natural girls
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I agree with Ivorymom that surgery gives you the biggest bang for your buck and it is the launch pad for changing the climate of the body to avoid recurrence.
There are few people around who have not had surgery and have slow-growing or no-growing tumors. There was one woman who had a small tumor for 14 years and it finally ulcerated so badly she finally had to get a mastectomy.
The idea of watching something so closely for all those years would drive me crazy.
anom
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Northstar: I'd let your relative figure things out for a while. She may just be in shock and not able to deal with it. I'd probably encourage her to have a lumpectomy which is not that invasive and would at least get the tumor out. But you can only suggest things and you may need to step back and let her find her way.
Take care.
Mandy
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Hi, Mandy, Meg, anom, etc.,
Thanks for helping with this. I do think she needs to find her own way, but she was diagnosed with this in May and was taking Arimedex to shrink the tumor for the lumpectomy surgery, which was scheduled for Oct. 15. Over the weekend she called to let us know that she had decided against any of the usual treatments (including any surgery) and was going to a clinic in Mexico accredited by the Gerson Institute for two weeks (at $5500 per week). Granted, she has a less aggressive form of breast cancer (lobular, Her2 neg., ER +), but she appears to be throwing out the baby with the bath water and keeps telling us that the medical profession is just trying to rip us off, "cut, poison, and burn," etc. I do think she'll probably be able to live up to 4-6 years with no treatment, but I would rather have her live longer than that.
I am all for good diet. I take a ton of supplements and juice regularly (including juice fasts). But I researched all of the medical options and did both surgery and radiation (not chemo since I had a low Oncotype DX). I am worried that she is not paying attention to what is possible today in the way of keeping people with breast cancer alive.
In the end, as everyone says, it is her life, and her choice, and we don't want to alienate her and cut off communication (she is my husband's sister).
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Yes I did have surgery and would not even think of leaving cancer in my body if it can be removed.
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Hi Northstar!
Is she still taking the Arimidex? Is the tumor shrinking? I ask because I know of a breast cancer patient in the UK who was given an aromitase inhibitor and no surgery by the National Health...that was her treatment...they see how she is doing by how the tumor has shrunk. Sounds strange but that is what her national health doctor suggested and so far so good. So maybe your relative will be fine too. I will keep her in my heart and prayers. Each of us has to face this challenge in the way we feel most comfortable.
Mandy
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Hi, Mandy,
I believe that she THOUGHT the tumor was shrinking, but since she never had an MRI, we couldn't figure out how she could know that. I think she's stopped taking the Arimedex now. I understand that some tumors actually do spontaneously regress, but I think those we non-invasive ones. I fear that this tumor isn't going to go away unless there is some surgery involved. Thank you for your kind thoughts. Of course we do want the best for her, and if it gives her peace of mind to do this, then we want that for her too.
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one of my dear friends was diagnosed with IDC 4 years ago, long story short, she declined surgery when a doctor at UCLA asked her if she would try Arimidex to see if it would shrink her tumors (she had 3), within 6 months they were no longer detectable on the MRI, she is 4 years out and doing great. Not for everyone, but everyone has the right to make their own decisions. When it happened, I thought she was nuts, but you have to know her to know that she isn't just brave, and was willing to wait and see what happened. Her regular oncologist thought she was nuts too, the doctors at UCLA are doing a paper on her case.
L
ox
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It does seem to me that the ultimate goal is to stop cancer and reverse it, without having to do surgery. If I had thought there was a reasonable way to do that, I wouldn't have had my lumpectomy either. I don't know what treatment your friend will get in Mexico, Northstar, but I guess it is possible that the answer, or the cure if you will, might finally have been found, and it wouldn't necessarily have to be found here in the US first.
Still, I have to say that lumpectomy felt like the least invasive treatment to me, far less invasive than the radiation that I now wish I hadn't had, and certainly less invasive than chemo or tamox which I didn't. That's just the way I felt. After all, it was just a little melon ball size of flesh scooped out of my boob. I had no problem dealing with that, since I have plenty left.
I send my thoughts to you and your friend that all will be well, whatever her choice.
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Hi, Calypso,
The treatment in Mexico (Gerson) involves drinking freshly-juiced vegetables and fruits 13 times a day, coffee enemas, not eating processed foods, and other natural remedies. I think that this approach is fine, when combined with, at least, surgery. She has already had radiation to that breast (18 years ago, different tumor--DCIS and this one is ILC), so can't have it again, and she doesn't want chemo, which I can fully understand. We are also concerned about the cost vs. the possible benefits, for someone who doesn't have a lot of money to start with.
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I have a question for you lovely ladies! I am having my nipples "done" on Oct 28th, I know the PS is going to say stop all supplements except for the multi, which ones, honesty can I still take? I know fish oil is a big no-no, but do I have to stop the DIM, calcium D etc etc.....
thanks!
Lox
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Hi, Lorraine ~ I had my Stage II Diep surgery yesterday, so just went through the concern re. which supplements to stop. In the end, the only two I totally stopped for 3 weeks were Vitamin E and Fish Oil. A couple of days before surgery, knowing one of its uses is to increase circulation in diabetic patients, my DH wondered aloud about the Metanx you and I both use, so I stopped it then -- just to be on the safe side. However, when I told my PS @ UCLA about it prior to surgery yesterday, he said it would probably help him. About an hour before that I'd reeled off everything I take to an RN -- including the least common, I3C, Green Tea Extract, COQ10 and Curcumin -- and she never batted an eye at any of them.
I also have to tell you that, other than a headache and a bit of dizziness (I'm a terrible lightweight when it comes to anesthesia), I feel great today -- way better than I ever would have thought after a 2.25 hr. surgery. And I haven't needed any pain meds -- just Tylenol. Deanna
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I have the same Q as Lorraine...
Deanna, did you ever get to the bottom of this? I know you were researching it!
Lorraine, I have heard NO to Fish oil and Vit E (2 weeks prior). My surgeon wants to stop everything other than multi, C and Calcium. I am really hoping to find out I don' t need to do that this time...
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Oh Deanna! I am so happy you are feeling good! You too Spring!
we are getting there! Can't wait to get the cherries on the cup cakes tee hee!!!So, just eliminate the fish oil and the Vit E, and everything else should be ok?
L
ox
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Hi, Spring! Looks like we were posting at the same time. How're you doing??? I am soooo happy to have Stage II behind me, and it honestly wasn't nearly as bad as I'd feared. The 2 worst things were trying to get the anesthesia line in. Did you know your veins can be damaged by chemo? Anesthesiologist said mine kept rolling (???). I also have a difficult time waking up from anesthesia, which one of the lovely docs told me yesterday is worse if you normally suffer from motion sickness and sea sickness, which I do. Deanna
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Deanna--so glad the surgery went well!! You must be relieved to have it over with...
Why a stage 2 surgery?I thought fish oil and also vit E were a blood thinners which is a big no-no if you are heading into surgery. To be on the safe side, I would just stop taking everything! You can certainly go a little while without supplements.
I think the reason some drs don't worry about the supplements is that they don't think they do much but since we know they do, it would be wise to research beforehand or just stop taking them.
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You're right, Allie, Vitamin E and Fish Oil are the two most common ones that should be stopped because they thin the blood. I guess the other one to question could be a multi if it has a lot of Vitamin E in it.
Stage II Diep is when they go back and minimize scarring and do a lift (either or both sides) to achieve symmetry, as well as fix the "dog ears" on your tummy scar where the skin kind of wrinkles up over the hip bone. From what I've read here, Stage II seems to vary a lot from woman to woman, depending on how much work is needed. Deanna
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Lorraine, I don't recall that you've mentioned drinking aloe vera juice, but I'm pretty sure I remember reading that it can act as a blood thinner also. I looked up the information at mayoclinic.com where I thought I read that information two years ago when I was drinking aloe vera juice for a while. It has a laxative effect on most people apparently, but for me it was the opposite, plus it worsened intermittent nausea I'd had since chemo. This is information I've shared before, but since excessive bleeding during surgery can have dire consequences, I repeat it every so often, even though I don't know where I read it. could've sworn it was the mayoclinic site.
northstar, I've learned about the gerson therapy enough to know what it involves. I think none of us really knows what we'd do in the face of recurrence until it actually happens. I had a moment last month when I visited with a friend whose stage 1 ovarian cancer has spread. Hers was miraculously discovered as a stage 1 with a 90% survival rate. Now it's back and she's doing more chemo.
I think my reaction to her doing more chemo is on a par with how you feel about your friend going for gerson therapy. So far I have no recurrence, but as I listened to my friend talk about more chemo, I could feel my heart sinking and I heard a voice in my head say loud and clear that I would sell my house and go to mexico for gerson therapy if my beast ever raised its ugly head again. I think also, though, that I have a naive expectation that a recurrence would be like my first time, which was an early stage, non aggressive tumor. I know that recurrences are often aggressively invasive. If you posted the particulars of your friend's dx, I missed it. fwiw, I would probably make the same choice as your friend, if the tumor is a grade 1.
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Found that citation I was looking for regarding aloe vera juice. It was in the sloan kettering site (deni's favorite place! lol)
http://www.mskcc.org/mskcc/html/69116.cfm
It says "Inappropriate use of aloe vera supplements has been linked to thyroid dysfunction (10), acute hepatitis (11), and perioperative bleeding (12). Parenteral administration of aloe should be avoided due to potential toxicities and lack of clinical efficacy in humans."
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Deanna, when I was learning to start IVs, they always took me to the floor where the chemo patients were, because they figured, if you could find a vein on those people, you could find a vein on anybody, so yes, it's true, however, most of these patients were also elderly, so that also contributes to the poor vein problem.
As for the rolling veins, that happens even with young healthy veins, simply means that it's hard to hold the vein still when puncturing it, and that instead of the needle going into the vein, it simply pushes the vein to the side, so then the person doing the puncture ends up having to dig around in there (which causes pain) or stick the patient again in a different spot.
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Best resource I found: http://www.helium.com/items/374651-vitamins-and-supplements-to-avoid-prior-to-and-following-surgical-procedures
DANGERS OF EXCESSIVE BLEEDING
A daily supplement regimen is a great way to stay in the peak of health, but some of the ingredients; garlic, feverfew, ginseng, Vitamins E & K, ginger, gingko, and fish oil, to name a few, can be especially dangerous because they thin your blood and increase your tendency to bleed during an operation.
OTHER DANGERS OF DRUG/SUPPLEMENT INTERACTION
Popular herbal supplements like kava and St. John's wart may cause additional sedation. Ephedra, commonly found in weight loss supplements, is a stimulant that can increase heart rate, cause heart rhythm disturbances and raise blood pressure.
WHAT THEY'LL TELL YOU BEFORE YOUR SURGERY
When you schedule your surgery, you'll have a pre-operative interview with your surgeon and anesthesiologist. They're going to tell you to DISCONTINUE USE OF ALL VITAMINS, HERBS AND OTHER DIETARY SUPPLEMENTS FOR ONE TO THREE WEEKS prior to the date of the operation. The surgical team won't take unnecessary risks and neither should you. You'll be under their care, so follow their advice.
AFTER YOUR SURGERY
Surgery puts huge demands on your body, and following your surgeon's post operative advice will ease your recovery. After the first 24 hours, you should be able to gradually reintroduce your vitamins and supplements with the possible exception of blood thinners. Your surgeon will give you the time frame to follow.
SUPPLEMENTS TO SPEED YOUR RECOVERY
Vitamin A can be an important factor in wound healing, and Omega-3 fatty acids can help with post operative inflammation. Studies have shown that Omega-3 supplements may improve recovery and help to prevent infection following surgery.
Surgery puts enormous stress on your immune system. Selenium and Zinc both play important roles in immune system function, wound healing and infection prevention. A Vitamin C deficiency has a negative impact on immune function. Adequate levels of vitamin C are important for wound healing as well.
Take it slow and always follow the advice of your surgeon.
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"Common herbal medications that can also promote abnormal bleeding include Echinacea, Fish Oil Caps, Ginkgo Biloba and Vitamin E." http://www.awcenter.com/facial_plastic_surgery_MA/medications.html
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http://www.breastimplants4you.com/medicationlist.htm (below)List of Medications to Avoid Before Cosmetic Surgery
This is not a complete list of medications that can cause problems with surgery or anesthesia. Make sure your surgeon and your anesthesiologist have a complete list of all the medications you take. This list must include all over-the counter drugs you take frequently, as well as vitamin and mineral supplements and herbal supplements and preparations.
A
All Advil products, Alka-Seltzer, Aluprin, Aleve, Amigesic Capsules, Anacin, Ansaid, Analval, Anaprox, Anaprox-DS, Anaproxen, Anodynos, Ansaid, APC, Argesic, Arthra-G, Arthralgen, Arthritis Pain Formula, Arthritis Strength Bufferin, Arthropan, Arthropan Liquid, Ascodeen, Ascriptin, all Ascriptin products, Asperbuf, Aspercin, Aspergum, aspirin (of any kind, including suppository form), ASpirTab, Asprimox products, ASA Tablets, Axotal, Azdone, azulfidine products
B
B-A-C, all Bayer Aspirin products, BC Powder/Tablets, Bismatrol, bilberry tablets, Brufen products, Buff-A-Comp, Buff-A Comp No.3 Tablets with codeine, Buffaprin, Buffasal, all Bufferin products, all buffered aspirin products, Buffets II, Buffex, Buffinol, Butalbital, Butal/ASA/caffeine compound, Butazolidin
C
Cama Arthritis Pain Reliever, Cataflam, carisoprodol, cayenne, Cephalgesic, Cheracol, Clinoril, Congespirin, Contac products, Cope, Coricidin products, Coumadin, Cosprin products, CP-2
D
Damason-P, Darvon products, Daypro, Deprenyl, diclofenac, diflunisal, dipryridamole, Disalcid, Diurex, Doan's products, Dolobid, Dolophine, Drinophen, Dristan products, Duoprin products, Duradyne DHC
E
Easprin, echinacea, Ecotrin products, Eldepryl, Emagrin, Empirin products, Emprazil, Endodan, Epromate-M, Equagesic, Equazine-M, etodolac, Excedrin
F
Feldene, fenoprofen, Fiogesic, Fiorinal products, Florgen, Flurbiprofen, 4 Way Cold products
G
Garlic tablets or supplement, Gelpirin, Genpril, Genprin, Gensan, Ghemnisym, Ginger, Gingko biloba, Goody's Headache Powder products
H
Haltran, heparin, Halfprin
I
Ibu, Ibu-Tab, ibuprofen, Ibuprin, Ibuprohm, Indocin, Indochron, indomethacin, Infantol, iproniazid, isocarboxazid, Isollyl
J
K
Ketoprofen, ketorolac
L
Lanorinal, licorice root, Lodine, Lortab ASA
M
Magan, Magnaprin, Magsal, all MAO inhibitors, Marnal, Marplan, Marthritic, Measurin, meclofenamate, Meclomen, Medigistic-Plus, Medipren, Menadol, Meprogesic, methocarbamol, Micranin, Midol products, Mobidin, Mobigesic, Momentum, Monogesic, all Motrin products
N
Nabumetone, Nalfon, Naprosyn, Nardil, nefazodone, Norgesic products, Norwich Extra Strength Aspirin, Nuprin, NyQuil/NyQuil P.M.
O
Omega-3 oil (fish oil), Orphenagesic products, Orudis, Oruvail, oxycodone/aspirin
P
P-A-C, Pabalate, Pacaps, Pamprin-IB, Panalgesic, Panodynes, papaya, Parnate, PediaProfen, Pedrazil, pentoxifylline, Percodan products, Persantine, Persisrin, PetoBismol, Phenaphen, phenelzine, pine bark extract, piroxicam, Presalin, Propoxyphene, Ponstel, Pycnogenol
Q
Quagesic, Quiet World
R
Relafen, Rexolate, Robaxin, Robasisal, Roxiprin, Rufen, Robaxisal
S
S-A-C, Salatin. Saleto products, Salflex, salicylamide, Salocol, salsalate, Salsitab, selegiline, Serzone, Sine-Aid products, Sine-Off products, Soma Compound products, St. Johns wort, St. Josephs Aspirin products, sodium thiosalicylate, Stanback Analgesic, Sudafed, sulindac, Supac, Synalgos products
T
Talwin, Tenol-Plus, Tolectin products, tolmetin, Toradol, tranylcypromine, Trendar, Trental, Triaminicin, Tricosal, Trigesic, Trilisate, Tri-Pain
U
Ultrapin, Unipro
V
Valesin, Vanquish, ViroMed, Vitamin E, Voltaren
W
Warfarin, Wesprin Buffered
X
Y
Yohimbe
Z
Zactrin, Zorprin0 -
Deanna - So glad you have the surgery behind you and you are feeling good! Hope you get the results you are looking for.
Althea - LOL - yes, my favorite place! Funny how on their website they indeed do give the impression that they are somewhat integrative. You will probably find the best info there. None of the doctors that I spoke to there seemed to have that inclination.
Northstar - it is such a difficult decision we all make about treatment. Since she has been through this before, she is probably thinking that she tried the traditional route and it didn't work for her. I'm sure she has given it much thought. The decision can really be agonizing about how to handle treatment. IN the end, as worried as you all are for her, she needs your support. She needs to feel confident and comfortable with her choices. And, to have support behind you goes a long way in the healing process. Please keep us posted on how she is doing!
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Northstar ~ I wonder if your friend has or would consider at least talking to one of the top integrative doctors here in the US, to get an opinion on the clinic she's planning to go to. I figure those docs wholeheartedly believe in combining natural therapies with traditional ones, so maybe they could give a non-biased opinion if she'll be getting top-notch holistic care, or possibly wasting time and money. Dr. Keith Block comes to mind. I'm sure you and she can find information on his website: http://www.blockmd.com/ Deanna0
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deni, I really wondered about the information from places like mayo and sloan kettering on the topic of aloe vera. Both sites had quite a bit of negative information about aloe. I have friends with serious health conditions like cirrhosis of the liver and fibromyalgia who claim great benefits from using aloe vera juice. And of course, all the places selling the juice have great things to say about it. So it struck me as odd that sloan and mayo had some seriously negative things to say about it. Made me wonder if they pretend to be integrative when they're really not. Your experience there confirms my hunch. I just don't know what to believe about aloe vera juice. But just on the off chance that it really does thin blood, I chime in on presurgery questions about supplements with this tidbit because I don't want any of my cyberbuddies finding out the hard way that SK is right, and also because drinking aloe vera juice might escape our own list of things we 'take' as a supplement, since it's a beverage.
northstar, I was just wondering too if your friend is aware of the hippocrates institute in florida? It's expensive also, but at least a bit closer to home. And has she investigated the vitamin C infusions like deni is taking? There might be good options of interest to your friend closer to home.
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Yes, I think it is probably best to steer clear of any supplements there may be a question about taking prior to surgery. Just to play it safe, I stopped everything for 48 hours prior. The IV C drips, vitamin E and fish oil were stopped at least one week prior. I didn't go back on the IV C until over a week after surgery. The other supplements I started again as I felt up to it.
I think the IV C treatments are an important part of my regime. However, if Northstar's friend wants an intensive treatment regime, she is probably doing the right thing by either going to Mexico or a place like Hippocrates. This way she is immersed in treatments for the length of her stay and "trained" on how to move forward. Then, once she goes home and continues her regime, she can start IV C or whatever maintenance regime is recommended to her.
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natural-health-articles/cancer/calcium-d-glucarate-supplement-reduce-risk-cancer-00081.html
This is for all you ladies that are not taking calcuim d glucarate. Very interesting!
Patty
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Hi, Althea, Deni, and others,
I wish that my husband's sister would choose to do both the surgery and complementary, alternative therapy. I do think it would be wonderful for her. And, I think it's pretty well known that surgery does improve your chances of survival more than anything else.
For those who have commented on geography, unfortunately she lives in CA, so it is very easy for her to get to Tijuana and not so easy to get to some of the other complementary therapy places some have mentioned.
Since she is not listening to us anyway, I guess all I can do is to wait and see what happens. I talked to a friend today who knew someone whose sister went to a similar place in Mexico and died two years later. This did not make me feel any better.
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Northstar, I can understand your concern. I can tell you a similar story with a much more successful outcome. I know someone who went to Oasis of Hope in Mexico for intensive treatment. She had triple negative BC. I am not sure if she had surgery or not - I think she may have. But, that is the only conventional therapy she received. She did an extensive treatment at Oasis of Hope and went home to continue with her regime. She is doing fine now. She goes back once a year for a 2 week intensive treatment as maintenance.
There are so many survival stories out there. So many great outcomes. There are so many factors involved. No two people are the same. No two cancers are the same. Your friend may do very well. I would recommend that she have the surgery (especially since it is a lumpectomy - which is the least invasive). She may want to go and try the treatment to see if it helps her and then turn to conventional treatments if she doesn't have success. It seems she is looking for quality of life over quantity. She may get both!
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Northstar ~ Where is she in CA? You know, UCLA has an entire department of Integrative Medicine. It's how I knew I was at the right place when I found them. It was very comforting to know that they didn't poo-poo holistic stuff, but rather believe in it to the point of having an integrative department. Feel free to PM me if you want more info.
As far as someone dying after getting holistic tx, I think too often its used only as a last resort, when traditional medicine can no longer offer any hope of a cure, so the patient is at a point where traditional tx would not have had any better outcome. But just like traditional medicine, I worry when what's offered is a one size fits all approach. D.
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What is the benefit of IV vitamins vs. tablets and capsules?
When I was at my Ostepath's office, I saw people getting IV's. Sort of freaked me out b/c it looked like a friggin chemo suite!!!
any info appreciated. This is new to me.
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i love my vitamin C IVs. the benefit is higher dosage (i get 45 grams) and it gets right into the blood stream. i think i have survived surgery, rads and chemo due to my holistic care. if i could do it again i would skip the rads but cant dwell on should haves. my insurance covered up to $750 in holistic care which of course is not enough but it did help. i didnt even know they had a holistic benefit until i called them. always worth asking. i love my IVs (the vitamin ones, not the chemo ones!)
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