful if everyone followed this part of the New Testament?
I have started to come to the understanding that people are religious out of personal need. They need to have a feeling of a parent (either a kind or judgmental one) and need to feel that there is something after death. The concept of personal extinction is too frightening to them. Now I try to feel compassion for them and their needs.
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Hi Notself - I love reading your posts. you are such a clear thinker. I so agree with what you said about the reasons for need for religion. and your earlier post about being awed by the mystery of existance. a lovely definition. I feel so lucky to never have to have been exposed to a Bible belt - totally creepy, and so, forgive me, american. But the other reason for religious beliefs, which I think have nothing to do with the kind of people described by Jesus in your quote from Matthew, is actual experience of universal connection =WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! Jesus had it, the Buddha had it, countless people throughout history have had it, "religious" or not.
I had it,once, for a brief moment, and my actual experience was enough to convince me that I am "spiritual not religious". I wasn't high or on drugs or psychotic, either.
Probably most people who go to church have not had it, but they have the need to live in tribal mentality cause it's too lonely otherwise.just my early morning somewhat muddled thoughts....haven't even had tea yet, but i love to go to this thread to see what's up, and we've been quiet for long time.....good morning all
greeting wickeddoll - I do hope you find a way to deal with your grief. but some of us here do have shades of woo...my personal defn of atheist is not believing in the man with the beard on the throne in the sky who created the heaven and earth in 7 days...but beyond that I am open. Not everything in the universe is measurable. that's scientific materialism and I think with the new physics we're kind of moving away from that? just my 2 cents..
Edited to add: the "experience" I mention is simply that of feeling utterly connected to the universe, even being at the centre of it, and it has noting to do with the linear or rational brain. Some people call that 'god". Shamans call it something else. It is expressed in words that are culturally determined. since Jesus was a Jew, he used that language, and I've grown to believe he was hugely misunderstood by many who then used it to create a tribe with a top dog. Not so the buddha. he arrived in a culture that was prime for what he experienced.
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wickeddollz -While I'm open to new experiences, after checking to see if they are possibly harmful, I wouldn't want you to think I would PAY for any of this. Massage, acupuncture, guided imagery, nutrition and exercises classes are all available free at my cancer center. The only ones I've kept up with are nutrition and exercise.
Melissa - Texas is like that, too. I found my way to a Unitarian-Universalist Church more or less in self-defense and to let my kids know that we weren't the only non-believing family in town. Right now, we're building a retirement home in upstate New York about 14 miles north of Ithaca with a superb view of Cayuga Lake. It's been a joy meeting the neighbors, and nobody once offered to pray for me!
Janet
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Notself - another kindred spirit! I feel so welcome here. What a perfect response. I may get brave enough one day to put that one on my FB. Not yet though. ;-)
Right now I just smile and try to get away. Lol.
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Hello, everyone. I have been away for a while, finding myself finally ready to put some space between me and breast cancer. Then this week another woman at work was dx with bc and I wanted to recommend bco, so I return, at least at the moment. The irony for me at this moment is that this particular woman is very very very christian. When I told her that I'd heard her news and that I hope it was okay for me to raise the topic with her, she said something to the effect of "I welcome anyone willing to pray for me" (I believe she knows me to be someone that is not religious and believes there is no place for religion in a public school). Sigh. I did my best to offer all that I could without offending (though she has offended me many a time in the past). I found the links to the threads I thought she would find most helpful and emailed them. I tried my best to be true to my own values of being supportive and understanding of another's own values. Sometimes that can be trying.
Welcome to the newcomers. I am sorry that you have had to take this journey, but you have definitely found a wonderful group here.
I am with flannelette...I always appreciate your posts, notself!
Hoping you are all well.
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Hello everybody, I would like to join this interesting group.
About me: I do have on my fb that I'm an atheist scientist, because there are categories that allow you to enter your various identities such as gender, political affiliation, religious affiliation, etc. I don't talk about it at all unless something comes up that I respond to. I don't wear any kind of emblem that indicates my atheism, like some people wear a cross for example, so it's nothing I feel the need to announce to anyone. I believe everything has one life and that death is the end of that life and the body decomposes into nutrients for the soil. I won't kill anything and I eat no animal products because I believe every living creature deserves to live their life also.
I respect what anyone else wants to believe. However, I'm vehementally athieist internally and won't compromise my beliefs. In school (I'm a public school teacher) I'll stand for the "Pledge of Allegiance" but I won't recite it because I don't believe our country is under god. Nobody has ever asked why I don't join in the recitation, and I don't think anyone cares. In the baseball park I won't stand when they play "God Bless America", as they do now everywhere during the 7th inning stretch, as if it's our country's national anthem. I never get confronted, and it better stay that way because I never confront anyone who stands and removes their hat during the song.
I went to the "Reason Rally" in D.C. last year to hear Adam Savage speak - he gave a talk about how there is someone who watches over his behavior, judges his actions, and upholds his morals, and that person is himself. It was very emotional for me and I'm glad to know that there are those like me, and that they will speak about it when asked to. There were a variety of characters also at the rally, like a guy dressed as Jesus riding a dinosaur, and that type of behavior embarasses me. I don't want atheism to be seen like that by the public. Of course, the media are attracted to interview and photograph those characters. A gay friend of mine says it's the same way at any gay pride rally, the media are attracted to the flamboyant characters.
Well, I really went on there! I've enjoyed reading the thread and will continue to follow. Very nice to meet all of you.
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Wow, nice to see this thread pop up busy again! Welcome to all those new here. I don't mind those who say they're praying for me. I just take it that they care about me and within their frame prayer is what expresses that. I did have a friend consult a psychic once about me and I kind of exploded over that though.
I say the pledge but omit the "under god" part. The most awkward encounter I've had over my non-belief was once when I was with a group of friends grieving over the death of one of our group. Somebody said, "well she is in a better place now." I said, "I don't believe in that," and everybody kind of shut up and stepped back a step from me. We're all still friends, they just had never considered that somebody they are close to and who they consider to be a really good person could be an atheist....kind of funny from my perspective. I'm not usually "in your face" about this and I give money to the local church's food pantry (because that's where the food pantry is and its operations are separate from the church's) so they were a little confused.
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Hi River,
I omit the "under god" part too. It was added in 1954 and was not part of the original pledge anyway.0 -
thanks, again ( and again!) notself - love reading your posts.
riverrat - I remember, in grade school when "under god" was added ( DDE was president when it was added) and I've always "stopped" saying the Pledge at those words.
I'm one of the people who has found healing in acupuncture - and fascinated by the studies being done by several doctors at Harvard Medical School and NIH ( National Institute of Health) about the process. Good results on relief from joint pain, and especially reduction of inflammation. I don't try to "convince" anyone else, unless they ask me how I've managed to keep taking Arimidex for 6 years....then I speak of massage ( the person I see was trained by Tracy Walton, in Boston, MA) and acupuncture.
I don't have a "scientific" filter for any experience - but respect anyone who does. Hope more women find this thread useful.
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Carpe Diem, We did the same thing in Houston. Kids came home from school with the Bible belt stuff and we hauled them off to the Unitarians. As the joke says, Unitarians believe in, at the most, one God.
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