Study n effectiveness of Iodine
Comments
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If you are going to post links, please at least give the affiliation, credentials, of the person writing. Who is Michael Donaldson PhD, and what organization is he affiliated with?
This is a site for BREAST CANCER. Just wondering, if the poster does have breast cancer?
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Miffwine--Thank you for the excellent information from Dr. Donald Miller's website.
Sunflowers, when did we have to start citing credentials and sources? Let's be grateful we are the benfeiciary of such interesting information.
It's been great to keep this very positive thread as kind as possible. The Complementary and Alternative boards have been running so amiably. I'm sure you want to keep the threads positive.
Hugs!
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This is what goes on here 99.9% of the time.
You can't post credible research or even provide the credentials of your gurus. Sad.
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OMG....that's funny!
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Hi Ladies
I've seen this happen before. Please lets no go there. Lets all play nice.
I am at the stage of being interested in iodine and want to research it. I am happy to hear from other ladies who may already have done some of the leg work and can point me in the right direction.
However - I have a brain and eyes and it is my duty to think about and query what these ladies are telling me.
If you want more information about who wrote an article or what their credentials are as a warning to other ladies that all may not be in order - that is great - but we can ask these questions nicely.
Life is hard enough for ALL OF US without internal strife.
One of the first things I did was to look at Miffwine's other posts to see who they were and how they fit into breast cancer.
So yes - while I agree we shouldn't rely on every website or on anything on the web - expecially outdated information or single angle opinions - lets just be polite and not turn this thread into a fight or a I'm right - You're wrong duet.
Critically minded ladies (which I see as a positive characteristic by the way) - lets put some energy into finding real research papers about Iodine and breast cancer (preferablly on human cells and not animals PLEASE). I found one but its from 2009 and that is too old! There has to be some real research out there. Where?
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Bounce, I found a couple of recent studies from Drexel. The most recent one is a PDF, and I can't figure out how to link it. But if you google iodine+breast cancer+Drexel, it should come up.
What I have found so far is that there are intriguing indications that there might be some sort of connection and some sort of benefit from iodine in breast cancer. "Indications" is about as good as it gets, however, and none of the credible research I have seen in any way indicates that it would be beneficial to take massive overdoses of the stuff on a regular basis.
Sorry to be a nudge on this, but I see it as a recurring logic fail in all kinds of domains. Someone establishes that lack of X may contribute to Y. People then conclude that getting all jiggy with X in huge quantities will somehow prevent or cure Y. It simply does not follow. Sometimes good enough is exactly good enough and in fact the best thing. In other words, I believe we should aim for a good balance in all things - pan metron ariston, as the Greeks put it (measure in all things).
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LOL - of course no one said one HAD TO cite sources, or affiliations, we can all just sing "hallelujah" to what ever is linked, and laugh with yorkie who proves a picture is, indeed, worth more than words.
Reminder - this is a COMPLEMENTARY Forum. No ownership, questions allowed. I suggest those who are interested in the affiliation of some of the links posted, Google the author of the article. I continue to be interested in the issue of breast cancer, and "interesting information" like so much else, is obviously in the mind of the reader.
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Out of our own insecurity, we sometimes project characteristics onto others which we refuse to own ourselves. It's a defense mechanism.
Recently, up until this example, there has been consistent source citing going on, providing the evidence that some of you have said doesn't exist, but somehow those doing the persistent and daily reading, investigating and researching, and posting evidence are the ones with their heads in the sand??
There were nearly 40,000 deaths from breast cancer in the US in 2013. That is a reality none of us can ignore. At least I choose not to. Just because its a reality doesn't mean it's acceptable though. It's certainly not to me. Finding research based evidence of ways that we can help ourselves and others to stay alive (though hilarious to some) is the kind of fight that is needed to not only help ourselves, but to move towards finally finding a cure.
Oncologists used to laugh at those claiming that the origin of cancer was immunological, and argued, (because of what they were taught) that it was only a genetically based disease. Finally progressive research, now making it's way into mainstream has lead us to cancer vaccines which are focused on training our immune systems to rid our bodies of the disease. They've already saved many. Poking fun just gives the pioneers the umph to push forward. So keepem' coming Yorkie!
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Again, I question the validity of the source of the link, Michael Donaldson, PhD, ( who on his website explains he left Cornell, so not sure where the PhD is from or what subject it is in) I question the value of that article, and several others posted. Again, this is the Complementary Forum, perhaps individuals not willing to have any questions asked, will need to post else where. I don't think anyone is "poking fun" by asking questions, and not accepting refusal to answer as a funny thing at all.
Thank you Momine:
Sorry to be a nudge on this, but I see it as a recurring logic fail
in all kinds of domains. Someone establishes that lack of X may
contribute to Y. People then conclude that getting all jiggy with X in
huge quantities will somehow prevent or cure Y. It simply does not
follow. Sometimes good enough is exactly good enough and in fact the
best thing. In other words, I believe we should aim for a good balance
in all things - pan metron ariston, as the Greeks put it (measure in all
things).0 -
those footsteps are following you kayb, thanks for saying it so kindly
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This forum is for "complementary and holistic treatment." No one needs to go anywhere. Sorry mfwine, I know you've shared already about the reasons you are here. To some here, the onus is always on those who are FOR the "complimentary and holistic treatment". This is the kind of onslaught we are prone to when we try to converse here on the "complimentary and holistic forum" about "compimentary and holistic treatments".
As for getting all jiggy w/ the iodine, The dose can be over done. Point taken Momine.
Still there's been a lot of researched based support for iodine sited here, much of it by Mfwine, so I don't understand the attack on him. "Creepy?" is a nice way of saying it? Even if Mfwine's last two articles were totally debunked, there is plenty enough research to convince me of iodines beneifts.
Plus, I've had my own experience with it. Lugols iodine has made me feel worlds better. Iodine is required for our bodies to survive. Our standard American diet, and environment depletes the body of iodine.That is a well established well supported fact.
I have to ask that you do your own research until you find studies that say otherwise, before you gang up and attempt to discredit individuals who have done nothing but share with us their research.
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Hi Momine
Have been away from my computer for a number of hours and am playing catch up.
Am glad to see everyone still expressing their opinions but nicely.
I agree with you when you said ...
"... I see it as a recurring logic fail in
all kinds of domains. Someone establishes that lack of X may contribute
to Y. People then conclude that getting all jiggy with X in huge
quantities will somehow prevent or cure Y. It simply does not follow.
Sometimes good enough is exactly good enough and in fact the best thing.
In other words, I believe we should aim for a good balance in all
things - pan metron ariston, as the Greeks put it (measure in all
things)."I must agree with you. I am not starting to take huge amounts of iodine (or any at all yet) until I research further and figure out the RDV and the amount I am or am not getting from food. When I do take it will be a carefully researched dose and I will monitor my reactions - probably a lot more carefully than I am doing with the Tamoxifen I am taking daily.
I live in a very sunny climate and yet I am Vitamin D deficient. I am going to have to figure out how much Vitamin D to supplement with as well seeing as the 400 dose did not raise my Vitamin D levels enough to make me D sufficient.
I am not looking for any one cause to peg the blame on for getting cancer. I think there may be a few different factors that have to occur for each individual before they get cancer - (rather like the full barrel asthma attack idea). What I do want to do is keep myself as healthy as possible to hopefully prevent a recurrence.
I don't think of iodine as natural and therefore better than drugs such as Tamoxifen. To me they are all chemicals of some sort which my body may need in the right dose to run smoothly.
The Greeks may have said it first (and in Greek) but my mother has always said - All things in moderation.
For me that must now include exercise too. Exercise is almost as scary for me as iodine.
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Bounce, iodine is a trace mineral that is found naturally in the body. I agree with you though that it's always good to be conscientious and cautious with everything.
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Light, I really haven't seen anything cited, here or elsewhere, that shows in any definitive way that lack of iodine causes breast cancer OR that taking massive doses of iodine (50 mg a day qualifies as a massive dose) is a good idea.
The main "evidence" is the study on iodine consumption in Japan correlated with the relatively low breast cancer rates there. In other studies the low BC rate in Japan had been attributed to soy consumption. It is interesting, intriguing and warrants further research, but by itself it isn't really proof of anything. It is guessing at causal relationships from observed correlations.
As for Miff, I don't recall anyone attacking him. I do understand why people wonder about his posting here.
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Bounce, LOL on the exercise. But there is the one thing that has been shown to lower recurrence rates, death rates and that will almost surely improve overall health, thus protecting you from dying from other stuff as well. If it helps any, I always imagine that as long as I am moving the cancer can't catch me
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Light, there is plenty of medical evidence to show that overdoses of iodine can cause harm, including thyroid cancer. Nobody needs to do much research to find that out.
There are also several warnings from various doctors, including alternative ones like Dr. Weil and Dr. Mercola, not to take excessive iodine.
As far as a claim that large doses of iodine can cure breast cancer, for example, nobody is going to do a study to disprove that, since the claim has never been proven in any scientific way to begin with.
As I posted several times already, there are a couple of recent studies from Drexel on this issue, which is great. However, the conclusions of those studies are not all that dramatic, which may be why they are not being shared on iodine sites.
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The domain with the article by Michael Donaldson also has a page about the author
http://www.hacres.com/about/staff/dr-michael-donal...
There's a mountain of information at the hallelujah acres site. If memory serves me right, it was developed by the founder Dr Malkmus who had colon cancer at the time and he survived his disease with the diet.
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Althea, thanks for the background info. I know people here are not fond of Quackwatch, but the site does have a pretty full article on Malkmus (honorary doc from a Baptist college), if anyone is interested.
Also, the Hallelujah bio on Donaldson makes it sound like he has a Ph.D in chemical engineering, but elsewhere on the net he is billed as a doctor of chiropraxy.
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Momine, who said that is the "main" study supporting iodine? We can cross reference research all day on the health benefits of iodine. Did someone here say that it is lack of iodine that "causes" or iodine that "cures" bc? I guess I missed that. I thought we were talking about a complimentary treatment for breast cancer, or a holistic treatment for our overall health, as the forum is titled- Compimentary and Holistic Treatments.
Doesn't everything warrant further research? If you don't think iodine is for you, don't take it. Why hang out on a thread and ridicule people who actually do their research on it, one that posts it with 68 references, and say that their head is in the sand? or that they are creepy? what is the point of that? I mean, do you think that is kind and considerate? is it warranted? Why not just agree to communicate differences respectfully?
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I'm definitely not a fan of quackwatch. Steve Barrett would better serve the population by starting a Flat Earth Society imo.
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Momine -- I think you're over-relying on a quick Google search to research iodine. My onc has videos of the iodine medical conference where they discussed the upcoming clinical trials. This stuff is not on the web. You really need to find a go-to person who has been researching the iodine medical literature for years to find out what's going on in the clinical trials. He or she could help you sort thru the research to find out which studies about "overdosing" have been discredited.
According to my onc, there's a lot of competition to see who gets their breast cancer iodine trial finished first.
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Light, I have not ridiculed anyone here and I never would. Many of the links either suggested or stated that increased iodine could prevent cancer and/or treat BC. It is not my idea. One of the sites either linked or summarized discussed how the overdoses were specifically for BC patients. That would certainly strongly imply a curative/therapeutic effect.
I followed the thread because I had looked into the iodine before, got sidetracked and never went back to it. When I saw the thread, I thought maybe it would bring something worthwhile to light that I had previously overlooked.
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Lucy, that is very interesting. Would you share some of that info?
As I have already posted many times, there clearly is recent research on the issue. None of it, however, supports some of the more exuberant claims made by various pro-iodine sites.
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I agree with Light. To dismiss a complementary therapy as if you've been studying it for years is disrespectful. You seem to sum up the dosages as if you've read every study and communicated with every iodine literate practitioner. Please, consider that some doctors have spent 20-30 years or more looking at iodine and the breast. After you've read their references, in a few years, maybe you could keep an open mind when you report back.
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Lucy, not at all. The info about doses is easily accessible and does not need years of research.
However, it would be great if you would be kind enough to share some info about which clinical trials are going on about the iodine issue.
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"The info about doses is easily accessible and does not need years of research."
Momine, with all due respect, how would you know what the info about doses is if you've only used Google? Google is for amateurs trying to get an answer in a day. You never learn any context from a Google surf.
There is a whole world of research out there with full text articles, bibliographies and correspondence between authors. There is also the behind-the-scenes-research world which is well-known among the principals because of conferences. I certainly am not going to share what my onc has provided me with. If the principals wanted the information broadcast to the masses it would be on Google.
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Lucy, with all due respect in turn, clinical trials are in the public domain, so this is no great secret. Besides, if your onc shared with you, it is also not classified information.
It is a well-known fact that large doses of iodine can cause health problems. Again, it is really not necessary to become a bio-chemist to find this out.
Google is a perfectly fine research tool. In order to understand the context, you obviously have to do more than google - you actually have to read some of the stuff you find. You also have to exercise some degree of source critique, read critically and yadda-yadda, as you no doubt know very well.
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Iodine competes for the same receptors on a cell as bromine, chlorine, fluoride. Bromine is present in flame retardants and electronics. So even if you live in a home without carpets, furniture or fabrics treated with retardants, everyone here is subject to bromide exposure simply because this is the internet and *some* sort of electronic device is required for access. Chlorine and fluoride are perhaps easier to avoid, but only if one can afford filtration devices in areas with water supplies treated with these chemicals.
These variables make 'dose' a bit of a moving target. Ultimately, it's what we absorb that will make the difference. Some people, like myself, can take a large dose and experience very low absorption rates.
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Althea, I completely agree on the absorption. One of the very detailed studies I saw suggested that low iodine in BC patients may be a metabolism side effect of the cancer rather than the cause of the cancer. It is a little like the vitamin D issue, I suspect. Bottom line seems to be that nobody quite knows how it works for the time being, but it is a subject of interest for many, which is good.
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Momine, I didn't say you were ridiculing, but because you were defending the people who were, I thought you might be able to answer my question about why you think that it's called for.
It really doesn't matter to me. I expect that by now, I was just asking because I thought you could give some insight into why someone would need to do that, and claim that someone is creepy when they don't reference one article, when they've already referenced 68 sources.
I don't think that article about the diet of Japanese women adequately
supports the fact that we need to take iodine either. Very lame example indeed.
It's all the other articles I've read in the last 2 years combined with
my own experience that has convinced me.0
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