Why was I stronger DURING treatment than I am now?
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Boy a tough place. I knew of a therapist who told her couple at war that they could ONLY say what they liked or appreciated to each other for four weeks, with weekly sessions in between to see if there was enough left for them to stay together...........
I do think emotionally illiterate men lie to get out of challenge or facing themselves. VERY frustrating for us...... And we lose respect for them........no easy answers.
Where will you get support if you go it alone? What would happen if you calmly said in your next session that you cannot live with a compulsive liar anymore as its too stressful and your focus is on staying alive?
Can you focus on yourself living with him and get an agreement about money with him in therapy? And create a secret escape fund for yourself on the quiet?
I feel for you......send you big hug...0 -
Timbuktu, a couple of decades ago I came close to marrying a man who turned out to be a pathological liar. He was not only engaged to me but to someone else at the same time...and cheating on both of us! Nothing pisses me off more than being lied to.
I wish I had some advice on how to turn the situation around...but I think you are right, a liar is a liar. My husband did lie to me last year about this old girlfriend...but one day this spring he just walked up to me and said "We have to talk" and told me everything...including some things that were very difficult to hear. He decided that he could not live a lie, and that he would risk my leaving him rather than lie to me for one more minute. It was actually a relief, because after what happened to me 20 years ago I can smell a lie a mile off, and I *knew* something fishy was going on.
In the last few months when I've been angry at him, I did find it helpful to direct my attentions elsewhere. If I found myself obsessing about something he said or did, I'd remind myself that I don't have to mull over every slight, and that it's more pleasant to think about other things.
I've been feeling like my fatigue may actually, finally, be improving...I'm having more good days than bad now, and even a couple of months ago I could not have said that. I signed up for a series of art classes, and although I'm nervous about the time commitment, especially if the fatigue returns, I am amazed how much my mood has improved. Now whenever my eyes are open I'm looking at how I would draw what I'm seeing rather than fretting about my latest symptoms or fretting over my husband. I'm hoping this good streak continues!
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I like that...they are lying to themselves. My husband knows that the one thing I cannot cope with is being lied to. It never stops him. And I'm really angry at the therapist for implying that if I were only a little nicer to him when I catch him in the lie, he wouldn't lie. He's looking at the effect and calling it the cause.
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cf, I, like you, cannot stand a liar. So why did I marry one? My mother was a master manipulator. I dispised her but something in me must have thought I deserved to be treated this way, But 47 years later...no!
Years ago my husband took an MMPI, personality test. It said that he was a manipulator with no guilt or empathy and incapable of having a good marriage. He's trying right now but i don't know how long he can sustain the effort. He doesn't seem to understand that he has no right to manipulate me.
It's time I did focus on other things or I will lose my sanity.
I know what you mean about somehow being able to accept the bad news because it was the truth. My husband wrote me the most horrible letter a month ago. He usually is a sweet talker and a bad doer, which drives me nuts. But he wrote this hateful, vile letter and my reaction was...glad he told the truth. He treats me according to the feelings expressed in the letter but he lies and tells me how much he loves me so he sounds "good". The scathing letter was honest and I can accept that more easily than sweet words and a stab in the back.
Thanks so much for the support. IT's amazing how as strangers you understand so easily!
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I agree. The emotionally illiterate lie to themselves. Sometimes lying, sometimes by being super critcial - it shines the spotlight elsewhere.
I aslo agree that a liar is a liar. It wouldn't occur to them not to. It's a survival tool that they use, and they carry it around in their everday toolbox. If they ever make the concious desicion to change, they have to see that toolbox very clearly and be willing to do a lot of serious rerranging. It's like being told to throw away their sledgehammer, and learning that it's still possilbe to put a post in the ground. Perhaps even trusting another.
cfdr - Yippee on more good days than bad! And two yipees for your art class. Is this your first?
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Totally agree Janet. Everything depends on insight and self knowledge.
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Timbuktu - i am reminded of a book on Amazon that you might find interesting. Its called "The Sociopath Next Door" I think, here is an extract from amazon.com on the book description.......
"We are accustomed to think of sociopaths as violent criminals, but in The Sociopath Next Door, Harvard psychologist Martha Stout reveals that a shocking 4 percent of ordinary people—one in twenty-five—has an often undetected mental disorder, the chief symptom of which is that that person possesses no conscience. He or she has no ability whatsoever to feel shame, guilt, or remorse. One in twenty-five everyday Americans, therefore, is secretly a sociopath. They could be your colleague, your neighbor, even family. And they can do literally anything at all and feel absolutely no guilt.
How do we recognize the remorseless? One of their chief characteristics is a kind of glow or charisma that makes sociopaths more charming or interesting than the other people around them. They’re more spontaneous, more intense, more complex, or even sexier than everyone else, making them tricky to identify and leaving us easily seduced. Fundamentally, sociopaths are different because they cannot love. Sociopaths learn early on to show sham emotion, but underneath they are indifferent to others’ suffering. They live to dominate and thrill to win.0 -
Wow! That sums it up. And yes, he's a great charmer. Lethal charm.
We met when I was 16. what did i know?
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THe book is available on Kindle so you can start reading it instantly!!! It has useful strategies in it.......and will be a great support to you as you move towards health, no matter the decision you make re your marriage in the end as you already know you cannot stay as you are.......
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hi girls,
Lily thanks for your kind words, I don't know why I was so distraught after the 'guy on the train' - until I thought about it. I now think it was because he was so upset and spoke of his daughter's upset, which made me think about my sons...I think my head was just hurting too much after it all. I wish I had not met him.
I must admit to having some still very bad days, when I can still hardly believe that I have/had cancer. Not that there is any reason why I shouldn't have it...any more less than anyone else, but you know some days, I can still hardly believe it..... I will post more when I get these days, but I sometimes worry, I might look a bit 'needy'.
As far as the lyphodema goes, she measured and compared both arms, mine is bigger, but not much. I had/have a huge insect bite on my neck, and she said if that was on my arm I might be in trouble so her advice was to cover up. I am hoping to go back to gardening (my job) and she warned of repeated movements (mowing) and lifting heavy objects. Also to continue the massage (starting from the hand and working upwards, gently stroking), she has sent a prescription to my doc for a sleeve to be worn when i am working. I am to return in 3 months. I can tell you more or point you in the direction of useful websites if you want...just let me know.
rockym...Bloody-hell 15 year old boys are hard work Huh? - my ex also was severley lacking in compassion and empathy. I too was determined not to raise my boys that way. It was very important to me. I am certain my ex is a sociopath (a lawyer!!) He has been so utterly callous to me and the boys that on days - like the cancer, remembering it still takes my breath away. I think we are doin ok with our boys. I agree entirely with what you say, and i am listening.
Timbuktu, I am inwardly cringing as you described your session with the male therapist, it sounds awful. bullying. even. I can really sense your bewilderment.... It is possible to get your own life, I did it with 2 children, no money, no family. But it was so so hard. I do hope you 2 can work it out....
Lily, That books sounds good, My ex was/is a sociopath I am sure. He abandoned, his 1st wife with an 8 week old baby on thier wedding anniversary. walked out on me and the boys (Christmas Eve) and I was very poorly too.They were 3yrs and a baby, 14 months. I took him back and he did it again 7 years later, just went one night. my youngest was screamimg for him, but he did not bat an eyelid, he just went and never returned to the family home.....
How I kept standing after that I will never know......and all through chemo.surgery etc...was trying to get me out of the house threatening me with court. endless letters from his solicitor.
How can anyone behave that way?? - how can that be explained other than as a sociopath? I guarantee if anyone here met him they would think him the most charismatic, charming, funny man....and he was. They are so dangerous. He also has a monstrous ego...
And as a lawyer 'seeking to dominate and thrill to win' is just so accurate. I actually cannot bear to look at him
now.
But i am ok.....
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WS i dont mind if you are needy sometimes! I think we all are sometimes, i too worry people will think i am too demanding or intense but if we cant let it out here where can we?
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If we weren't all in need, we wouldn't be on this forum! If that's needy, so be it.
Lily, I wish I'd read that book 20 years ago. I even remember calling my ex-fiance a sociopath to his face. He was indeed a charmer...he could talk opera with my college friends or watch hockey with my cousins, and seemed to fit in with every group we were in. I should have taken a hint that his co-workers HATED him. They had to deal with his BS every day and saw through it a lot more quickly than I did. Ah, 20/20 hindsight...
Janet, not my first art class by a long shot. My father began his career as an illustrator, and I started oil painting lessons when I was eight. I was an art school dropout, made a career for myself as an art director, went back to school for a visual communications degree, and now work as a graphic designer. But through all the years have remained frustrated that I could never draw as well as I wanted. Maybe it's the realization of my mortality that comes with a cancer diagnosis, but I figure it's now or never. As soon as I saw the information on this illustration certificate program I knew I wanted to do it.
I also thought that maybe getting out of the house more--even for a once-a-week class--would be good for me. I also think I'm crazy to take on something that requires time, energy, and money when I'm short on all three. But I figured that I had never budgeted the time or money for two surgeries, six weeks of radiation, 3 months of chemo, 1 month of pneumonia, 6 rounds of physical therapy, or a year and a half of fatigue, yet somehow, I made the time and found the money. Now I'd like to do the same for something a lot more rewarding.
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cfdr - You said it, now or never. I'm such a big believer in doing something you love that if you make the time, the energy will come. And getting out of the house and having that structure is important. The money? Well - that's always a pain in the ass but I doubt you'll regret spending it. You sound like you've got the artist's heart.
A whole bunch of years ago I called my dad to ask if I was crazy to go traveling when I had an old car and an apartment without any furniture. He said - 'Travel. You'll never lie on your death bed wishing you hand't taken that trip'.
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You girls are so right and you are helping me to make up my mind about what to do,
LIVE!
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I figure the thing that will suffer the most is housecleaning. But I don't want to be on my deathbed thinking "I never became an artist or traveled much, but at least the carpets were always vacuumed".
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Just made yet another appointment with my PCP to talk about fatigue. I believe my options at this point are either ritalin or wellbutrin. Anyone had experience with either?
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cfdr, I read a lot about Stage IV ladies using Adderall for energy. When I was at the way bottom, I used Adderall XR to get out of the hole. I would take 7 to 10mg a day and that was enough to pep me up. I only used it for about a week or so, but kept it around for the few times I needed it again.
I can see why the drug is abused, but it helped. My dh and dd are both adhd so we happened to have the stuff around the house in various mgs. My doctor at the time was fine giving me a script for it. The fact that I was using it off label didn't bother her and I do recommend it depending on people's age and other physical and mental health factors.
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Hi everyone,
This forum has been good for me to read through. I was diagnosed early June 2012 with high grade, early stage IDC and had two different results for HER2 from two different pathology labs so have been treated as HER2 positive. I have a sucky family history of cancer on my Mom's side - all three woman from my Mom's generation had breast cancer, my Mom had 5 distinct, separate cancers over 15 years - not metasitic cancer but new cancers and finally died of sarcoma. My maternal cousins one died very young of breast cancer and another died at my ago of colon and a third has so far survived his colon cancer diagnosis in his mid-fifties.
I was tested for the Brac gene and was negative and four months later got my cancer diagnosis. I had a double mastectomy with reconstruction and then a post-op severe infection that led to them having to remove my tissue expander on the left side. Went through 8 rounds of two chemo's and herceptin weekly and then finished chemo in January of 2013, had my left tissue expander put back in but got another infection in late March and was on antibiotics for months once again. They finally removed my tissue expanders after culturing the infected fluid around the left expander and successfully put in both of my implants this past May. I was on IV and then oral antibiotics for another two months but have been infection free since my last surgery in May. I am now finishing up my every three week herceptin infusions this Thursday. The herceptin has given me lots of bone/joint pain.
I was like a lot of you during diagnosis, treatment, surgery, etc. I had some real tough moments but felt in general I soldiered through it. I had a rough time when chemo ended last January but after I had my left tissue expander put back in my mood improved.
I have been a full time mother of 5 kids - all who are grown now and have been enormously supportive, as has my husband, friends, neighbors and an incredible oncology team of doctors and nurses. My daughter is having our first grandchild next week and I will fly out to be with her for that. My youngest (my kids span ages 19 - 34) so I have had children living in my house for 31 years - we just dropped off at college in the midwest. He took a year off after high school in part because of my diagnosis and also because he wasn't yet ready for school. Anyway - I am blabbering and giving lots of detail which is probably not necessary but all seems relevant to me. I have just been in terrible shape lately emotionally. I am so sad to no longer see my team of amazing nurses where I get my infusions, I am terrified I will have more cancer and I no longer have a place (like my breast) that they can more easily diagnose it, I am at a loss having no children at home. I have healthy, strong, independant adult kids - just what I wanted them to be, they live all over the US, stay in touch frequently, come home when they can and they are the loves of my life. I don't "want" them to be living with me or living their lives any differently then they are I just no longer feel like I know who I am. My body feels foreign to me, I feel distant and removed from the things I have always loved, walking, hiking, caring for my animals (I have five dogs, two horses, two donkeys and goats) and taking care of our old farmhouse and small farm. I love all of these things, I have incredible gratitude for all the blessings I have in my life but ENOURMOUS guilt that I am so, so sad all the time.
I had an old friend I had lost touch with for about 10 years that I met at oncology having treatment last fall. She had sarcomas throughout her belly and they were trying a new chemo to see if they could treat her. I found talking to her during treatment and after my chemo ended so helpful. We understood that even though we had a different cancer we were going through this together and our talks and text really helped.
I was making a plan to go see her after my last surgery in May when I found out on Facebook she died. I haven't really connected with other women since then. I hope some of you can walk me through this part. I feel so detached from my life, my body, my sexuality and I want to feel connected and happy again.
Thanks everyone.
Julieho
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Juilieho,
Hello and welcome to the 'why was I.....stronger' - All of us on here have supported each other through really tough times the end of treatment being one of them. I would not have got through without all this help. Come here to get the help when it threatens to be overwhelming....
You too are now experiencing this tough tough time. For myself hoped to feel relief when treatment was done. In fact I think that this time (along with the initial dx) was harder. I really mean that - it was (and still is if I am honest brutally crushing).
The sense of abandonment (our medical team - special nurses and docs), as you have acknowledged, how to say goodbye to people that have saved our life? The lack of real understanding from family and friends who really can't understand just what we have been through, try as they might Can cause strain -even on the best of relationships. Our new reality is constant edgeiness: 'What is that pain??, what is that lump?? We may now live with cancer as a background hum, rather than a shriek, but it is still as frightening at times. We have to find a way to deal with that, adjust to it - it's yet another challenge when we are physically and emotionally wrung out.
You talk a great deal about losses of your family to cancer, no wonder you feel alone and afraid- you have seen what it can do - That too will increase your fear, and sense of isolation. Especially as the loss of your friend was another blow.
Also loss of the children, my eldest (I have 2) is off to university and I share with you the loss of that role. You have had around for so long! it is not a suprise that you feel bewildered, empty nest syndrome is often a time of crisis anyway without the bc stuff.
The loss of your breast, your children, your family members too, your sexuality (me too) - Look at all that loss, is it a surprise you feel done in?
Give yourself time, your beloved family of animals will help you, it's suprising what a warm muzzle can do to heal us!
Try not to rush into 'feeling better' - is my advice, just take little baby steps, don't expect too much of yourself.....explore those difficult feelings of'guilt' with a counsellor or good friend. I too feel guilt, have heard lots of women say that too.
Here is something else that really helped me: http://www.cancercounselling.org.uk/northsouth/extra4.nsf/WebResClient/1761049276601BD68025735B00604834/$FILE/article3.pdf
I hope this helps.
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Well said Wintersocks. Yes Julieho, we identify. Big Hugs ~ I'm at work and am about to leave but wanted you to know you are so not alone and many read this thread and can't always reply but send well wishes through the heart.
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Thank you so much wintersocks for your response.
I read the article you attached and it was so helpful to realize what a huge process this all is and that it is much more "expected" and universal than I thought.
My oncology therapist has been saying that I am so hard on myself - which is true and I noticed in the article you sent he talks a great deal about that as one of the outcomes of having cancer, finishing treatment and trying to find a way back to "normal" which is something I can't even define anymore.
I am beginning to learn how to use these forums. I have commented on a few topics but then come back and can't remember the topic so I learned today to save any topic I commented on to "my favorites" so I can see what others say.
Thank you so much once again for your understanding and compassion.
Take care,
Julieho
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Welcome Julie,
Welcome! This group has been a wonderful sounding board and reality check for me. I hope we are for you, too.
My husband said to me at one time that he could handle my being fatigued, but not my being upset all the time about being fatigued. I only mention that because when you said that you feel guilty for being depressed it reminded me of that...the idea that we have one thing going on that's bad enough, let's not compound it by adding guilty about being depressed or depressed about being fatigued!
You are finding your new normal not just post-cancer but also post-having-5-kids-at-home. The silence must be deafening! I am still stumbling to find my new normal but the one thing that has helped has been simply to take it one day, one hour, one minute at a time. It's when I start thinking about the future...will I ever have more energy? What if I have a recurrence? That I feel most anxious.
A side note: have you tried facetime or skype with your kids? They are apps that do live video phone calls. We do facetime with our daughter and granddaughter. She is only 18 months but recognizes us on facetime, which is such a kick!
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Julie, this is the place, sometimes the only place, where you will be understood. We've all been there, are still there.
One day at a time is right. And what a gift it is to have...one more day!
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Julieho...welcome aboard. You are dealing with a lot, so be good to yourself. There is no set time table for "recovery" from BC alone, much less all the other stuff you are dealing with. This board is a great place to come when you need support, a dose of kindness, a reality check, or just to get something off your chest. It has helped me make it through some rough days over the last year and a half. We all get it, so use us to help you as we have been helping eachother along the way. It is truly touching to make such strong connections with people you have never met in person, but we have some very strong connections on here. We will gladly walk with you through this tough time. Know that you are in my thoughts and prayers.
Wintersocks, cfdr, rockym, purl, timbuktu, scottie, dunesleeper, janet, lily and everyone else out there...thinking of you all, each and every day.
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Rabbit43, Timbuktu, wintersocks, purl51, cfdr -
Thank all of you for your messages. Phew - this just sort of sucks. Not feeling like I know who I am at all anymore. I feel just "outside" myself - like I watch myself do things, or take in a view or place that I have always loved and treasured and don't feel connected.
It is so helpful to know all of you are out there, not that I wish this struggle on anyone else but it helps to know that others face it too. In part I feel so crazy, like everyone keeps saying - you look great, I love your new short hair or you must be so happy it is all over and I don't want to explain that the fact that I lost a lot of weight during cancer treament (which I think most people thinks makes me "look great" and that my short hair which I am desperately trying to grow out and is now at a REALLY goofy stage is just frustrating and that I am scared and sad in some bizarre way that my treatment is over, I feel like I am no longer fighting the cancer or something. Now it is just me and I don't know who that is. No kids at home, the work I do for an amazing non-profit doing health care in South Sudan feels uninspired and like I can't handle it any longer.
I am try to find ways to be intimate with my husband but "feel nothing physically" - I am almost as numb down there as my two impants are.
Anyway, your messages and words help me realize I am not unique, alone in these thoughts, wrong or just plain weak - I am just getting through a new and uncomfortable phase of my cancer recovery and my life's path.
Thank you all so much - I send you all love and healing thoughts.
Julieho
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julieho, I will give you my late father's favorite line and now one of mine... this too shall pass. It is true. I was so deep in the "what the heck is happening to me now?" stage, but somewhere hidden far back in my mind was knowing that these stages are temporary. I recall calling a friend or two who had been through this and asked when some of this ends. I got some crappy answers like never. I was told you will always think about it, etc. etc. Well, they were wrong. I don't always think about the past. Most of it is just a memory that is fading the way my real memory does :-).
Sometimes I feel more at peace with myself as I have a "situation" to blame for my crappy memory, few pounds of weight, in between hair style, etc. I can tell you, however, I really know the feeling of feeling outside of yourself. It is very uncomfortable, but rest assured if you are in that place, you have a good grip about what is happening. It does take a bit to figure out who we are again, but it will happen.
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It will get better Julie. As hard as it is to believe. I remember that first party I went to. A friend asked me "So? How are you?" and I was absolutely stumped. Where were the words to describe how I was? I think she was asking are you in remission. I've never heard anyone use that word with me. Or cure. It's not like getting the flu and you get over it. Its too uncertain. Even day to day is uncertain. But eventually people stop asking and so you don't have to think of an answer and I'm not telling anyone new since I'm hoping it will recede into the background from now on "God willing!"
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Hi julieho - welcome and you will find that we all alternate between good and bad days and sometimes we get real surprises like finding out how eloquent a writer Wintersocks is, she expressed it so well!!!
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Rock, I just read your post, after posting myself and it's funny how similar they are.
I, too, sort of appreciate having a reason for my memory lapses, fatigue, etc. I was a member of a great books group and was known for my terrific memory. In the spring I re-joined for a session but it was really hard to concentrate and remember. I mentioned it to my male, dr., seatmate and he said "chemo brain does not work as an excuse forever."
I told him "yes it does! Forever!"
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Julieho -this is a great thread. Reading the old post from all of these ladies was SO helpful to me a few weeks back when I was hit with a pretty good punch of "Now What". I have tagged it as a favorite and keep up with everyone's helpful postings.
I really enjoyed reading the article just posted by Wintersocks. I think I am in "convalenscence" stage....what a great word. I am trying my best to get my body back in shape and giving myself the time to do it.
As everone has said, you have been through so much and THEN add the empty nest/house. I still remember getting hit with this overwhelming sadness one day, out of the blue, during my daughters last semester of college. Mu husband and I were looking forward to more time, no tuition bills, my daughter starting her life and then "POW". It just hit me. "Where did the time go? It is all over. All the running, planning, etc". I still remember to this day how strong an emotion that was. It lasted a good few months. I guess it was very similiar to the "Now What" post treatment. You had both of those whammy's at the same time!
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