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Is anyone else an atheist with BC besides me?

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Comments

  • sushanna1
    sushanna1 Member Posts: 61
    edited July 2008

    Brenda,

     Glad that you are volunteering.  However, you summarized why I (and presumably most of those participating in this thread) am against government funds going to religious organizations to provide social services. Unfortunately, Obama is going to continue Bush's Faith Based Initiative. 

     I will keep my fingers crossed that you are still NED.

     Sue

  • Analemma
    Analemma Member Posts: 139
    edited July 2008

    Sue, I agree, and I'm disappointed that Obama is going to continue faith based initiatives.  And yet, I don't want to see a vacuum created if he pulls the funds and doesn't replace the programs.  There is so much of a need to fill, and it has been sorely exacerbated with the economy in the state it is; there are a lot of people who have become homeless in the last few years.

    I do believe that, even though churches may be in a position to serve the needy, any funds they get from government to do so just frees up other money to spread their message and recruit new members.  It's a Catch-22 situation, for sure.  And even though churches would not be allowed to discriminate in hiring practices based on religion, they will have a captive audience for proselytizing.

  • guitarGrl
    guitarGrl Member Posts: 150
    edited July 2008

    It's hard to be the non-believer in a belief-based system. Good luck to anyone in that situation. I'm not necessarily disappointed by Obama as worried. He has made a very big deal about religion - it will be interesting to see how that plays out in terms of things like school prayer or gay marriage.

    When does adherence to faith become discrimination or persecution? It's not clear. 

  • Shirlann
    Shirlann Member Posts: 60
    edited July 2008

    Hi Analemma, I truly, truly don't want to cause any trouble here, I firmly believe that you women have every single right to your belief or non-belief as anyone espousing anything.  I truly do.  But I worked as a secretary for 3 different Catholic churches over a period of 17 years.  Our church in an inner city area worked with a Baptist Church, an Episcopal Church and a Synagogue to provide meals each day to the homeless in our community.  Believe me, I did the books, never did the government ever give one single cent to us or any of the others.

    There well could be programs that I am not aware of.  But Catholic Charities did a huge amount of free work, with not a penny from the government, as this violates the separation of church and state.  The children at the school's parents paid school taxes and did not receive one penny of deduction or any other lessening of their community obligation to support the free school system, as well as paying additional exorbinant fees to the private school.

    I am not a Catholic, so I have no axe to grind.  But my sister and I knitted tons of bandages for lepers, all done free, to be sent to Africa.  If the churches were to stop what they do, believe me, it would be noticeable.  Let alone overseas, and they are not subsidized one penny by tax payer money.  I have a great niece and nephew who are going to China as missionaries, and they are raising their own money.  (I personally do not agree with this, people should not be pushed into believing anything).

    I do not want to cause any friction at all.  But since I had first hand knowledge of this one single situation, I felt I had to speak up.  Maybe some of you have other info, and I am more than ready to hear that.

    I think Bush was elected because of the stupid bible-belt.  They would vote in Hitler if he was opposed to abortion.  Made me sick.  Since the south traditionally has voted democratic, but now, who knows.  

    Politics and religion should remain completely separate.  But to get elected, they have little choice as these right to life nuts are strong and getting stronger.  Bush cut all birth control aid to Africa.  Sheesh.

    Anyway, sweet sisters, do not take offense, as none was meant.

    Hugs, Shirlann 

  • collector
    collector Member Posts: 72
    edited July 2008

    When I hear that organized reliegions do so much "good" through outreach or whatever, I always remind myself that they have an obligation to do so since they are tax exempt and IMHO, SHOULD be doing something in return.  It should NOT include spreading their particular message. 

  • Sige
    Sige Member Posts: 334
    edited July 2008

    I would have to agree with you collector.  The tax-free status should create the obligation of community-mindedness.

  • slortiz
    slortiz Member Posts: 142
    edited July 2008

    Well, this has been a rousing discussion. Brenda really touched on some important issues and got me to thinking too. It's interesting because I also felt it was ironic that the excellent cancer care I have been receiving has all been at the auspices of a Catholic hospital and facilities, and even I have to admit that when it comes to quality nursing care and other health services, they really have everyone else beat.

    Shirlann, I'm sure what you say about the Catholic Charities not receiving a dime of government money was true at the time you were working there, but I'm not sure it's as true now, because I think the Bush faith-based initiative changed all that, and now they do receive $$$ to support their social programs. This is what my husband, who's politically savvy said anyway, and if any of you know about this stuff, I'd appreciate more input. More importantly, their long-standing tax-free status has allowed them to amass enormous assets over the years, and certainly represents a form of subsidy. While technically "not-for-profit," from the looks of things the Catholic health care system  seem to be thriving heartily while so many community hospitals are not. Shrewd management I guess, which is not to say they don't do good works.

  • Shirlann
    Shirlann Member Posts: 60
    edited July 2008

    I don't think any of us can logically argue that some of the worst disasters and cruel events in the world, for all time, have been done or caused in the name of religions.  That is shameful.

    But I also know that our congress is bought and sold daily, as are most of our large corporations, graft, bribery, outright theft, corruption, cheating and lobbying plague almost all our governments and also religious organizations.  I have no arguement with that.  It is historical fact.

    But the many, many men and women who gave so much of their time, talent and treasure, the many years I worked for just this one church (probably not the best one, either) made me realize how much greater our burden as taxpayers would be if we had to shoulder all the things they do for the needy.

    Are they crooks?  You bet.  No doubt, I am not stupid.  But by the same token, is anyone really acting like the government is not crooked?  It is.  And one of the worst abusers of this "tax free" status is the Blood Bank, it pays IV drug users, prostitutes, and street people a few dollars for their questionable blood, gets most of it for free from good hearted people and then proceed to making a frickin' fortune off this.  $1200 a pint, at last check.  So I guess we have to pick our poison.  Get screwed by religious nuts or our own congressmen and women.  Here in San Diego we were heartsick about Randy Duke Cunningham, a Navy Seal, a war hero, elected to congress where he had a written list for lobbyists of what he would do for how much money.  When he was caught, you could see in his face, "They all do it, why pick on me?"  Very discouraging.

    So this is interesting and boy oh boy, how to solve it.  When money is involved, the most dedicated, wonderful, purposeful people can be corrupted.  Thank goodness no one ever offered me anything, I would like to think I would be honest, but you never know until put to the test.

    I so enjoy discussing all these things with this intelligent group of women.  It is wonderful.

    Hugs, Shirlann 

  • Analemma
    Analemma Member Posts: 139
    edited July 2008

    Shirlann, you are right, and it is a sad fact that power corrupts.  I had written a long response to your earlier post, then caught myself rambling, cancelled it, and saw that you had posted again.

    I was telling you ladies about going to work with the women's shelter doing health education.  Since it is run by the Catholic Charities, we are not allowed to give any information about safe sex practices.  I have a problem with that!  Really, are we going to teach abstinence to homeless women?  They will do whatever it takes to put a roof over their children's heads.  And there are children, no fathers in sight, and some of the girls are blossoming and will repeat the mistakes their mothers made.  I think we could do a lot more good talking about sexual responsibility and pregnancy prevention, and trying to educate children (teens and preteens) about their role as prospective parents, and the alternatives.  But the church does not allow this kind of health education, and I think it's a huge missed opportunity.  I talk to these children of ten, eleven, twelve years old, and they're smart!  But they are in a horrible circumstance and I think we're approaching the problem the wrong way.  I don't have the solution, I only know that the way we approach it now it's self-perpetuating.

    Brenda

  • Shirlann
    Shirlann Member Posts: 60
    edited July 2008

    Oh I know Brenda, and it is so stupid.  From a dozen directions.  First of all, there are no large families in the church, or, maybe one or two, everyone is using birth control and they all know it.  Also, Italy has the lowest birth rate of any European country.  Stupid, stupid, stupid.  The last thing we need is women having babies they don't want.  Or can't care for.  But what you have is a bloated, old, bureaucracy and is probably one of the worst in the world, mainly because it is so old.

    What to do?

    Hugs, Shirl 

  • carolsd
    carolsd Member Posts: 17
    edited July 2008

    Hi all,

    I've visited this thread off and on and enjoyed the thoughtful discussion. Someone mentioned many posts back about folks offering to pray for you when you're ill. I have a different slant on that; on Monday, one of our employees called me (I work in HR) and she was clearly choked up and in tears. Her mother had passed away unexpectedly on Sunday. I was trying to be sympathetic and I told her I was sorry and that she was in my thoughts. She said "prayers are welcome" and I didn't know what to say. I didn't want to tell someone in the throes of grief that I don't pray, but I didn't want to lie and say I'd pray for her either. I think I said something like "you got it." (lame)

    Anyone else in this predicament ever?

  • Analemma
    Analemma Member Posts: 139
    edited July 2008

    Yeesh, Carol, that's a tough one.  I would probably have mumbled something like you did rather than risk starting a philosophical debate with someone who was obviously stressed.  I definitely would not say that I would pray, but I would hope not to be pressed for a commitment in such a situation.  I would probably say "I'n not religious" rather than "I don't believe in prayer" because for some reason it's easier to hear for some folks.  Less to the point, I suppose.

  • Sige
    Sige Member Posts: 334
    edited July 2008

    I probably would have said "Good...that's good!"  or something lame like that.  Not an easy one to be sure!

  • slortiz
    slortiz Member Posts: 142
    edited July 2008

    Carol, Cripes, that is really difficult. I have no idea how I would have responded to this woman, perhaps not so kindly. To solicit your prayers in that fashion--like your mere "thoughts" weren't good enough for her--strikes me as kind of aggressive and manipulative. It's hardly surprising you were at a loss for words. I would have been too.

  • leaf
    leaf Member Posts: 1,821
    edited July 2008

    Hi Carol!  Oops- you already said you're sorry and you are in my thoughts.

    Maybe repeating that in a different way, even if you say basically the same thing, like "This must be very rough for you. Please know I am thinking of you." 

  • carolsd
    carolsd Member Posts: 17
    edited July 2008

    Thanks, it was just one of those "awkward moments"... I'm glad it's over, and if it happens again I'll probably freeze in the headlights the same way! LOL

  • LynnInCalif
    LynnInCalif Member Posts: 8
    edited July 2008

    When I was initially dx'ed, I had to cancel having a pebble tec store installed.  When I called the company to explain, the wife of the installer answered.  I explained my situation to her and she asked me if I would pray with her.  I said yes as saying no would have been the height of rudeness.  I thought we would close our eyes and pray quietly on the phone but she really did pray, talking to Jesus and the Lord. 

     She talked so fast I could not understand what she was saying.  .I was faced with, pity and prayers.  I thanked her and hung up. 

  • Analemma
    Analemma Member Posts: 139
    edited July 2008

    Hi, everyone.  Today I heard about a petition to get the candidates to debate on scientific issues, such as medical research, climate change, space exploration, and other topics.  Here's the link to the website, and I signed as an individual.  If we are going to be competetive in the world, we have to take advantage of science and research.

    http://www.sciencedebate2008.com/www/index.php

    Unfortunately, many people can't reconcile science and religion, and I think it will be to the detriment of our country in the world marketplace. 

  • paige-allyson
    paige-allyson Member Posts: 82
    edited July 2008

    Brenda, thanks for the Eskimo/priest story! It was worth stopping by just for that. No kidding re: the need to address the issues of safe sex education, etc. in a more effective way. We cannot afford to not have a dialog about this, especially with at risk children and teens. Having worked in a psychiatric hospital in the inner city I have seen the whole spectrum of ills that come with repetition of having children unplanned, early, and without a perspective on the responsibilities of parenting. Teens in the suburbs and in rural areas aren't exempt from these problems either.

    Carol- I think I would have taken your approach to the request for prayers and said something like "absolutely." I don't feel the need to tell people that I don't pray (or at least not the way they probably mean it). I am pretty sure I have even said "God bless you" back to very religious patients who have said this to me, especially older African Americans, and felt like my heart was in it. I feel no need to explain this to myself or anyone else- it is whatever it is and it feels right to me. I guess it fits with my high tolerance for ambiguity. LOL

  • collector
    collector Member Posts: 72
    edited July 2008

    Just finishing a book some of you might enjoy.  The Age of American Unreason by Susan Jacoby.  Kept me on the treadmill all week without looking at the clock.

  • guitarGrl
    guitarGrl Member Posts: 150
    edited July 2008

    Thought of you guys yesterday. I'm in Florida right now visiting my parents. My dad is in the hospital and I was waiting outside the bathroom in the hospital for my mom to come out. I was resting on the wheelchair with my head down out of exhaustion.

    An orderly came up to me & asked if I was alright. I told her what was happening and she said to me "go back to praying." Yesterday I did what Allyson might have done - nodded my head and didn't say anything. It wasn't the time or place to do anything else with someone who was showing me kindness. 

  • leaf
    leaf Member Posts: 1,821
    edited July 2008

    Oh gad, I know it wasn't the time or place to do anything else, but I'm sorry because his response made it even worse for you!

  • rayne_23
    rayne_23 Member Posts: 3
    edited July 2008

    i've been following this thread, but am just commenting now.  

    i've learned there is a big difference in religion and faith, and there are more times than not, I disagree with religion (despite a catholic upbringing and only going to catholic schools) I guess it's because religion is so structured.

    The biggest difference I feel is between God and his translating clergy. I haven't been to mass in years, mostly because they say I am unwelcome.

    Catholics (such as myself) aren't very fond of Lesbians (such as myself)

    So I try to disregard the hate that only humans feel, and turn to God, knowing that he's much bigger than the poeple simply reading his word. I have faith, but won't be a part of religion.

    When it comes to cancer, its diffcult because again, everyone else seems so much more faithful, and we're just...not really. Instead of using God to explain why this is happening, we're at peace knowing that well, it just happend, cancer doesn't choose whom it hits.

    -Rayne

  • marejo
    marejo Member Posts: 655
    edited July 2008

    Amen Rayne....Very well said.

    Mary Jo

  • rayne_23
    rayne_23 Member Posts: 3
    edited July 2008

    Thank you Mary Jo,

    I often get into huge discussions, mostly because I'm all for happiness and if being a religious person makes someone happy, if religion fulfills their life, than that's wonderful.

    As long as clergy are respectful to me (which is rare unfortunately) I still am respectful to them.
    after all, God doesn't judge, so I choose not to judge all the hardcore religious people.

    (but they've got Plenty of judgments against me) funny that...

  • socallisa
    socallisa Member Posts: 10,184
    edited July 2008

    Anyone here an Ayn Rand reader??

  • Analemma
    Analemma Member Posts: 139
    edited July 2008

    Hi, Rayne.  What a great name!

    My husband and I were talking about my death last evening, as we sometimes do (I'm stage IV) and I told him I didn't want him to feel angry and bitter.  He replied that being atheist helps him to cope with things.  That if he believed in God and that this was part of "his plan" he'd be so angry at him.

    I'm the same way.  I'm pretty insignificant in the universe, and random things happen.  People get sick and die all the time, and we've had a lucky and wonderful life.  I am freed by not believing there has to be a reason for things.

  • rayne_23
    rayne_23 Member Posts: 3
    edited July 2008

    i agree, Analemma,

    I believe some people drive themselves nuts trying to explain things. I do think there is a reason for everything, but i also know we may never understand it.

    which made me think of one of my favorite books by Nicholas Sparks, "a walk to remember" is about a preacher's daughter that stops responding to treatment at age 18 for her leukemia.
    When she falls in love for the first time and her world is turned, she must explain to her new love that she's come to terms with an early death and has completely accepted it. Although he's shocked and devastated, he asks how that's possible she replies "I don't need a reason to be angry with God"

    Sometimes you cause more grief trying to explain things and worse...point blame than working within yourself to slowly accept and be at peace with what has happened.

    -Rayne

  • Analemma
    Analemma Member Posts: 139
    edited July 2008

    I just have to post this link to a youtube video I saw yesterday.  It's got sound, but you don't need it.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdVucvo-kDU#

  • slortiz
    slortiz Member Posts: 142
    edited July 2008

    Annalemma,

    I just read some of your other posts so I know your scan came back favorable. I am SO happy to hear that. Go out there and throw some pots!!!

    Thanks for the youtube video. I'll check it out. I just love youtube.

    Sandra

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