STEAM ROOM FOR ANGER
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December11....I completely agree with you about both the anti-vaxxers and the anti-maskers.
nopink2019......Yep, I agree with you too about the non-vaxxed people. That whole crap about the tracking device being placed in vaccines never fails to make me laugh hard. How stupid do you have to be to believe that? It boggles the mind.
I read yesterday that Dr Fauci is considering lifting the mask recomendation. I very much disagree with this and absolutely dread that it might be lifted to soon for my comfort level. Of course my family will continue to double mask for as long as I determine it needs to be done (till the end of this year for certain) but I really wish it would just stay as an official requirement for a lot longer than it probably will be.
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Jaycee, I hear you. I am a strong advocate of the vaccine. However that doesn’t mean the vaccine is appropriate for everyone. It is heartbreaking to hear what you are going through and it is truly negligent and egregious that you were not given adequate information. I am so sorry for the struggles you are encountering, But I know that does nothing to mitigate the numerous issues you are dealing with.
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Thank you. I was calming down yesterday but today a FB friend posted that her neurologist told her not to get the J&J vaccine because it would "ramp up her immune system." How I wish someone has told me that. I'll get over it but I don't know when or how. What happened to me is no one's fault. Lots of people with MS got the vaccine. I worry about all the undiagnosed people who will get unexplained symptoms over the next few years.
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Jaycee49--I absolutely hear you and I'm so sorry for the issues you've had after being vaccinated. I have not had the vaccine and am not sure I will ever have it. If people don't like it, then that's their problem. This is my life and my body and my decision. My decision at this time is "no thanks."
It steams me that politics is allowed on this forum. People suffering with cancer treatment really don't need to hear the liberals versus conservative never-ending bullshit. The vitriol seems to permeate every effing thing in life these days and it is beyond tiresome.
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Jaycee, I hear you.I've read all of your posts about how J&J exacerbated your MS and I feel so bad about what you are going through. I don't post much anymore, but I wanted to acknowledge the severity of your side effects. J&J should be aware of your reaction. I have a relative with MS and she did okay withModerna. I hope that somehow you will return to your state of health before the vaccine.
Edited: I double checked and my relative with MS received Moderna.
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jaycee: I am so sorry that you had such a deleterious reaction to the vaccine. I am also sorry if you feel we have not been supportive or made you feel ignored. I am a strong advocate for all vaccinations - for whatever disease is lurking out there and can be stopped by a jab. The only way we'll ever see this pandemic in our rear view mirror is by having the majority of the population (of the whole world) vaccinated. Unfortunately there will always be someone who has an adverse and sometimes life-altering experience. You are entitled to feel angry that you happen to be one. You did your part and now are suffering consequences. But there are folks out there, with no chronic conditions except perhaps willful stupidity who are only going to prolong this pandemic and slow our return to some semblance of normalcy.
I truly hope that the issues you are having will remit and your pre-jab life will be restored.
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I'm angry that really bad things just randomly happen to people
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Thank you, moth. (I can't do names unless it happened in the last second.) I always regret it when I get into a discussion of this topic. I am pro-vaccine. But what happened to me made me think again. No one knows who is at risk for major side effects.
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jaycee - I'm so sorry that you're suffering so much after the J&J vaccine. Seeing someone else with MS warned off of that vaccine would make me angry as well. I hope your symptoms abate. You've stated you worry about those undiagnosed who may have symptoms in the future, but I'm more worried about those who will suffer from the disease now. Maybe it's because I live in Montreal which was the epicentre of covid deaths in Canada. With the vaccines, our infection rate is so much lower. Vaccinations have made a difference. Anyone with health conditions should check with their doctor, but the majority should be vaccinated.
I had my first dose of the Moderna vaccine over 3 weeks ago and have had a rash over several body parts (legs, arm, neck, chest, forehead, and eye area). It's severe enough that the pharmacy is reporting it. I'm hoping I just got the shot at the wrong time. It was during my Ibrance cycle, I already had a small rash from a bug bite, and I've been eating too much gluten which sometimes triggers a rash. It seems to be improving in that new little bumps that leak fluid have stopped appearing, but I still itch. I'm off gluten until this heals. I'm dreading getting the second dose, but I'll get it. I'll time it better and be gluten free before and after.
My husband had AZ with no side effects. My adult kids will be eligible this week. Hopefully they can get the Pfizer vaccine.
As for anti-vaxxers/anti-maskers, I don't understand them. They had a protest here that caused a large vax site to close early. Infuriating! Then I learned that some of the protesters were bussed in from hours away when the province put out an alert for those who participated. Apparently there were 5 covid+ people on those 2 buses. For hours. Contact tracing wasn't working because these people weren't cooperative. 🤦🏻Hope they stay home and stay away from the healthcare system.
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Jaycee, I hear you and I'm so sorry this has happened to you.
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jaycee,
Everyone is very sorry that you had such a strong negative reaction to the COVID vaccine. I do think that we all know that there are folks who cannot be vaccinated for medical reasons and we all respect that. It’s hard when we make decisions that turn out to have unexpected consequences. Life can seem so unfair and we never even know why. Take good care
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Jaycee, I, too, am so sorry for your suffering. You have been through so much and I pray you finding some relief.
LW422, I agree with you wishing political opinions were left out of this forum. I have the most wonderful friend group and between the ten of us we are evenly split on politics. Within this group of friends some have battled cancer, experienced deaths in their families, job losses or needed any support we have all just showered the friend, in need with love and support.
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Is it possible to be a skeptic without the label anti-vaxer being slammed on you? Is it possible to think there were other ways to handle this pandemic other than what we did without someone calling you an anti-masker? It seems to me name calling and label giving is something we should have learned not to do by grade 4, yet here we are. Anyone who does not fall in step with the grand narrative will be shamed, cowed, browbeaten, and gang raped into supporting the status quo. I saw snot nosed kids behaving this way in grade school when they had new Nikes and the 'outcast' kids didn't. I thought it was shitty then and I think it's shitty now.
I do not support the status quo. I don't.
Do I refuse to wear a mask? No. I wear one. I respect that others are afraid. But I also think their fear does not trump my freedoms. Yup, said it, FREEDOMS. I think a person's health is their own personal business and responsibility and you change your own life as a result of a perceived or real threat to yourself, but you have no business telling me that I owe it to you to change mine on your behalf. If that's how life is going to be played there are at least 12 people I know who ought to be lobotomized and sterilized for the greater public good but we decided a loooong time ago that that was a human rights violation. And we quit doing it. But somehow someone else's idea that I need to be vaccinated for their benefit isn't a human rights violation? I have a problem with this. A big one. Have I had a vaccination? No. Do I refuse to get one? No. I am most interested in the JJ, but it has not been offered in my area yet. But I have had it up to here with the bullying and belittling and self centered squawking that we all owe it to each other blah, blah, blah.
Listened to a doctor today saying that covid was not a romantic, pretty death and my mouth fell open. Where do they find these guys? Being crushed in a vehicle, caught in a PTO on a farm, slow organ failure from multiple diseases, my GOD how many times is death a romantic, pretty affair? What the fuck was this guy talking about? As a doctor he should have been hit in the mouth with a bedpan. As if we are all going to die lovely, poetic deaths when our hair is pretty and lipstick perfect? I have a much better chance of surviving covid than I do of this friggin cancer! How many of you expect your death from cancer to be like something you saw in the movies? As if the only people who suffer and die are covid patients. What a jackass he was.I do not care what anyone says, what data anyone points to, we DO NOT KNOW the long term effects of these vaccines. We DO NOT KNOW. Just like you don't know how tall your kid is going to be on the day they are born, maybe you can take a guess depending how tall mom and dad are. But it's going to take 14 - 18 years to make that final height conclusion and that is EXACTLY the same for these vaccines. WE DO NOT KNOW. There has not been enough time.
So I am the dissenting voice. The voice that says the damage done to our society and friendships and economies might be far worse than any death toll from this virus. The fact that side A thinks it's okay to spew venom on side B is a gross case of inhumane conduct. This is unknown waters and yet everyone acts like they have the holy inside truth. Truth is a tricky thing to determine and it seems the humility to admit we are stumbling in the dark has escaped most people. I am pretty sure that there are others who feel like I do, wary of how we have acted, wary of where we are going, but here on BCO it seems we have one way that is acceptable to think and one way only. What we have are best guesses, forecasts, truncated trials, shortened red tape, media who are prostitutes owned by govts and corporations or other media who are all lizard people and alien plots. What we have are opinions and emotions but no proof that what we have done is the right thing. The good thing. The wise thing. That is only going to come years from now and we will only glimpse it in a rear view mirror. I am certain that I am the only one who might say as much here, publicly. Because there is very little civil conduct when it comes to covid. There is no room for others who are not cheering on the bandwagon. Well, I am watching the bandwagon go by and I am trying to figure out to jump on or throw a lump of horse shit at it. It's very hard to make a decision with all the noise.
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There are people who cannot or should not have the vaccine. Jaycee, I am so sorry you had to find out in the worst possible way that you were one of them. But barring those medical reasons, I have no respect for anyone who won't get vaccinated or won't wear a mask, because THEY are the ones who don't care what happens to those who cannot get vaccinated. If they don't care about endangering their fellow humans, they are pretty crappy people. And I do not apologize for my stance. The political divide happened before Covid hit, it merely brought it onto people's doorsteps.
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alicebastable,
Word!
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Runor. I hear you.
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runor - It's possible to be skeptical without being an anti-vaxxer, but the protesters at the vax site had signs against the vax and masks. The shoe fits.
Vaccine hesitancy is understandable. Best to talk to a medical professional. Waiting for a specific vaccine is a risk. People are still dying of covid. In Quebec the average age of those dying keeps dropping as the older age groups have received their first dose. Getting vaccinated greatly reduces your risk of dying from covid. Being in a rural area may seem safe, but having fewer healthcare resources is not conducive to a good outcome if there's an outbreak. Some of those new variants are more infectious than the original.
No vaccine is ever 100% risk free, but the mRNA methodology is 30 years old. Once the virus was sequenced, the information was shared. The collaboration among scientists is new and hopefully continues. Trials were not truncated. There have been many vaccines in development with phases running almost concurrently instead of consecutively. Some vaccines were dropped from further study. With the high transmission rate, it was faster to get patients and get results. Less red tape? Yes. That's good. The vaccine development was efficient.
Personal freedom? Sure, up to a point. Have you never ever been vaccinated? Do you not wear a seat belt when driving? Do you go into stores without shoes and shirt and still get service? Do people smoke wherever they want? There are limits.
So you heard a doctor say dying from covid is bad. I hesitate to criticize a doctor who has seen covid patients. Many have been traumatized. Some have had to care for their own colleagues. My SIL has worked on covid patients for over a year. She's the one who let patients talk to their families before intubating them. She wants as many people as possible to get vaccinated. No, not everyone can. That's true of all vaccines. But more vaccinations means she witnesses fewer deaths.
I don't know that cancer will be the death of me. Not denying that it could kill me, but I'm not in that moment. I've thought of my death since I was a child. Cancer can get in line with the other contenders. But I don't trust my immune system. I follow the public health measures including getting vaccinated because if I catch it, I'm more likely to die of covid than cancer. I've been dealing with cancer for over 5 years without a single overnight hospital stay. Covid would probably break that streak. Kinda small and selfish reason to get vaccinated, right? My family is getting vaccinated for me. I'm glad. I don't want them to get sick because of the possibility of long term effects that resemble cancer treatment effects.
There are perfectly selfish reasons to be vaccinated. No need to claim it a noble deed done for the public good. Those refusing to vaccinate when they can but relying on others to do it for them have a higher opinion of people than I do. Hope I'm wrong for the people who need herd immunity.
I wear a mask now. I actually like them. When the mask requirement is dropped, I will keep my masks for public transit, high pollen days, and cleaning out the garage. Also handy in case of impromptu bank heists. Again entirely selfish reasons.
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SerenitySTAT, Great post. Agree 100%
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I am in agreement with AliceBastable and SerenitySTAT on this one. Yes, there are risks associated with any vaccine but the risks of not receiving a vaccine against a potential killer are far greater. Ask my DB who slept upright for 2 months so he could breathe while he was recovering from Covid prior to the vaccine being available. He took all sorts of precautionary measures and still managed to find the one person who was able to transmit it to him.
Ask the nurses's and doctors who have had to deal with PPE shortages, being forced to reuse PPE that is meant for single use only, spending 12 hours a day wearing a mask (and then having to store it in a paper bag to be reused for x number of reuses), watching people struggle to breathe and when they could no longer do it on their own have to be placed on a ventilator. Most who require a ventilator cannot be weaned off them and believe me, if you find wearing a mask to be a challenge, try having a ventilator breathe for you. How long before you grow weary of wearing a mask short-term? Try wearing it for 12 hours straight.
Try 12 hour shifts and then limiting both food and fluid intake because getting in and out of PPE garb takes a considerable amount of time, removes you from the bedside and thus patient care, staffing shortages, etc. Imagine having to self-isolate from your family because the vaccine is not available and you don't want to expose your vulnerable family. All those involved in providing care to those stricken with covid (nurses, doctors, environmental services staff, lab staff, etc) need to be heard; they have taken care of you and "now they want the public to take care of them". They have been on the frontlines for over a year and while the numbers of cases and related deaths are declining, many of them have lost loved ones, co-workers, and had to deal with distraught families who never got to say goodbye to their loved ones. How many have developed PTSD? For over a year they have been asked to make unbelievable sacrifices as required by their professions (and moreso their personal moral code), and they did. However, there reaches a point where if there is vaccine available that can prevent severe illness or death for some and lessen the degree of illness in others and people decline to receive it, should we still expect the healthcare profession to make these same sacrifices? They like us may have underlying disease processes, may have had or have BC, etc and their risk is still higher because they are being asked to provide care to those who opt to not vaccinate. They would never deny you access to care, but what does it say about your respect for them as an individual and as a health care provider? Not much IMHO.
The full impact of the sequelae of having had a Covid infection is just now being identified. People have lost the sense of smell and taste and for some it will be permanent. They have just identified some who have now developed diabetes post-infection. In addition to the unconscionable number of deaths associated with Covid, it will be years before we will recognize the toll it is taking on those who were infected and survived. So are you noble if you got the vaccine? Not in my book, just smart and recognizing that there are some aspects of our health that we can own.
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SerenitySTAT - nail meets head - thank you
jaycee49 - double whammy for you, I'd be just as frustrated and mad. If people with MS shouldn't take it, they should be warned!
SerenitySTATE: I've had the same general conversation with my very healthy 26 year old son. He doesn't trust government, BUT, if they are fully approved by the FDA he'll get vaccinated. So he says. Pfizer is going for full approval this month, and last I checked, the FDA was a government entity. It moved too fast? Like you said, RNA people!!
If this disease didn't travel through air, all we'd have to do is wash our hands and not kiss each other. Since it does travel through the air, wearing a mask or getting a vaccine that by the way, is showing by the numbers that it works, consequently does help our fellow citizens and helps us squash the disease. I got the Pfizer vaccine and from what I read in a study from Israel, it is highly possible, it's the vaccine that makes you immune. You don't get asymptomatic either.
My rant is that those who refused to wear a mask helped develop the variants. They remind me of the people who won't take the full regimen of antibiotics, making those bacterial infections more resistant to our antibiotics! COVID directly affected my business to a point where I might have to go back and get a job, giving up my dream of being independent. I'm 60 now, not a lot of time left to beef up the ol' retirement account. >:(
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AliceBastable, I am with you, and I don't apologize either for wanting a safer society for everyone specially for vulnerable people who don't have a choice to get vaccinated or not.
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Risk vs. benefit for me. I'm over a week out from my 2nd dose of Moderna. No side effects other than a sore arm. Corona viruses aren't new and neither is mRna research and trials. I truly hope I'm dead before the next air borne disease comes around. I have a friend with no underlying conditions who caught it in March, her daughter called the ambulance and she was real close to being intubated. 12 days hospitalized. Her follow ups are CT scan, pulmonologist and a cardiologist. Either way, there's going to be some long term effects of this. I'll take my chances with the shot.
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A client told me that it's not really a vaccine your getting ...it's only water. Another said it's against his rights. I work in a dental office so as part of the health history review we ask people if they have had covid, been exposed or are vaccinated. Idk where people get these stupid, ignorant ideas. Thankfully many of the people we are seeing have had the vaccine.
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"Those refusing to vaccinate when they can but relying on others to do it for them have a higher opinion of people than I do. Hope I'm wrong for the people who need herd immunity."
SerentityStat, great post, and the line I've quoted above sums up the issue for me, and ties it to the problems that Jaycee's situation have highlighted.
Jaycee, you absolutely should have been told about the risks for you from the vaccine because you have MS. This was a mistake on someone's part, and you are certainly paying the price. To my way of thinking, someone with MS who chooses not to have the vaccine, or any vaccine, is not the same as an anti-vaxxer. This is true of anyone with any health condition that makes them particularly vulnerable to side effects from vaccines. In fact, as a society, it is for these individuals that herd immunity becomes so important.
Moving away from the Covid vaccine and onto vaccines more generally, and particularly childhood vaccines, the biggest voices against the anti-vaxxers are parents who have children who for health reasons cannot be vaccinated. Measles, mumps, whooping cough and chicken pox were virtually wiped out by vaccines. Now all 4 diseases have made a comeback, as fewer children have been getting their childhood vaccines. This reduces herd immunity, and the children most impacted are those who already are health-compromised and are therefore physically unable to be vaccinated. If a parent of a healthy child chooses to not have their child vaccinated, I'll certainly feel really bad for that kid if he or she gets mumps or measles. But if that kid passes the disease to a child with cancer who could not be vaccinated, to me, that edges on criminal responsibility on the part of the parents who didn't vaccinate their healthy child.
There certainly are differences with Covid, in that this is a new disease (although Coronaviruses are not new) with new vaccines using new technology (although, as pointed out, mRNA vaccines have been studied in animal and human clinical trials for 30 years). But to me the basic principle is the same in that if all of those who aren't particularly worried about Covid for themselves refuse to be vaccinated, we will never achieve herd immunity. And that will result in avoidable deaths among those who are susceptible to Covid but are physically unable to take the vaccine. People who have MS, for example.
For anyone interested in the history of mRNA vaccines, following is a fascinating article. It's from 2018, so it's before Covid and therefore wasn't written with an bias based on the the current pandemic.
mRNA vaccines — a new era in vaccinology
What's really interesting to me is that this technology is critical to the development of cancer vaccines. In fact, mRNA technology has been seen as possibly having more potential for cancer vaccines than for infectious disease vaccines. Included in the article is a long list of clinical trials underway using this technology in cancer vaccines.
"The first proof-of-concept studies that not only proposed the idea of RNA cancer vaccines but also provided evidence of the feasibility of this approach were published more than two decades ago. Since then, numerous preclinical and clinical studies have demonstrated the viability of mRNA vaccines to combat cancer."
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from a cancer pt perspective, pts in active treatment are at higher risk of complications and death from covid than the general population so we are not illogically fearful, we have all the reason in the world to be interested in public health measures which protect us, including mass vaccination campaigns which will lower transmission rates in the community. & the thing is public health requires public participation and support. We have sewage and clean water and air quality standards because of public health - because we all work together for those things.
Videos from overwhelmed Italian hospitals in spring 2020 and now the Indian hospitals - it all makes me so mad. Italy was just unlucky, being the first western country that was hit hard. But India is a failure of public health, stirred up by a deranged populist and misinformation. There are videos on the news channels of people dying in Indian hospital waiting rooms. It is definitely not a good death. I get what the dr was trying to say - some people legit think it's: " they just stop breathing and die". It's long and miserable, even here in our ICUs.
My MO gave me a DNR/DNI to sign when covid hit. My chances of ever getting off a vent are close to 0 so ... yeah, it makes me mad that people won't mask or vaccinate to keep me & others safe & get this under control. I don't want to die of cancer but I sure as hell would be pissed if covid took me before the cancer does.
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I mean we all run the odds on risk vs probability. Runor chooses to stay on tamoxifen, I chose otherwise. I got vaccinated (reactive airway disease here), she's not.
The difference is if my cancer recurs, it's not something any of you would catch. If runor gets COVID, she can definitely spread it.
(And saying again--not being able to get vaccinated is not the same as saying I won't, and waiting a bit also isn't the same as saying I won't)
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Jaycee - I am sorry that the vaccine was devastating for you and that risk is not better understood. I hope you heal soon with no longterm SEs.
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I must have read runor's post differently, because I didn't read anti-vax. What I really heard was anti-rudeness (name-calling, browbeating, polarizing behavior)
...none of which was displayed in the follow-on responses, thank goodness.
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SeeQ, that's interesting because rudeness is one of the reasons the people who are against vaccines and masks give me the shits. Ever heard the term "mask hole"? That's what "side B" calls "side A." And I could go on and on with examples of the venom spewed from them.
I need to add: Which, of course, wasn't displayed in any posts here, but it is out there other places.
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