The Metabolic Approach in Conjunction with Standard of Care
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Wavesofharmony,
Thanks for posting the keto-care trial presentation. It looks like the trial was completed in May 2021. Do you know if they published the findings?
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Thanks Waves,
Can't wait to watch those clips. I can tell you are feeling better today and I"m so glad
I'm currently reading this book by Drs. Stengler and Anderson which references the Warburg Effect and biochemical geneticist Dr. Thomas Seyfried's contributions to cancer research including staying on a keto diet which deprives cancer cells of glucose which "activates a metabolic and signaling amplification loop leading to cell death" according to researchers at UCLA with collaborators at Memorial Sloan Kettering and Weill Cornell Medical College. Molecular Systems Biology, 2012 Jun 26, 8:589, https://doi.org/10.1038/msb.2012.20.
My IMD has had me on the metabolic approach since Day 1, in conjunction with my traditional treatment. I'll be happy to message you.
Blessings,
Esther
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Waves - thank you for this thread it is very enlightening. While I don't formally fast, I generally go 12-13 hrs between dinner and breakfast. I have reduced sugar and carbs but don't think I can ever go true Keto, I seem to need a higher level of carbs for energy. I do however need to up my game on exercising. Have really slacked off. You and all on this thread are inspiring me to get back at it.
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Rah2464,
There are so many benefits for the body fighting cancer in using ketone bodies to fuel the body. When the body uses fat as fuel and produces ketones, the cancer cells are chronically stressed because the cancer cells cannot use ketones for fuel. This stress causes the cancer cells to die and they are unable to build an environment to spread.
Becoming fully keto can be scary when your body has been accustomed to using glucose for fuel. For most people it takes about 2-3 weeks for their body to switch over to using fat for fuel. And people who are anti-keto will spread stories about how difficult the process can be. But there are ways to navigate through the process with a thoughtful plan, especially paying attention to electrolytes. If you are interested in guidance, feel free to private message me
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NorCalS,
I haven’t seen published results from this study yet. I believe it is still going through some review process. I know from my conversations with the researchers that the majority of the women who participated with the clinical trial had positive results. Their follow up with some of the women revealed that they went on to active lifestyles including doing things like CrossFit.
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Regarding HBOT - during chemo I used it in conjunction with High dose Vitamin C IV therapy. The HBOT amplifies the C's pro-oxidant effect. I had chemo every three weeks (Carboplatin/Taxotere). I would get High-dose C 2x pr week, the day after chemo and a few days after that. HBOT first, then straight to my IV.
Re Keto: I did keto - a whole foods pescatarian version (low meat/cheese/eggs due to diet recommendations). I was definitely in ketosis (used test strips to check.). I did fasting mimicking before every chemo. Following the fast I DID eat nutrient-dense carbs, because this is part of "rebuild"-- sweet potato, lentil, quinoa/ more berries, stone fruits-- for 5-6 days, then, I went back to keto until my next fast/chemo.
The integrative Oncologist who advised me was an Oncologist/ Integrative MD called Dr Keith Block, the Block Center, in Skokie Ill. He does consults and second opinions and takes insurance. Busy man so it takes a bit of lead time to get in. In 2018 it was 1800 for a consult. You get 4 hours of one on one advice about everything, a bunch of info about diet including recipes, and the consult includes one hour w/ Dr Block himself. Thereafter you can get a phone consult for a reasonable price if you need one. He is a sweet, caring doctor.
He gives chemo in very innovative ways such as a slooooow drip for 24 hours from a fanny-pack. He gives curcumin in IV. Those can't be duplicated at home but most of his methods can be. He sees a great many stage 4 people who are told they can't be treated anymore, and has ways of helping them rebuild their system to be able to take chemo again.
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The foundation for understanding the metabolic approach to cancer:
“Cancer, above all other diseases, has countless secondary causes. But, even for cancer, there is only one prime cause. Summarized in a few words, the prime cause of cancer is the replacement of the respiration of oxygen in normal body cells by a fermentation of sugar.” ~Otto Warbur
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Great info WOH. Walking is also the number one exercise to build your bone mass (according to my endo)
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Santabarbarian, I hope everyone going through chemo READS your posts and adds a good integrative doctor to their team for those important synergistic benefits.
Rah, walking is saving me
I just recently learned about the importance of stomping and grounding (walking on beach or on grass with shoes off). That vibration jolt to our bones helps strengthen them. My doctor demonstrated it for me in her office by banging her forearm on the table. It was so loud that the waiting room patients probably wondered what was happening in there.I just bought my first keto urine strips! I am looking forward to seeing how I am doing in the mornings, and if I am in ketosis. I am getting a ton of energy from the keto diet. The metabolic approach (which we will all describe as this thread continues) has enormously benefitted my cancer treatment. It has given me demonstrable results, achievable goals, uplifted my spirits, and has made my entire family healthier.
I love knowing that it is metabolically stressing any cancer cells. If I did NOT make a change to my metabolic cellular health, then after treatment is done, my body would have gone right back to what it did before and form another tumor.
Wow Santabarbarian, you had the famous Dr. Block as your doctor?! That's amazing! No wonder you have done so well. I love that you continued each important therapy during toxic chemo. I wish everyone going through chemo knew there was something they can do that helps with side effects and makes the chemo more effective. I am doing the same through radiation, but I have not added HBOT yet. I need to call them this week.
For now, during radiation my doctor has me on:
1. Twice weekly IV C (50g)
2. Weekly chelations on Fridays.
3. Systemic Enzymes (10 per day) on an empty stomach, am and pm. I take VitalzymXe ($) or Vascuzyme ($) interchangeably.
4. Digestive Enzymes with every meal, FOREVER. So crucial for Blood Type A (I am Type A)
5. Melatonin cream: I apply melatonin cream (200mg) to the skin each night before bed.It is kept in the fridge and feels nice and cool. Was pricy but I decided to go for it based on the studies.
6. Juice Plus: She has me continuing Juice Plus powdered fruits and veggies. She was a published researcher on JP and has been involved in JP studies with remarkable results, so she has been on it for 20 years, compared to my 10 months. Most of our immune system is in our gut, and I had terrible digestive problems when diagnosed which tells you I did not have a healthy gut microbiome. JP and a good probiotic (Probiotic 225 powder), the right amount of water and getting off of food sensitivities all cleared it up.
Blessings,Esther
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Wavesofharmony, Otto Warbur came up with his hypothesis about the primary cause of cancer some 90+ years ago. Science has evolved since. This hypothesis is not supported by science any longer.
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muska,
I believe, based on all of the research I have read over the past year and a half, that multiple researchers around the world have helped build on Otto Warburg’s work. Most noteably the work of Pendersen, Ko, and Seyfried. They have all found that cancer cells do not use oxidative processes but instead use the ancient fuel process of fermentation. Even James Watson, who opened the world of genetics that lead to the idea that cancer is a genetic disease, has modified his own thinking and he has called for continued research along the metabolic avenue.
Can you share the research that counters or disproves Warburg’s research findings? I would love to delve into it
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Wavesofharmony, I don't disagree with what you said above but this is not the same as saying
“Cancer, above all other diseases, has countless secondary causes. But, even for cancer, there is only one prime cause. Summarized in a few words, the prime cause of cancer is the replacement of the respiration of oxygen in normal body cells by a fermentation of sugar." ~Otto Warbur
Simply put, causation - no, could some of the approaches be used as a way to slow the disease progression- maybe, as any other approach yet to be proven.
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I love the discussion. My money's on Waves. I watched another great Boston College PPT lecture on this very topic last week by biochemical geneticist Dr. Thomas Seyfried who is revered in American cancer research and revived Dr. Warburg's earlier analysis because of what we now know that Warburg did not. I apologize for not remembering the particular aspect to which Dr. Seyfried was referring. I knew exactly what it was a week ago, but apparently nothing is staying in my brain that long right now because it gets pushed out by so many studies I've read since then. I must be running out of cloud storage
Waves is way ahead of me in this research as is Santabarbarian. I am only just beginning, and trying to keep up with these amazing cancer scientists. I will post the link once I find it. Blessings today,
Esther
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muska,
I cannot be in Warburg's head but I interpret what he was saying as it is the process where cell respiration (with oxygen) is replaced with the fermentation of sugar. There have been some brilliant studies examining these processes. Yes, Esther, some of them done by Thomas Seyfried. When you dig much deeper into the metabolic approaches for managing cancer you find that it IS multi-factored because cancer is a complex disease. Most of us had multiple metabolic pathways and epigenetic expressions that allowed the cancer cells to take hold. This can be viewed through a lens of the hallmarks of cancer: sustained proliferation signaling, evading growth suppression, resisting cell death, immortal replication, the creation of new blood vessel avenues for transportation (angiogenesis), taking over new areas of the body (metastasis), reprogramming energy metabolism (fermentation), and evading immune destruction. An added layer of complexity comes with the tumor microenvironment. Many of the processes involved with these hallmarks are actually things we can change through our diet and lifestyle. You said that these strategies haven't been proven. Have there been large clinical trials or population studies? No. We are still too early up this side of the metabolic nature of cancer mountain. I am doing my part by participating in a comprehensive study through the hospital where I receive my standard of care treatment. So, the fact that my tumor markers have gone from a very high level to below normal in a relatively short period of time (and healing bone mets) with the combination of metabolic strategies with standard of care is part of my record. The metabolic approaches (nutrition & lifestyle) have enhanced my standard of care treatments with minimal side effects and have significantly improved the quality of my life. In my book, a win.
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I love that, Waves. That's phenomenal news and I'm glad you are part of that valuable study. I appreciate too, your description of all of the metabolic pathways and epigenetic factors. I have already learned of several in my own tumor formation. I've made several critical changes already, now that I better understand my cellular landscape. I'm ready for healthier mitochondria!
Still haven't found the link I was looking for, but I was reading this in the radiation waiting room earlier today.
"According to Nobel Prize winning scientist, Dr. Otto Warburg, there are prime and secondary causes of disease... by a prime cause Dr. Warburg means a cause that is present in every case of the disease. (Read Dr. Warburg's thesis on the prime cause of cancer.) Dr. Warburg states that cancer has countless secondary causes; but only one prime cause. Summarized in just a few words, the prime cause of cancer is a metabolic disease — the replacement of the respiration of oxygen in normal body cells by the fermentation of sugar for energy creation."
https://oxygen4cells.com/warburg.htm
I am type A and my MD is convinced it was the most significant metabolic factor that created an environment allowing for the cancer to progress. She said after 40 years of practice she's found that her Type A's seem to get cancers first before her other patients. Her type Bs are the ones who get more allergies. She has me taking digestive enzymes with every meal from now on so that I start getting the nutrients out of it, and when my food is presented to the intestines, it's actually digested from now on which will be easier for my immune system to sort out since so much of it is in the gut. Systemic enzymes to clear out cellular debris, which I'm pretty sure wasn't happening before my diagnosis.
Blessings,
Esther
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Esther,
The big genetic factors for my cancer are mutations in tumor suppression and detoxification cycles. The emotional factors include years of chronic stress and the tendency to not express anger/ruminate on the anger. Physiologic factors include years of excess body fat (a great haven for old estrogen to hide) and Epstein Barr Virus in adolescence. Over the years I have learned to use the symptoms of the reactivation of the EBV as an indicator of a heightened stress response. Since my diagnosis I have worked on various strategies to keep that stress response in check. Many of the metabolic strategies I have used really help address many of these factors. The nutrition and lifestyle/movement have significantly reduced my body fat, leaving less area for old estrogen to hide. Like you, I have been taking systemic enzymes. In addition I regularly use infrared sauna for additional detoxification.
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Very interesting discussion here. In my case, I can point to high stress, reduced exercise and poor diet in the years leading up to my DCIS diagnosis, causing an overall decline in my metabolic health, although I looked ok on the outside and was unaware of the damage that was happening inside. I know that my body became severely undernourished, from nutritional tests done in the months after the diagnosis. These are not tests that the typical doctor will run, you have to work with a nutritionist to get a full panel done. It is difficult to prove the benefits of diet and lifestyle in clinical trials as opposed to drugs for various reasons, and there are so many ways that statistics can be manipulated that I keep an open mind on everything. I always remember the sugar debate - it has only been in recent years that doctors have come to accept that lifestyle/diet can reverse Type 2 diabetes, not just drugs, and there is still opposition to this point of view. Researchers knew how toxic sugar/carbs could be decades ago but the research was squelched by those promoting the Standard American Diet.
I now do experiments on myself using low-cost lab tests, working with a nutritionist. For example, I tried quitting my Vitamin D supplement (I was low and was able to raise it with the supplement) and seeing if sun several times a week would do the trick. No luck, my level dropped right back down. It showed me that my aging body is just not efficient enough to get nutrients needed to optimize metabolic health without some intervention. My nutritionist also recommended digestive enzymes for me because my digestive system seems to have a hard time pulling out the vitamins/minerals. I may try them, I haven't yet, I'm now working to get my cholesterol under control. Tamoxifen did not help me and messed up my liver. I have gotten my blood sugar under control, which went haywire on Tamoxifen, by adopting a low-carb diet. I am now working on the cholesterol piece by incorporating more fiber, taking plant stanols, etc. I haven't said I absolutely will not take medication but right now, I'm focused on getting my metabolic health optimized through diet, exercise (emphasizing strength training) and lifestyle.
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PAKNC,
Thanks for joining the conversation. You reminded me of another big metabolic pathway I forgot to mention as a factor for me…insulin resistance. My blood sugar levels never raised any alarms but no one was regularly looking at my insulin. I have no doubt that I was in earlier stages of insulin resistance. They (researchers) say that it typically takes elevated insulin levels 10 years before diabetes is evident.
The researchers I have worked with have told me that breast cancers' metabolic pathways are very similar to diabetes, so doing all of those things that reduce/reverse diabetes also work well for managing breast cancer.
Coda: I am working on a book examining how to become an experiment of 1 (N of 1) to manage and thrive in spite of cancer. This is how I have put together my own plan. With clear goals/objectives/procedures I can evaluate what is working for me and moving me in the direction I want to go.
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we can do everything right and still get cancer. Then do every thing right and still get a metastatic recurrence and die.
A metastatic poster called zarovka tried all sorts of things to get her cancer under control but nothing worked and she died. Another poster has had mets a long time and is the first to say she has done nothing other than take the meds her MO prescribed.
We can't control our cells. We cant control the mutations they undergo. Some of the epigenetic factors which lead to mutations might have occurred in utero or before we were born (in the ovaries and testes of our parents)
I'm interested only in peer revirewed data, preferably RCT but will take good observational studies. Theres so much fraud out there, so much peddling of fake hope, so much n=1. It's exhausting to wade through.
And real legitimate research dies on the bench and doesn't make it to bedside all the time because things that made sense in theory, and were validated in vitro, completely fizzled in human experiments. So novel theories, or old recycled theories dont excite me - give me a phase 3 trial.
We simply don't know what makes exceptional reposnders.
And FWIW, my bet on what the cancer revolution will be is that it will have to do with CAR-T or other ways of manipulating innate immunity through genetic engineering.
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moth,
I am certainly approaching my metastatic breast cancer with wide open eyes. My Oncology Team is never going to say I am “cured,” nor would I ever believe that. I know this will be a lifelong condition for me to manage. Is it possible for the cancer to become active again, to spread, etc.? Definitely. From that perspective I would never tell someone else that a metabolic approach would cure them.
From the time of my diagnosis my therapist asked me about my ultimate goal. My response was to live with the best quality of life for as possible. Using metabolic strategies has, to date, helped me achieve that goal. My experiment of 1, with defined objectives, allows me to systematically evaluate what is working for me. And when something isn’t working for me I can assess which variables to change and modify the plan. I am also able to see how what I do supports the standard of care treatments I receive.I am fortunate to receive care from an Oncology Team at a large research/teaching hospital that specializes in breast cancers. In fact, my Oncologist is the chairman of the clinical trial committee, so he is well aware of all of the relevant peer reviewed research. My entire Team is very supportive of using metabolic strategies in conjunction with standard of care because they have seen firstthat their patients who do this tolerate treatments (no matter what those are) much better and have better outcomes; longer survival and quality of life.
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Thee biggest change for me of the anti-inflammatory practices is being pain free at nearly 60. I had plenty of little aches and pains prior to getting cancer and changing my diet. Now, no pain! Though fit, I was definitely inflamed then, and feel much better now.
Remember, with metabolic pathways, the cancer can adapt to other fuels just like healthy cells can. It's just another arrow in the quiver and it's better for your general health.
For people here interested in complimentary practices: HEAT aka "hyperthermia" is one that is not discussed enough. High heat (108-111 degrees) for an hour or more makes cancer cells give off "heat shock protein" which makes them recognizable to immune system. Since I adore a 105 degree hot tub, I had a sense of how hot 108 would be. My tumors were right there where I could feel them in my side boob/armpit. So a few times I week, especially prior to chemo, I put a very-hot hot water bottle on the area (to the point of mild sunburn like burns). Your healthy cells can go to 113 without permanent damage. But cancer hates heat.
For tumors internal to body, doctors can do probes for heat and or they can heat your blood in one area only and recirculate it, or heat all of you (under medical supervision). The U MD Cancer center, among others, has a dept for hyperthermia.
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I am so happy for this thread. Let's talk about enzymes!
And PAKNC, you are right on. Big pharma has plenty of money for funding drug studies, but no interest in diet/exercise studies, so that won't be happening. And, the Standard American Diet really is SAD. I loved your Vitamin D experiment!
You said, "I can point to high stress, reduced exercise and poor diet in the years leading up to my DCIS diagnosis, causing an overall decline in my metabolic health, although I looked ok on the outside and was unaware of the damage that was happening inside." That was exactly my experience. Waves mentioned stress, too, and mine was c h r o n i c. Egads, it was bad. It becomes a huge risk factor that takes such a toll on our bodies. I have learned to ask for help and to accept help when it is offered (sounds like such a little thing, but it was a big step for me). My cortisol levels went from 27 at diagnosis down to 6 last month. A lot of that is thanks to my remarkable IMD (Dr. E) who has 40 years of experience helping patients heal from cancer and other chronic diseases. I know because I meet them three times a week at the IV infusion suite where I get to hear their remarkable recovery stories and see how well they are doing. Over the decades she has trialed many treatments among her patient base.I'm so grateful to be on this path!!
About enzymes... two kinds:
1. Systemic (proteolytic) enzymes, taken on an empty stomach:
Waves, you mentioned systemic enzymes, which we both take. What kind do you take? I'm taking VItalzymXE for now. My doctor uses VitalzymXe from Japan for her patients but it is expensive. The owners of the company flew out from Japan to meet with her, and based on her recommendations they created Vascuzyme which is more affordable, and she is finding it just as effective in her patient base, so when someone is just starting on enzymes, I usually recommend Vascuzyme, though both are quite good. For anyone who is just starting on enzymes, they are so good but they lead to a healthy detoxification in your body, so you want to start with one, then two, etc. and drink plenty of water. I take 10 per day because I'm just out of surgery and need to break down a lot of scar tissue/fibrin from that and radiation.
2. Digestive enzymes: (advice I've taken from my IMD)
After 50, we all need the help of digestive enzymes in order to properly digest the nutrients from our food. PAKNC, I highly recommend starting on them.
As we age, we have less and less of these beauties in our stomachs to get the juices flowing and digest our food. Plus, if we are eating heated foods a lot, we are cooking or microwaving out the enzymes right out of the foods, which makes things worse.
Type A blood type (which I am) especially need digestive enzymes with every meal, to help us break down our fats and proteins. According to my IMD, generally speaking, A's don't digest our nutrients as well and this greatly affects our metabolic health, our immune system, gut function and inflammation levels.
I take two Ortho Digestzyme capsules by Ortho Molecular with every meal. There is also a vegan version.
I'm so happy for this thread!
Blessings on your day,
Esther
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very interesting santabarbarian. I would assume vigorous exercise and a good sweat most days of the week is a good idea. I know that's not the temperatures you are talking but it can't hurt!
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santabarbian,
I have not heard the specifics you shared about hyperthermia temperatures. I personally use infrared sauna sessions to that end. Generally at temperatures of 130-135 degrees Fahrenheit. The sauna unit we have does 3 different levels (near, mid and far) infrared. Thanks for that information. I will delve deeper.
Ma halo
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Esther,I too am taking VitazymXE that I source from Emerson Ecologics
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My integrative oncologist had me doing interval training (hiking = natural intervals) 2-3 X per week, stretching (pilates or yoga) 2-3 x, walk every day, Omega 3 pre- and pro-biotics, many plant based antioxidants like quercetin, curcumin, ALA, Ubiquinol, Calcium D glucarate... a TON more... (for longer list see "Success stories" thread in TNBC forum, page 6). Melatonin, metformin. Sleep in cold room, pitch black.
Diet was nearly vegan/ whole foods... Low meat, low dairy, one egg yolk max per week (whites ok). Super Greens powder, Whey protein isolate. Focused on filling my plate with anticancer vegan whole foods like alliums, cabbages, ginger, mushrooms, fermented foods, greens, colors, berries, nuts. Avocado & oils. Deep Sea fish. No booze sugar or 'white' foods. All nutrient dense. Quinoa/sweet potato as nutrient-dense carbs, during 'rebuild' after fasting. But otherwise, low carb/ edge of keto.
I was not recommended to take enzymes.
My only deficiency upon diagnosis was D-- and that was odd since I go outside for exercise AND drank milk with D. Is there an enzyme that unlocks D3? I am A blood. I used to eat meat but now eat almost no meat.
I have loosened up now after crossing year 3 post Dx...kept up supplements for 2.5 years.... then tapered. Did vitamin C intermittently after treatment too. I still eat very well. I still work out 4-5 x per week, which is enjoyable. I intermittent fast now daily and do a fasting mimic 5 day 'fast' once every 3 months. These practices are sustainable as I like having no aches and pains and being more lean. Now I'll have a piece of cake or an alcoholic drink when I feel like one... but way less then before. .
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santabarbian,
It sounds like you have a great plan! When I initially worked with a Naturopathic Physician she had me on more of a vegetarian version of keto, with little meat or saturated fat and extremely low carbohydrate. Following this plan made my cancer worse and made me feel miserable. I was fatigued and nauseous all the time. When I added good quality meat and saturated fat back into my diet with a little higher carbohydrate, I started feeling so much better.
I do resistance training 3 days a week, with that being a mixture of free weights, body weight, kettlebell, balance/stability and short bursts of high intensity. My cardio consists of vigorous walking (I make a point to get up every hour to move at least 10 minutes), hiking, and Spinning. We also fit in a Pilates Reformer session at least once a week. We are just now getting into some different mobility exercises using mobility sticks and Indian Clubs. Being physically active does a lot to stave off my tendencies toward depression. And feeling lean and strong is an emotional pick up.
I like that you mentioned sleep because that is something that isn’t discussed much. We sleep in a colder room with blackout shades and an air purifier that adds white noise to block out any noise outside. No electronics in the bedroom. We also use a magnesium supplement called MetaRelax just before bed and I take a GABA supplement for better sleep quality.
Ma halo
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I'm vegan and doing keto while vegan is technically possible but it's a pita and I'm just not convinced.
The heat is interesting. We have a hot tub but I hardly ever use it - it's my dh's thing. He uses it daily. I really should start.
re vitamin D - I have to supplement. Canada just is a bit too far north to really get good UV synthesis, even though I've been walking with the dogs daily for years and years. When I was diagnosed with osteopenia after stage I treatment it was super low. I've been on 2000IU daily for years now and it's still hovering in the lower end of acceptable range.
afaik, green tea and exercise are the only proven interventions for reducing risk of recurrence in triple neg. Didn't work for me but I'm still trying them in case it slows my mets.
I gotta say exercise is a whole different thing when you're on chemo for 18 mos straight. The fatigue is insane & each treatment (i'm on chemo every 21 days, immuotherapy every 14 days right now) destroys so many good cells that it's hard to recover in between treatments. I feel like I'm working hard just to stay in the same place.
I read about a study being done in Germany about fasting for chemo. It's for gyne cancers not breast but I liked reading through it because it had details in the supplementals about the food and the protocol. I don't know. I get very faint and cranky when I don't eat. I hated it when I had to do fasting blood work for my clinical trial - & that was only not eating when I got up lol.
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