Is anyone else an atheist with BC besides me?
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Beesie--You have every right to be confused. We are all confused.The phone company analogy may just be too deep and evolved for Atheists to comprehend?
Brenda--I feel that way too sometimes. That I must be from a different planet (or on a different planet) or something . My own concerns about the environment and sustainability are so palpable to me. It's just hard to comprehend how so many people just don't get it or just don't care. They see Point A and they see Point B, but they don't seem to be able to draw the line between them.
It does seem to me that that faith/religiosity is negatively corrlated with concern about sustainability. Maybe the Earth doesn't matter in the same way to religious people because the real deal is in Heaven? Who knows.
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Hey Liz - you got that right!
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Religion to me is just a bunch of hocus pocus. For some reason I always think of the scene in the movie "2001" where the apes are jumping all around the slab that comes up out of the ground. Here I am almost 60 and finally I realize that God is not a person or a place. I feel like I've evolved as a human being. I really don't refer to myself as an atheist though. I do feel there is something -some common thread,having to do with love, and everthing good that binds us together as human beings. The comedian George Carlin who just passed did this very funny routine. He says he's interviewing Jesus Christ. He asks him "Is there a heaven and a hell?" Jesus replys. "Not only that, but theres a Heck too. "Whats Heck?" "Its just not as bad as hell".
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Someone in a recent post said "I will say I can't imagine how you would get thru the bad times in life without the comfort of prayer."
I think most of us who aren't religious believers cope with life's hard times by simply relying on our own inner strength to see us through it - plain ole' well developed coping skills, which is something I think is lacking in someone extremely religious. When someone spends their entire life crediting control of everything good or bad that happens to them to someone else ( "the higher power" ), it's hard for me to imagine how such a person could ever really develop true inner strength and coping skills. Though I suppose, one could argue that religious belief itself is the biggest human coping mechanism of all.
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Hello Marie,
I am a very "religious" person but prefer to call myself a Christian vs. religious. My "Christian" beliefs are what make me "religious."
I have incredible "inner strength" but know that my true strength comes from my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.....He says "my power is made perfect in your weakness...."(2Cor. 12:9) It's through my "weakness" that I draw on the strength of my Savior even more. It's at that time that He uses me to most effectively to bring Glory to Him. People see, that through my weakness, I still profess my love for my Savior and they are amazed. They think I should curse my God and walk away because "He let bad things happen to me" when in all reality it wasn't Him at all. He wanted a perfect world but sin entered the world and because of that we live in a fallen world where bad things happen to good people BUT they also happen to bad people. You see, this life is but a journey. A journey where we are too profess to others that Jesus lived, died and rose again for our sins. By believing in Him (For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life - John 3:16) we can live forever in Heaven with our Savior. Forever in perfect peace and joy with other believers. It sounds too simple and it really is. There is nothing we can do to earn Heaven. (Ephesians 2:9) "We all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God..." Romans 3:23) We simply need to confess our sins to Him, believe in Him, follow Him and that's it. He has allowed us to have "free will." He loves us and helps us through all things. He is their for us to call upon in prayer and He is my "bestest"
friend in the whole world.So to say that those of us who are "religious" have not learned to have inner strength is the furthest thing from the truth. If anything, I think those of us who are "religious" have the greatest strength of all because we know that...."with God all things are possible...(Matt. 19:26)" and that gives us INCREDIBLE STRENGTH. Also, the Peace we have from knowing Him is a "peace that surpasses all understanding.... "(Php:4:7)
Thanks for hearing me out.......I know we all have different beliefs and I know that God has given us all freewill. We can agree or not...the choice is ours. God will force Himself on no one and where we spend eternity will depend on whether we accept or reject Him.
May you all know your Lord and Savior Jesus....He truly loves you incredibly.
Mary Jo
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Mary Jo, if you get solace and strength from your belief, then I'm happy for you. But we've heard it all before, and this is not a thread where we'd like to have Bible thumpers come and witness to us. It's where atheists can discuss our secular philosophy without being criticized or demonized for it. There's a whole forum for inspiration, as well as a "Women of Faith" thread on the mets board. Even though I have been tempted to go there and explain the errors in their logic, I don't.
Since you seem inclined to quote scripture as proof for your statements, I would recommend that you read "Misquoting Jesus" by Bart Ehrman. Here's a link to an interview with him on the Diane Rehm show: http://wamu.org/programs/dr/05/12/08.php and here's another with Terri Gross on "Fresh Air" http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5052156. Whether or not you believe in God, you should understand that the Bible was written by men, and copied by scribes, many, many times, with cumulative errors. We don't have the original manuscripts, so we can't really check all the mistakes against the originals. So if you try to make an argument for your belief by quoting a document that's a collection of stories that have been handed down through the generations, you've already lost the argument, in my opinion. The truth is, there is no logical reason to believe. Either you do, or you don't. That's what's meant by the word "faith."
I was brought up a Christian and I learned a whole lot of Bible verses, was "saved" and baptized, attended revival every year. But when I was intellectually mature enough to question the dogma, I realized that it was a way to keep the "sheep" in the "fold." I don't need to have someone tell me how or what to believe, and I don't associate religion with morality. I give to charity, do volunteer work at the homeless shelter, donate food at the community dinners for the poor, give rides to shut ins. I don't think that belief should be enough to get you into heaven. I think you should have to work for it. Since I don't believe in heaven, I do good work for its own sake, and expect no reward, in this life or the next.
Brenda
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Hi Madalyn,
Yes, you are right. I did "mean well" and wasn't aware that I shouldn't post my "feelings" on the subject. I don't apologize for my beliefts and what I know to be true, but I do apologize for "posting" where I shouldn't have. Thanks for ending your post with kind words and with the assumption that I meant no disrespect to you all. You most definitely are entitled to believe what you want to believe. We all are given freewill.
Sorry for interjecting where I wasn't welcomed too.
Hugs anyway....
Mary Jo
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Madalyn - please don't delete your rant. Maybe one day women who are (organized) religious will learn to stay away.
What I find curious is that they always assume we are limiting their free speech or aren't welcome. It's not that they aren't welcome, we just don't want to hear about prayer. Prayer & religion dominates too many threads, not just the ones that are about "faith."
Maybe we should change the thread title to "prayer-free zone?"
susan
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I have been reading this thread...it's been pretty nice actually! I'm glad it was started. I understand we are all cat lovers here...wanted to share my babies...Mowse is on the left and Wyka is on the right. Wyka was young here, she's about 7 months old now...! I like the title "Prayer-Free Zone".
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Nope, not all cat lovers!
Brenda (changed my screen name and avatar)
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Nope , no cats here either, but photos are always a good thing..
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Brenda/Analemma--Thanks for your thoughtful response to Mary Jo and for sharing the links about Bart Ehrman's book. I listened to the Teri Gross interview and found it very illuminating. Think I will buy his book.
Regards,
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Although I do find it annoying when those with religious beliefs come here to either explain themselves or criticise/chastise or try to save all the non-believers or help us save ourselves, I have to admit that the posts usually do make me stop and think.
Yesterday we had God and the phone company - I'm still pondering that one. And then today in Mary Jo's post there was one line that hit right on one of my biggest questions/confusions. What Mary Jo said was "I don't apologize for my beliefs and what I know to be true". I have no problem with the first part of the sentence, but what's with the second part, "what I know to be true"? I'm not picking on Mary Jo, because this is something I've heard said so often by so many religious people. But I just don't get it.
Isn't it called religious "belief" because it is based on "believing" rather than knowing?
Isn't it called religious "faith" because those who are religious must have faith in something that they cannot ever know? The definition of faith is "belief without need of certain proof".
In many religions, isn't the strength of one's religious conviction often measured by the extent of one's belief? "Do you believe?" "How strongly do you believe?" "You must believe."
So if an important concept within religion is that one must have faith & trust & belief in something that cannot possibly ever be known, isn't it contradictory to the basic premise of religious belief to say that "you know this to be true"? And frankly, how could anyone "know"? If somebody truly does "know", shouldn't they alert the press? This is news!
I don't have any problem with anyone who "believes" in God and religion. There are lots of unknowns out there, and in dealing with those unknowns, if someone chooses to believe in something different than what I believe, that's fine with me. But I bristle whenever someone of religious faith says that they "know" their belief to be true. First, they can't possibly know. Second, by saying that they know their belief to be true, the implication is that I am therefore wrong in my belief (or non-belief), as is anyone who believes anything different, whether it's another religion or whether than individual is agnostic or an atheist. And suggesting that everyone else is wrong is, to me, pretty concerning.
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Sandra, I actually just that minute finished listening to Terri Gross's interview. I had heard Diane Rehm's, but I think this one might be better. I did read the book. It's interesting, but does get a little dry after 60 or so pages. I believe he has a new one out, don't remember the title, but it's about his journey away from religion, after being "born again" as a young man. He did touch on that a little at the end of the Terri Gross interview. I listened to his interview promoting that book also on Diane Rehm, in the past six months or so. He says that the primary reason he had to give up his belief in god was because of universal suffering.
Now I've got myself interested, I think I'll go listen to that interview again. I just today bought speakers for my laptop so I can really hear while I'm in the pottery studio. There's a lot on the web that's archived, and one of my favorites is "Prairie Home Companion."
Brenda
Here we go! This is Fresh Air again.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=19096131
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Brenda--Ah, so you are a potter, and your avatar is of one of your beautiful pots? That's bizarre to think we were listening to the interview together. I realize I should spend more time listening to npr. There's so much to pick and choose from. I like Garrison Keillor (sp?) too. Such funny stuff and so many great musicians on his show.
Regards,
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Yes, that's one of my pots from last year. I've been pretty uninspired this year, after getting the mets dx last winter. But I do have some shows this summer and some orders to fill, so I'm at least doing a bit of work. I change the photo pretty often, and I'd like it if it didn't go back and change all the old posts as well. You can link to my website from my profile page if you're interested.
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LOL Madalyn...at first he was exactly like that, but they are fast friends now! Gypsy sounds awesome...I am also a dog lover.
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In spite of my absence from this thread I have been stopping in here now and again and enjoying (well mostly) what people have to say. My experience is that posting here can lead to being treated weirdly in other conversations on this site. This had led me to be ambivalent about posting,I have also been frustrated by the repeated intrusion of people wanting to argue the validity of their religious beliefs in this thread. Every time it's like "here we go again." Like many others here I am tolerant of others beliefs, I just don't want them imposed on me. I like Susan's idea of changing the title to "Prayer Free Zone" or something similar to signal that the thread is not about religious debate, which I have zero interest in. I do love the cat pics, beautiful pottery, and good book and radio talk!
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I wish that religious folks would just come here and read our conversations without feeling that they must witness to us. I want them to know that being atheist doesn't make someone evil, or immoral, or weird. We don't worship Satan and sacrifice babies. We're normal people, maybe we just tend to be overanalytic. Certainly I'm skeptical, not just in the matter of religious dogma, but of everything!
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Wait one second now Analemma - I have to stop sacrificing babies. Damn, nobody lets me have any fun at all anymore.
Of course if I could substitute sacrificing fundamentalists ...
allyson - it is really unfortunate if posting here has led to your being treated weirdly. I guess it shows how threatened some of these people feel if they are lurking in this thread and then holding it against you. I have found that some threads are not as open to new people as we are in this one. Never thought posting here was part of it, but if it is, then I don't need those people.
You'd think that with the common enemy we all have, it would overcome differences, but I guess not. On a guitar newsgroup I participate in, we have people of widely diverging beliefs. The religious, when asking for prayers, also ask for "good thoughts" from those of us who don't pray. We've learned to accept each other because we all love music. Why it can't happen here is beyond me.
susan
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I am definitely a mixture of analytical and emotional. I have a superstitious streak that I attribute to my 50's Catholic school upbringing and it amazes me sometimes! I can't remember the name of that profile that all the "consultants" were making big money off of not so long ago but it separated people into Abstract, Random, Concrete Sequential and ????(chemobrain alert here) and I always ended up as a mixture of Abstract random and concrete sequential.....
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I remember when I was in grad school years ago we studied the Myers-Brigg Type Analysis. I was almost equal in intuition and analysis. And yet, I do consider myself a logical, sequential thinker. When making a decision, I will weigh all the alternatives and consider the contingencies, and then do what feels right!
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Well, I consider myself very analytical and sequential, but don't tell that to my husband! He would say I was completely intuitive and just jump to conclusions without any thought at all! But that's because he's a man, and seldom grasps the full data set I am working from.Most of it's off his radar. Too funny.
Most of my professional life was spent in some kind of investigation and report writing, most recently as a medical mapractice investigator for an insurance company, but also in grant and proposal writing, journalism, medical editing, and university communications. So, hell yes, I'm analytical!! Women can be analytical.
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Differences of religion cancel each others religion out. No wonder they get upset to hear a different religions take on life and what is in store for us.
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Well, I just took this free Jung-Meyers-Brigg test at http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/JTypes1.htm, and I'm a ISTJ (Introvert,sensation, thinking, judgement) (78-1-62-44%).
In other tests, I'm more of an introvert than that.
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Lynn, thanks for that link! I took the test again after years, and I am an INFJ 78-38-38-33. I wish I could remember what I was years ago, but I think it was pretty similar. I had looked for a free test a few years ago and only found one that you could take for $30.
Beesie, I missed your last comments at the time because I apparently was posting at the same time. I understand and agree with your comments about the meaning of faith and knowledge. It's presumptious for anyone of faith to say that they know what is by definition unknowable.
Leaf, we are both 78% introverts. We should get together and hang out in separate rooms.
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Brenda,
I took that test tooand ended up INTJ, but the scores were all kind of low, so I don't know what that really means, for instance the introvert score was 1%. I assume that means I must be about halfway between introvert/extrovert, with a slight bent in the I direction? That would be my guess since I'm a pretty outgoing people-oriented person, but I also have a high need for down time and privacy. That it came out "I" surprised me.
Haven't seen a post from you in awhile. I know your scans are coming up. Hope that goes well and the news is good??
Regards
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Sounds wonderful, Analemma
I'm sure if I took the test again, I'd get a different %.
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Good morning! I had an art show this weekend, sales were disappointing. But then, I haven't really had my heart into making pots for several months. I've decided to give up the outdoor shows after this summer and concentrate on making dinnerware for my kids and doing special orders and maybe some gallery work. My back has been getting bad from arthritis, and setting up and taking down a pottery display is no easy task. And the economy is so bad that art shows have become free entertainment on a summer afternoon, and not many people actually buy.
Sandra, I do have tests coming up soon, and I'm beginning to be anxious..... I can't imagine (though I hope) that I will still be NED, and I'm dreading the thought of doing chemo again. Mostly I try not to think about it.
I've started working with the outreach nurse for the homeless in Cleveland. So twice a month we go to the women's shelter and she works with the adults and I with the children. It's mostly a health education based program, but I'm finding that the kids just really need to talk about things in their lives. I can't imagine how scary it would be not to have a home. The shelter is run by the Catholic church, and I can't get over the irony of me volunteering at a Catholic facility. One thing the Catholics have got down pat, is how to recruit new members, and that is by providing social services. These clients of the shelter (adults and children) are starved for solace and meaning, and they get it in the form of church dogma. There's no atheist vehicle for spreading our teaching like the Catholic machine, even though as individuals many of us do take responsibility for the care of our fellows. Last night we were talking about fear (with the children) and I told about my grandson and how he was scared in the night at a tree branch brushing against the house. And a little boy called out "that was God making it do that!" I said, it was just the wind, and he said, "but God made the wind blow." I just left it and went on with the story, what else to do? If I tried to contradict and explain my views, I would not be allowed to continue with the program, which would be a greater loss.
It's a beautiful day here!
Brenda
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Crossing my fingers, toes, and eyes for NED!
I'm sure those kids get a lot of relief just because you are there for them.
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