I look for other flat chested women. A rant.
Comments
-
I totally understand what you mean MT - every time I think, well maybe it would be nice to have those perky young boobs, I check out some of the recon forums, even though these women seem very happy, I'm always glad it's not me - can't wait for my new insurance to kick in in March and I can get my PMX with no out of pocket!!!!
0 -
Granellie - I am in Knoxville visiting. Meeting with a friend from the lymphedema forum tomorrow but heading home on Tues. Perhaps next time we can meet. You look gorgeous! And happy, which is most important!
0 -
Granellie, you do look glamorous, and your men are most dashing too.
0 -
Thank you, Tina and Momine. I have another handsome son. Wish he could've come from California to celebrate with us.
Tina I would be interested in seeing you. Let me know when you'll next be in town.
0 -
Ellie, sucks to be old is all I can say
20 years ago, your boys would have been in trouble, lol.0 -
lol - Yes Granellie, both you and your family look great!
0 -
Mellie, Linda, I can't imagine doing any of those things to my body. It was very hard for me, years ago, to sacrifice part of the articular surface of my knee to transplant it to a weight-bearing part of my knee that had a serious injury. "Robbing Peter to pay Paul" was what my orthopedist called it. But it let me walk normally again, and eventually run (in the outfield, of course). Even though I do great for what I went through, I can't pretend it's a normal knee. Both my injury site and donor site took big hits.
I can't imagine further harming my body, or putting something foreign into it. Sometimes now, I run my hand across my chest and I think "This is me." I don't do it as part of grieving, just to remind myself of my new surfaces and edges. It's very comforting. Me, this is me here. It may not feel like the old me, but when I put my hand to my chest I do come against flesh of my own.
I had a really hard time recently. Very sick with cellulitis in my lymphedema, a lot of bacteria in my blood. I get flashbacks to chemo and how very sick I was for so long when I'm sick now. Fearful that I'll get stuck in that kind of retreated-from-life place of lying in the bed all day. Today I'm feeling better and I get to stop IV antibiotics. Just feeling glad for the wholeness of myself today, and that even though I'm not who I was before cancer, there is a whole person who is out in the world and part of it all.
0 -
I agree that it needs to be more comfortable for women to decide to go flat. There's still way too much pressure brought to bear on this decision.
0 -
Granellie, You look fabulous and are surrounded by beautiful men. You look confident and happy, a very good thing. I am sorry I did not comment earlier.
Outfield- I know how you are feeling, I understand. I am sorry your current treatments are opening those haunted thoughts, but glad that you are able to see the difference too. I experienced some of that when I had Shingles.
I too touch my chest and remind myself that this is my body, my choice, my strength of spirit and character.
0 -
Granellie - You are gorgeous and your men are pretty stunning as well.
Outfield - Sooooooo very happy to hear that you are have improved enough to be stopping the IV antibiotics and firmly on the road to recovery.
Robbing Peter to pay Paul as I described as cannabalizing my good parts. I fully understand the knee as the trade-off was more mobility and with that more independence. I see recon as the opposite, damaging muscle, inviting scar tissue to cause issues, inviting complications, all of which could limit mobility and with that some of my independence. The trade-off being for something visual that might look like the real thing but isn't - and even more scars. I like my other parts and I like them being free of scars. I guess the difference for me is that breasts do not trump other parts. I am older in senior territory and live alone. An overriding consideration for me is always being as self-reliant as possible and hopefully good looking dead lumps on my chest do not contribute anything to self-reliant and could negatively impact it. I need my job and I need my insurance. I don't hear much said about it from most people but signing up for all the necessary time off, maybe for as much as 2 years (may not say that in the brochures but doesn't take long on the recon threads to see that possibility) with all the surgeries, recoveries, etc. in this economy seems risky and we haven't even brought up the economic cost. Unthinkable risks, definitely not in the budget in my world, and to my other dear parts - definitely not willing to sacrifice you.
Barbara
0 -
I am again thinking of what I had put aside last August - of starting up a non-profit to advocate, support, and educate on living flat as an alternative to reconstruction. While recon or not is a very personal choice, I do wonder if women choosing recon are fully informed and whether, if it were more socially acceptable to live flat, more women would choose to do it. Most of the women on this thread who chose to go flat determined to do so on their own. There is also a physical as well as well as financial toll to recon, even if insurance pays for it.
0 -
I feel the need as a matter of disclosure especially to the new people here who may not know this, that the very same woman who wrote all of the above, decided that a couple of lumps of tissue were more than she could tolerate and opted for more surgery. Granted equivalent to a fairly minor revision in the world of recon and no other body parts sacrificed but with indeed even more scars. Looked at everything, the time off, the costs, the risks, what if it all REALLY went bad - infection, failure to heal, necrosis... and had the surgery. Was it worth it? YES!! Would I do it again? YES!! For those of you who remember the DaVinci code and the like, the Freemasons, well it is not a perfect match but the scars across my chest now look as if a Masonic symbol has been carved into my chest. Knew it beforehand, signed up for it, decided it was preferable to living with The Mutants (dog ears) - and in perfect 20/20 hindsight it was.
Barbara
0 -
Alexandria - I like your idea.
It is only on the most minor level but I have started to talk to people about the concept, about us, and our desire for it is to be deemed as fully normal. I especially like to talk to people who are anywhere near the subject, like doctors, people in the American Cancer Society or Susan G. Komen, many who incidentally had not even realized I was flat as I stood in front of them until I brought it up. Trying to plant a seed here and there and hope some of them grow.
Barbara
0 -
Alexandria, I assume when you say living flat, you mean not having reconstruction AND choosing not to wear breast forms. As you know, I like to think of women who choose not to have reconstruction as living breast-free. Once breast-free, a woman can then opt to wear breast forms or not. She can go flat some of the time or all of the time.
Do you feel it's particularly important that women who decide not to have reconstruction also opt not to ever wear breast forms? Even among those here who choose to go flat most or all of the time, there's a lot of discussion about how to camouflage their flatness with clothing choices. For at least some women who choose to go flat, the decision is more about physical comfort than about letting the world know they've had breast cancer.
Obviously, I'm reflecting my own biases. While very open about my mastectomy, I feel more comfortable physically and emotionally wearing breast forms in public. I actually think my flat chest is beautiful and (after six years) I've almost forgotten what it feels like to have breasts, but in clothes I think my flatness would draw attention. I'm the kind of person who doesn't like to draw attention by clothing or behavior, so I shy away from going flat for that reason.
I chose not to reconstruct for the same reasons as most women on this forum--I didn't define myself by my breasts, I didn't want extra surgery, I didn't want foreign objects (implants) inside me, and I didn't want to involve other parts of my body (for flap surgery). Those seem like the important distinctions when a woman considers whether or not to have reconstruction. I think it's fortunate that, even having chosen not to reconstruct, I still have the option of wearing breast forms. I'm not ashamed of having a flat chest. I just choose not to advertise it.
In a nutshell, my concern is that if women think their choice is between reconstruction or living totally flat (i.e. no breast forms), that would scare some of them away from opting not to have reconstruction.
All that being said, I think that if you feel differently, it would be a great idea for you to create a non-profit to promote your point of view.
Barbara
0 -
Barbara,
Your thinking could not echo mine more closely.
Do I miss my breasts and their attendant pleassures? Of course. We all wish that we could return to a pre-cancer state, but it just isn't possible.
Knowing that, for me, the appearance of having breasts does not trump the attendant risks of reconstruction.
In truth I've found that people just don't notice I'm flat even though I don't do anything significant to hide it. It's simply my new normal. I suspect that not being self conscious about it myself goes a long way in making others unaware of it.
Really, the only thing that I would like to change is the size of my belly. With work, much work, that may happen.
0 -
Barbara, I agree that there's two issues - recon or not, thereby going breast free - or forms or not. I think women should be presented with all options as of the time of surgery, which they often are not, including the possibility of wearing forms or going flat. As we've discussed so often here on this thread, there is frequently pressure to do recon. However, I also think that being flat should be an acceptable option. It took me a while to get here. The first few months after my BMX, I couldn't bear the feeling of bras or forms, but I also felt self-consious about appearing without breasts. It no longer concerns me, and I no longer feel self-conscious about being flat. Not only is it more comfortable, it's who I am. So many women still write about not feeling feminine, about feeling self-consciousness, even afraid of stares, if they choose to go flat. I think support, education, and public acceptance of living flat would make a lot of difference to self image.
0 -
Alexandria, I also think it is a great idea to speak to people, especially people who deal directly with breast cancer patients, and let them know that you can be happy being flat. As it has been said before, having it presented as an option, normalizes it. I do include all of those who wear prothesis in this category - as Erica describes us, we are all living 'breast free'. We have chosen not to further mutilate our bodies by having reconstruction. Most of us care more about our health and feeling natural than having a couple of lumps sewn onto us to make the rest of the world happy. I totally understand that some women are much more self conscious than others about whether or not people will notice their lack of breasts. Some are also much more private than others. Me, I have told everyone at work (office of 12) about both surgeries, and even some of my long term clients. I didn't want there to be this elephant in the room - where people know but don't know if they are allowed to ask questions or not. Everyone at the office knows I have chosen to remain flat, and I don't think they treat me any differently (all except the boss - that is a whole other topic, but it is the cancer and time off not the flatness that is the issue). I have a friend who had her second mx due to cancer this year, and she was very small busted to start with (AA), but the idea of going into work without prothesis is not something she could ever see herself doing. She says that your clothes can't possibly sit right without breasts. I would never suggest to her that she needs to think differently, I just tell her what works for me. The point is that by talking about it, she now knows that the option of living flat exists, and I know the option of prothesis exists, and there may be times where I agree that a little padding would make a special outfit look better, and both options are ok.
0 -
Erica (Barbara) - I think the saddest thing ever would be if we disintegrated into factions, or if we traded one oppression to conform in one direction for another oppression to conform in another direction. I hope for more options, the freedom to try them on, and the freedom to change our minds - many times. I do want flat without forms to be right there equally on the list with all the recon options and the breast free with forms option. I do NOT hope for or even want conformity. I have already changed my mind about many things and want to always keep the door open to change it again many times. And I wish the same for each of you that the door will be left open to go through or not.
Barbara
0 -
I appreciate the responses to Alexandria's post and my subsequent one.
Barbara (Starak), my experience has been like yours--I've changed my mind about many things since my mastectomy and expect that my thinking will continue to evolve. At least, I hope so!
kmpod, one of the things that changed for me was my expectation that I would be able to go flat in public without feeling self-conscious about it. I'm sure you're right that your ability to do that has contributed to people not noticing. I absolutely believe that the way I carry myself affects the way others see me, but I found that I was so aware of my chest when going flat in public that I couldn't let go of the self-conscious feeling. So, for now I've accepted that I feel better in public with breast forms on. At home is another story...
0 -
I am with Starak on this. I also find that post-cancer, I don't like to feel hemmed in by anyone or anything.
0 -
Djustme, I meant to ask earlier, how are you doing? Has your hematoma begun to resolve at all? When will you see the doctor again? Hope you get this behind you soon!
0 -
I agree with you Starak - and WELL SAID! More than likely, a high percentage of us have family members whose medical needs were vast and things went WRONG and bad things happened - on necessary procedures. Signing up for a surgical procedure, for me, was impossible to do because of a family member's bad luck and intense suffering over a lengthy time period. Initially, for me, it was a no-brainer because I couldn't see the tripled length of surgical time, and the 4-6-8-10 week recovery time, with 2-3 additional "procedures" along the way. I'm a big WIMP and just couldn't face it.
THANKS FOR ALL OF YOU - you all give me comfort knowing that I made the right choice for ME. Hope all of you feel comfy with your choices too.
0 -
It's all about choice, isn't it? Not pressuring anyone to live flat, but to offer it as a viable alternative.
0 -
The weather lady this morning said "There is no shame to my game"...and I smiled as I repeated that a few times today. She was talking about rolling her pants up in the rain, I am talking about my chest. Stephanie Abrams was her name.
MT, your line "I too touch my chest and remind myself that this is my body, my choice, my strength of spirit and character." is VERY empowering. I still believe I made a good choice. I know a woman who is now addicted to pain killers due to all the recon surgeries.
I also loved the thought that we are still evolving, becoming who we need to be. We did not choose reconstruction, but we are still figuring out our path. For me, some days the pressure of the memory foam helps me to not "feel"...and some days they make it worse.
Just like some days I feel more comfortable in public with forms, and other days i say the heck to the "strangers" I encounter and wear forms ONLY because I want to.
We are all learning to love the women we now are.
0 -
Erica, I think it is important to have a presense (liturature, pamphlets, imagery) in doctors offices, hospitals and support groups clearly stating that not all women want to wear forms after opting out of reconstruction. I think it is OK to say that reconstruction after breast cancer is an -option-, not actually part of the treatment for breast cancer. It is a choice that we need to make. At my cancer care center the assumption was, reconstruct or wear forms. This is unacceptable to me.
Wearing forms can help with moving on, giving the wearer a sense of privacy, comfort, shape to fill out her clothing, but for me it does not (yet) feel this way. For me it says, you are not enough, wear forms and make like nothing happened. And for women like me, having a pamphlet to say, hey, there are MANY options INCLUDING going flat, would have been a boon. It seems to me that going flat is breast cancers dirty-little-secret. Don't ask, don't tell, you can always reconstruct down the line. Seeing images of full chested women is not enough, it does not show the whole picture.
Going flat is not meant to discredit wearing breast forms, it isn't a threat, it is just one option among many that is overlooked because of societal pressure to conform, this is an option that has just started to be embraced and there aren't many women doing it. The more women do it, the less we will need to have these debates, it will be just another option. But right now, I for one, do not feel as though us flatties have as broad a platform to be just who, what and how we want to be.
I agree that choosing the breast-free option gives us many options, and I plan to try forms out for myself, there is a possibility that I will love the comfort, clothing options, privacy. I remain open. But, there are women going through the hell of diagnosis who are not being presented with the full array of options and that seems oppressive to me.
0 -
I wear forms or not the same way I choose my shoes each day. I went back to work on Monday and wore forms for most of the day- took them off in the afternoon because they felt heavy six weeks after surgery. Today, I went to work flat. Nobody but me cares either way. Choices, choices, I love em!! Tomorrow, who knows? It Is sad to think any women would feel pressured or not be informed of her right to go flat or have reconstruction if so desired. The cause I would rally around is simply freedom to choose and the ability to make an infomed decision.
0 -
I just say "ditto" to all your eloquent comments about breast-free, form-free, and personal choice. MT, Erica, crystal, Barbara, and all you other prose-oriented ladies: well said! I completely agree that not all options are presented equally, very biased toward reconstruction in my BS's office. One of the NPs that works there had BC and went the whole reconstruction route and said she was very pleased except she wouldn't do the nipple recon again if she had it to do over. So that is the spiel most patients hear, and she is very kind, encouraging, and truly is committed to taking care of women with BC, but is very biased because of her own experience - and from what I can tell, her journey was much easier than many women here because she just didn't have any complications from treatment. I think those who have complications are much more common than those who do not, but no one wants to hear the complaints - everyone just wants us to "be all OK and over it" so THEY can feel better, less fearful. OK, I am rambling.... took my pain pill a while ago - have had 3 days of pain flare - does this seem to be related to weather changes??? Anyway, I am going flat over 95% of the time and am feeling more comfortable in my warrior-wounded and scarred body.
0 -
MT: You said it well and eloquently. That exactly is what I would like to see - that women see no recon, including both the possibilities of forms or flat, to be as valid a choice as recon. I'd like to see brochures in every BS office, support groups, public education, that we are no less beautiful if we choose to live flat, we are no less womanly or feminine.
0 -
Ive been reading this thread and Ive read the reconstruction thread also and finally thought I would add something. Im very new on this journey, just had surgery three weeks ago left mx but with everything else we will be following up and taking the right breast also.
Its been interesting to see peoples reactions to my cancer and/or loosing a breast, its been interesting to reading the many threads on here. I think the biggest thing I feel is that women feel they have the freedom to choose what ever they feel is right for them without being critized or anything like that for their choices.
For me personally, I was never upset about loosing my breast, I was upset about having cancer. I have researched and for me at this time I do not want any reconstruction. I actually think once they removed the other breast it will be so much easier in regards to choices, ie do I go flat or wear forms today. For me I know I will prefer flat, Im an athlete, but I think there will also be times where I might want to wear forms so I do plan on getting fitted eventually. My attitude re flat or any choice one makes with this is too bad if someone doesnt like it I do.
I cant imagine ever having reconstruction and honestly I dont understand why someone would want to do that but I respect their choice but I think in general society in the western world questions going flat more than reconstruction, which is very tied into how women are view in society especially through the media. My hope is that any of these choices we have to make because of BC are made in being true to oneself and not being true to what we percieve to be acceptable in society etc etc.
I find it sad and a reflection society that many people have asked me when am I getting reconstruction before asking me how I actually was, and how is the cancer situation etc etc. As I said its early for me but these are my thoughts right now on the matter.
Take Care
0 -
Erica-your website has helped many many women, including me. I was certain I wouldn't reconstruct for all the reasons above & a couple more. When I found your website prior to my BMX, I knew I was making the right choice. The pictures of the women really reassured me. But in looking at them, I knew I'd skip the prostheses/forms. After my BMX, I started going up a size so clothes would fit loosely. I no longer do that & make no attempt to hide my flatness.
The reason we post such things, is it may help others. I don't know anyone in my predicament. So connecting with others also helps me. Perhaps it will give someone the courage they need to try going flat. Perhaps that person finds prostheses uncomfortable.
I live in a "laid-back" California beach community. So perhaps clothes are less important here than in a big city. Don't really know. Should I ever decide to try forms or prostheses, I would value your opinion & knowledge.
0
