Is anyone else an atheist with BC besides me?
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guitargirl, I'm not into hats but have bought every color bandanna possible. I also have a couple of knit hats that are more comfy around the house and at night. I read about your radiation burns and wonder if I will develop that problem when I do radiation in August and September. Flopping is Not OK and I need my treadmill time for weight control and sanity management. If you bought an exercise bra a size larger, I suppose it would still have the tendency to rub somewhere. On the other hand, I like to hit the gym around 4AM so I probably wouldn't be real noticeable without a lot of bra support.
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collector - everyone is different with radiation. I am really fair (read think about sun & get a sun burn) and was surprised that I didn't get any reaction till the last week. So stock up on lots of aloe gel (cvs has some real cheap), put it on day & night & right after treatment. It won't prevent burns, but it's the best thing for them.
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I would have to add, respectfully, "Just because you believe in God, doesn't mean he exists".
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I would have to add, respectfully, "Just because you believe in God, doesn't mean he exists".
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Mary-Lou
Pulaski, Va
User since: 8 Nov 2005
1330 CommentsMary-Lou's Comment:
2 Mar 2008 02:25 AM
I just wanted to add,
I believe with all my heart that God walks with me each and every step of my life. I'm not perfect, by all means. And maybe it doesn't matter so much while I'm here on earth.
But I would rather believe in something that may not be real, then not believe and find out to late that it is.
Hell scares me more than any type cancer would by a 1000 times over and then some.
Coltsneck wrote:
With all due respect, Mary-Lou, just because you believe in God doesn't mean he exists. I think your last sentence reveals more about the origin and continuation of belief in God. Most religions are fear-based and that is how alot of undesireable behavior is controlled. I'm glad you have a belief to hold onto and I am not trying to disrespect you with my comments.
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Oh good once again a believer invades this thread. Sorry Coltsneck, we don't go on to your threads and tell you guys it's all @#$# - why do you need to come here to say we are wrong?
We've been through this in the past - we are not saying you don't have the right to an opinion - we are saying that we don't want to read about it. We are trying to create an oasis for people of similar non-beliefs, but our rights to freedom from religion seem to be fair game.
You say you are not trying to disrespect us - the very act of posting what you did says the opposite.0 -
Hi Madalyn - I guess whenever I see anything that starts to talk about god in this thread, I get my back up. Leave us alone already!!!
I have 6 more radiation boosts & then I'm done. Well after the sunburn heals. Here we have some of the most beautiful days ever and I spend my time hiding in the house topless. Oh well, there'll be more beautiful days tomorrow ...
susan
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Hi all, it is good to see that everybody is well, still feisty and opinionated, thank you for being here. It is the preaching part that gets to me.
GuitarGrl, you are on the home stretch. I just finished rads on 5/15 on the boob felt like its old self within a week. It is amazing what the body can do, I wish it didn't also screw up so badly on us.
Fancy new interface at BC.org!
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I haven't been around for a week or so, it's same old, same old most of the time. I was glad to see this topic active.
Looking at the partial post from Mary Lou, that Coltsfoot commented on, I was reminded of my college philosophy class. Pascal's Wager - anybody remember that? It basically said that you should believe in God because the risk is less to believe and it not be true, than to not believe and find out after death that God did exist. It's like saying, "I'm going to believe, just in case Hell is real."
Now, I can change my actions, but not my beliefs. So, when these people come on this conversation to try to convert us with this argument, do they think that if we pretend to believe, that God will be tricked? And if their God is omniscient, what's the point in coming here at all, since God "already knows" that we don't believe?
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Hear, hear! God would know if I said I believed, I would be a liar.
Personally, I don't think that faith (in general) is a virtue. I think its fine to have faith in how a certain person might act. But I have no experience that God is There. We can't completely depend that the sun will come up tomorrow morning. Its possible, though astronomically unlikely, that something catastrophic might happen, and the sun may not come up.
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Hi, I enjoyed reading through this thread. I was raised protestant and am surrounded by people who are religious. It makes me feel like "the odd one". My husband is a realist as well. I graciously thank people when they say they are praying for me and change the subject. However some are just so pushy (like the woman in my Yoga class who almost insisted to have her quilters group make a prayer quilt for me).
I am a nurse and have held the hands of many people during their dying process. The ones who were religious were often just as frightened as the non-believers. I was sometimes asked to pray with them. It felt weird but I would not deny that request, anyone can come up with the right words to say especially if it makes another person more comfortable.
My belief is that I want to live my life as good as I can, so when I die I'll know that I did the best i could and there won't be any regrets. Religion is the source of some of the worst wars in history. Like many of you said we can each have our own spirituality and nature is a great place to experience it.
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Hi to Everyone!
I'm new to the message boards and about to begin my first chemo tomorrow morning (T-C). The one thing that makes me feel even more "out there" and "lonely" though, than having BC, is being an Atheist. It's so marginalizing in today's Bornagin world. Imagine my delight in finding this dual-purpose thread!! I've read most of the posts--well at least scanned them---and sense some kindred spirits here. Many of you are as weird as me and a few are even better read. Certain things grabbed me, like I loved guitargirl's suggestion about the Darwin fish tlc jewelry, and Sharon's referring to "coming out of the closet as an Atheist". Yes! That's what it feels like, and Yes! Darwin is the one thing I actually believe in--well, sort of. I don't really believe in believing. Do any of you log into the Pharyngula blog?
One of the things that's fairly annoying about having BC is that it seems to give carte blanche to every nutcase evangelical out there to approach you unctuously offering their particular brand of salvation. Mind you, I don't mind the sincere prayers offered up by well-meaning, genuinely religious, kind personal friends. I accept those as gifts from their heart, however mis-guided. Can't hurt. But it's the perfect strangers that seem to think you are now going to rollover for their corny spiel and should be happy that they are even talking to you because you now have cancer. They really get my goat.
As an atheist I find it vexing that people think I must ergo be shallow and not have given matters of spirituality or creation any thought. I've given them a lot of thought, probably a lot more than someone that just follows blindly in the footsteps of their family's belief system. I also resent it that people equate atheism with amorality. I can take the moral high ground on issues as well as the next person and see no reason why ethics can't be based in thoughtful secular humanism. But enough of this rant. Obviously I'm a very angry person because I am starting chemo tomorrow and I don't really want to have to do that. If I found Jesus, perhaps I would be more serene.
Getting back to Atheism--since that is the presumed raison d'etre of this thread, though such an inordinate amount of it seems devoted to Cats--I think my particular brand of Atheism is of the drift that thinks that the Question of "Is there a God" is pretty unknowable, and not a particularly interesting question, and I would rather waste my energy in asking questions and researching and trying to understand things that have some prospects for being knowable, like the Big Bang, and Evolutionary Biology, and Stem Cell Research, or Why Music and Chocolate are Good Things. These are truly important matters.
I'm also, and--I'm sorry, this truly is heretical--not very impressed by the Bible, or the Talmud, or the Koran, or any other of those rambling, authoritarian texts purporting all kinds of mystical revelations and miracles, and promoting bizarre creation myths and glaringly inconsistent public health measures and manic ethnocentricity and xenophobia. I'm not impressed with their content, their logic, their validity, nor their literary value. If you're going to read, there is so much better material out there, Folks, really. Sheesh! Pathetic.
But the true measure of my apostasy (sp?) is this: I am willing to concede that there might be a God. Who really knows? I'm just indifferent to the issue. If so, he/she is either a real mean, rotten, SOB, or just horribly indifferent, or, even worse, inept--like so many phlebotomists--and in either case, I see absolutely no reason whatsoever to prostate myself to him/her, let alone offer up any Praises. I'm sorry, If I was the mother of a child dying of Leukemia, I could take no comfort whatsoever in knowing that it was"all for the best" and "part of God's mysteriously beautiful plan." I would just punch the sucker who said that in the face.
So now that I have caught your attention, and you're (hopefully) amused, here comes the part that will make you not like me: I'm really not that crazy about cats either, if truth be told. They make me sneeze, they are dirty, I hate their hair. I hate their smell and the smell of their feces. I hate it when they trip me as I'm walking down the stairs. It is not cute. It is not funny.I hate it when they puke on the bed. I hate it when they put their butt in my face, and I hate it when they dig their nails into my legs after I was just nice enough to pet them. I hate it when their fleas (and they always have fleas) jump off of them and onto me. And hear me on this: They have NO business walking around on kitchen tables and counter-tops. It's not cute. It's not hygenic. It's not a good idea. They carry toxoplasmosis, and e. coli, and other vile diseases, and their feet dig around in the cat box, people. Do the math!!! Maybe your body has developed immunities to those kinds of bacteria on the same counter where you make your sandwiches, but overall, it ain't a good strategy for avoiding food borne illness. Enough said. Yes, cats are beautiful and nice to pet, but only if you wash your hands afterwards. Yes they can be funny at play. They are also good for keeping vermin at bay if they haven't been too spoiled by over-feeding.
Regards
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I'm really glad this thread has been bumped back up, attracting some new posters. And, you know, we're a tolerant group, open to a healthy diversity of opinions - even on cats. I laughed at the rant. Yes, the butt-in-the-face thing is a little disgusting, and the less thought given to where those little paws have been, the better.
Sandra, hope everything goes smoothly with your treatment. Let us know how you're doing, OK?
Linda
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Sandra, I love your rant. I read some of it to my dh and it made us laugh. The cat part was also good, it sounds like you have experience with them. I hope all goes well for you during your treatment.
Most atheist/realist I know are also some of the most morally correct people. They care about the wellfare of others, they care about the environment, they also tend to be informed and educated. Oh yes, they are also more tolerant and liberal thinkers as well. Their ideas aren't based on the preacher's speech at the church. Their ideas are based on knowledge that they have accumulated, through education, readings, info, news, and discussions. It is open based, not one way, one truth, one belief, one word based like most religions are.
I also think that it a paradox that the religious right will accept Darwin's theory when it serves their social and economical beliefs but not for his scientific research.
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Aw, Gee! Now I feel like Sally Field (You like me, you really like me) whom I resemble a little except she has bigger breasts and two of them, and also nicer teeth.
It's nice to know I have two new friends as I trot off my first chemo, laden with oatmeal and good cheer. Linda--I loved that Russian Debutante novel too. We must be on the same page together. I don't know anyone else who is familiar with that writer. I also loved that kooky book about the Jews settling in Sitka, Alaska (instead of Israel) by the American Pulizer prize author. Cripes, where's my brain this morning, getting ready for chemo brain? Michael Chabon.
Regards,
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Sandra -
I like you even if you are a cat hater. My cats forgive the error of your ways ... Good luck with the TC - it won't feel like it at times but you will survive.
I liked the Michael Chabon book too - love books that skew reality just enough so they are believeable even when you know they aren't .
Hey guys - there is one terrible thing wrong with this new interface - the spell check tells me when I've typed something wrong as always (which is every other word) but it stops the corrections from coming up. I'm really not illierate - I just play one on television.
susan
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Hi Susan, maybe we can find a home for your cat and my dog, who invariably lands on my "funky" breast, never the other one, and this is 9 years later, but it still hurts.
Sheesh, hugs, Shirl
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OH what a wonderful, wonderful thread. No blessings - and some reading ideas!!! bliss. I'll look up Chabon during my next travelling...
)Atheism. Usually I avoid mentioning it, because it seems to offend people. Well, yes, and I really don't see where it shows a lack of understanding. All atheists I know (and in the years, it comes out that most of my friends are, with exceptions of course) are very well learned in their choice of philosophy, well read on the history of religions, and are able to take up a healthy debate for the pleasure of the discussion... what's not to like?
One line that is particularly irksome to me is that morals proceed from religion - on the concept that without religion we are all a-moral beings. I find this limited, constrained and downright insulting and dangerous.
Probably, all of us have been wondering what we really believe in. Nothing like a close brush with cancer to meditate on this item. Personally, it didn't change my way of looking at life.
Life is not fair, and in my opinion is completely random. I like that - it is a lot easier to understand WHY things happen to good people, and war criminals live to a ripe old age... and there is so much randomness in science and in nature that it seems completely logical to me. No more looking for guilt or anything. It is just what it is. I'll add that, while i find this world a cool place, and will do my best to have as long a ride as I can, I don't think that my existance is such a perfect and wonderful thing to require a godly intervention. That would be self-centered and slightly paranoid.
Sorry Sandra... I've got a cat too. But as he lives in my house and not in yours, I assume you will condone it.
I really hope your chemo today will go well. Personally, I've found it was easier to go through it than to wait for treatment to start... I hated the wait. and when you are all done, oh boy, that feels really GOOD. I had a bottle of Pink Champagne put aside for the occasion, and went out to celebrate to a fantastic restaurant with my boyfriend...
) 2 weeks later, so I also felt good. Lewing, I hope your Taxotere is working well and not too tough. I had DD A/C and then Taxol (similar to taxotere), and I found it was rather easier then A/C. Only issue - instead of loosing weight it made me gain it back. Drats.
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Sandra,
Count me in as another who likes you very much and agrees with your way of thinking. Even though I do have a couple of cats running around my house, I don't really like either of them very much, so the cat comments don't bother me in the least. One of mine is almost 22 years old and I'm beginning to wonder if she's going to outlive us all. How about dogs?? Now those I love!!
Laureg,
I'm a nurse too. Spent almost 14 years as a hospital based oncology nurse. Watched a lot of people die of cancer during those 14 years and never once did I ever see "god' respond to their prayers. Like you, I would sometimes bow my head and stand by while they said a prayer over their loved one if I was asked to do so, but it meant nothing to me. And yes I agree that sometimes the most deeply religious were those who were the most frightened about dying. There's probably been nothing that cemented and reinforced my atheist beliefs more than seeing the futility of prayer during those years in oncology. Well, maybe the years of seeing the parish priest spending the night at the home of a divorced woman at the top of my street might have had some influence on me too (wink!).
Lilith,
Your comment about morals being tied to religious belief in a way that leads religious persons to assume the non-religious are not moral people is soooooo true. You don't have to believe in a "god" to be a moral person. In fact, some of the most immoral, criminal minds are deeply religious (or at least pretend to be) and it surely doesn't stop them from committing what most anyone would consider immoral acts.
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Well guys I put my foot in it yesterday. While I was waiting for radiation (love those guys, but why do you always have to wait?) a totally charming young man sat down next to me at the jig saw puzzle. He was an "almost teenager" who was really a super kid. When I asked him if there was anything he couldn't do, his answer was "eat spinach."
Everything was going along beautifully until he said that I reminded him of a woman he talks to in church. Foot-in-mouth here said "can't be me, I don't go to church." I wish you guys could have seen the look on his face - it was the only thing that made him speechless.
Wish religious parents taught their children about the existence of others. After all, I might be going to a temple or a mosque - just not a "church."
Shirl: 9 years later and it still hurts???? Ouch???? Chaco will never learn
susan
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Susan: I think you gave that kid a good hint and possibly something to think about. That is pretty healthy.
I remember some years ago (before BC) (breast cancer, not before christ...), the mom of one my kids friends was becoming very very insistent to send our kids together to catechism... just wouldn't take no for an answer. Eventually, I had to bluntly tell her that I am an atheist, and that I didn't feel the need to fill my kid head with bible study.
You should have seen HER face. I thought she was going to call social services...
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Yes, and of all things, it hurts where he took out the drains. Not the incisions. Go figure. He left them in too long. They grew closed.
AHEM, there is no reason for any fleas on any pet. They now have available (and have had for years) two products that completely eliminate fleas. One is Advantage and one is Frontline. They render the female fleas infertile, harmless to cats and dogs and (they shouldn't eat it) and harmless to us.
I understand why people don't like cats. I really do. But I love them. My new little kitty sleeps on her furry mat right over my head and 3 separate times, in the morning, when I am awake and still have my eyes closed, she gently takes her paw and like a soft butterfly, trys to open my eyes. It is so adorable, I was close to tears. She is just amazing. We have had more fun watching this creature in our home, a stray, with no where to go, I can't begin to tell you. She and our Whippet play endlessly, she comes when she is called and follows us from room to room, I think she thinks she is a dog. She carries things around in her mouth.
Dirty? No, germy with human affecting germs? You bet. But cats are clean, they clean themselves completely every day. Plus, ours has fallen in the bathtub twice. haha
Our cat box is a self-cleaning, $300 model, it is never smelly.
Now that I have made a dear sister fume, please forgive me, I truly believe that people have every right to like or not like cats. Just like religion.
But I couldn't resist talking about Cleo.
Hugs, Shirlann
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HI, Ladies, it's late and I haven't checked here for a few days. I'm too tired to write but can't resist a little.
Sandra, I also am a cat hater. I was so enthusiastic early on in this thread, then it drifted to cats and I drifted away. I'm glad it's back, and with your example, I have come out of the closet as a cat hater. Whew - that was harder than coming out to my brother and sister as atheist! I do have a dog, but she poops outside and stays off the furniture.
There are so many folks who think of themselves as religious, one man I used to work with claimed that every word of the Bible was true. People like this need to sit down and read Leviticus, then say that they believe the Bible is God's law and must be followed. We're supposed to put people to death for a lot of stuff - even our children if they talk back!
By the way, I go to church! A very liberal Unitarian group, comprised of atheists, agnostics, Buddhists, pagans, a couple of lapsed Jews, and a few liberal Christians. We don't have a doctrine, just a belief in the worth and dignity of human beings, though sometimes I have my doubts about that.
It's nice to have a support group of open minded people. And though we call it a church, there's never prayer or scripture.Too tired to write, but I'm glad to see the thread active again.
Brenda
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Brenda,
Thanks so much for coming out of the closet and providing me with some needed moral support here!! It is funny, but not liking cats (I don't really hate them, I just feel averse to them) really makes one as much of a heretic these days as not getting God. You nailed it, girl. I hadn't really thought about it, but I made it the last confession in my rant, so clearly it was the most difficult thing I had to say.
I remember from a Sociology class years ago, the teacher saying, "How do you find out what the mores are in an unfamiliar social group? You find out by breaking them." No shit!! And it really is social suicide today to even hint at any animosity toward the Sacred Feline. This is a cult that has been growing faster than the Jehovah's Witnesses during the past decade. Has something to do with population density, and smaller living quarters I think.
And to Linda, larousse, Susan, Shirlann, Lilith, Marie Kelly and all here who have extended remarkable openess and kindness toward me, despite my needling and their intense devotion for their own little furry critters, I have no doubt at all that this is because they are owners of superior Atheist Cats and thereby have absorbed a higher ethical standard from their pets that causes them to be more tolerant and non-judgmental toward apostates. Meow.
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Nope. My cats are not atheists - they themselves are gods. Or at least they act like they are ...
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Guitar Girl, your dx date was my birthday!
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Madalyn, thanks for turning this thread around. Like other non believers I find nature to be my 'god' and I find it everywhere. Certainly watching the ocean and walking through a forest of trees. Listening to the birds and snuggling with my cats. The other night I was driving home from work and the moon was huge, full and orange so I pulled the car over and focused on it. All the sadness, fear and pain I have bottled up over the last five months came pouring out of me and afterward I felt an overwhelming sense of relief and calm. My bilat. mas. is on Tuesday and I now feel composed and ready to face it. For me, thats my god at work.
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I hope you folks know about
A humorous, alternative theology has evolved on this site, one which acknowledges the divinity of cats. Or rather Ceiling Cat. And pokes fun at some religious types for their lemming-like beliefs. Here are a couple examples. Go to the site and search "ceiling cat" for more.
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I just finished treatment and just got some good test results back. I get to start a whole 3 month vacation from the doctor (1st time in the past 20 months!) - Anyways - I just wanted to say that it is just in the last week that I've really felt the need to become part of this board/community. I could only deal with my own feelings at first and found it comforting meeting the other oncology patients at the infustion center that I was going to. I'm now wanting to reach out and interact with more survivors!
So the above isn't really part of this thread, but I felt like sharing... the point of me posting in this thread is that I was SO HAPPY to see it. I strongly believe in alternative therapies and energy work along with the traditional medicine and science, but it is difficult to explain the whole athiest thing as I find many people can't really understand it.
I always found it really awkward when the hospital chaplain would come by and ask me to say a prayer with them. And when I would politely say no, they would often push or ask if they could say a prayer for me at which point I usually said sure to get them to go away. Is that horrible?
My family is pretty religious so I especially didn't enjoy being put in this situation in front of them where they expected me to say yes and if I didn't say yes then I'd end up in dreadfully long conversations about how god loves me and I won't be saved.
I am planning on going back and reading some of the history of this thread, but in the meantime, I am glad to know that there are other people dealing with the whole being in the minority on the faith issue. During my treatment I found it important to cling onto life, joy, my doctors knowledge, the support of my friends and family, and myself to be strong enough to battle this disease instead putting it in a diety's hands.
Having vented a little above, I do have to say that I respect others and their beliefs - I just want the same respect back. Don't look at me like I have horns when I say that I don't believe in god.
I figure treat others with kindness and strive for happiness. That is the best way to honor life. Once again, it's nice to know that there are others out there.
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No, no, sisters you don't have to come out of the closet to say you don't like cats. Shoot, no one has to like things like that. Totally your own business and no body elses.
I like them, but I have such a sad story about my adopted daughter and a siamese cat. We got Susie when she was 6 weeks old. We already had 3 boys, and this was in 1965, before birth control was really going strong and they were letting just about anybody adopt, even with children of your own. Soooo, the story. This adorable little girl was about 2, just a little over 2 I think. She truly had never been sick. Very healthy child. Probably got some immunity from living with the 3 boys. So, I thought, gee, lets get a kitten, so I went out and bought an adorable siamese cat. She loved the little thing, we all did.
Fast forward about one month. All of a sudden, Susie couldn't breathe. I was petrified. I rushed her to the doc, he said, "asthma". I was devastated. I thought she was dying. I had never seen a full blown asthma attack in person. The doc gave her a shot and we got some prescriptions, and me, old smarty pants, couldn't figure out what had happened. Of course, the dolt of a doctor, who had cared for her all along MIGHT have asked me if we just got any new pets or somehow more dust, etc. But to perfectly honest with all of you, it was my responsiblity. She was sick now more than she was well. The damn cat lived to be 14. So did Susie, but I think back now on how much she suffered and how preventable it was, and it almost makes me cry. Poor little thing. I never put two and two together.
Even now 30 years later, I feel soo bad, my poor little girl with a stupid mother.
So don't apologize EVER for what you like or don't like in animals.
Hugs to all, Shirlann
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