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Is anyone else an atheist with BC besides me?

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  • KittyGirl2011
    KittyGirl2011 Member Posts: 324
    edited March 2012
    Hey Notself, I really like that idea.  Fire,wind,water, earth...I'll try it tomorrow!   I usually invision and repeat my mantra (just drift and float) when I need to focus my attention away from needles and difficult treatments.  Works every time.  Doing something while walking sounds wonderful too.  Thanks!  Kitty
  • ananda8
    ananda8 Member Posts: 1,418
    edited March 2012
    Smile
  • CLC
    CLC Member Posts: 615
    edited March 2012

    I have always suspected that I am basically meditating when I run on a treadmill...  it is not the same as the very still meditation that allowed me to produce jhana...  but I suspect it is the real reason I like to run...  Frequently, I am completely mindful while running.  I wonder how many other runners are actually running for mindfulness...

    I think I will try to do it walking, too, Kitty.  That sounds much more challenging for me...  I think the physical demands of running allow me to appease some part of me that demands flitting and unmindfulness and allows for the rest of me to be mindful.

    I, too, am able to get through treatments by focusing on my trigger...it is simply the word "relax."  Once, long ago, I had to have a brain scan.  The technician said to relax...so I did what I then thought of as "self-hypnosis."  Afterwards, the technician was a little perplexed and asked if I'd fallen asleep or had something happened...  my scan was unusual...  so I knew then that I was causing distinct changes in brain activity similar to sleeping...  :)

    Claire

  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Member Posts: 1,017
    edited August 2012

    Notself - reading your posts reminded in of the YEARS ago, reading Chop Wood, Carry Water.

    I find the focus on the breath, all stages of it, the most relaxing mindfulness.  Good posture, feeling every muscle holding us up - ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.....

  • socallisa
    socallisa Member Posts: 10,184
    edited March 2012

    Personally I never got into meditation.But whatever works :-)

  • ananda8
    ananda8 Member Posts: 1,418
    edited March 2012

    SoCalLisa,

    Perhaps your flowers and photographs put you in a meditative place.

    As Westerners we like to label things this or that.  Asians just do.  In Asia there is no such thing as Buddhism (it's a Western term).  People walk the path or they don't.

  • socallisa
    socallisa Member Posts: 10,184
    edited March 2012

    I did get into the idea of a "worry chair" and when my mind started the worry cycle, I would go sit in the chair...sometimes I would just go sit in the chair and worry...so I controlled alot of anxiety that way

  • Maria_Malta
    Maria_Malta Member Posts: 667
    edited March 2012

    Dear friends, I can't catch up with this thread. Haven't logged in for a week or so and I find so many names of interesting books and so many ideas flying around!  it's great!  Firstly I'd like to thank Flannelette (I think) for referring to The Snow Leopard..I was really interested in what you and others had to say about it, ...ordered it and it arrived a few days ago, tho' havent had time to start reading it as I've got 2 other books going at the moment. A travel writer called Colin Thubron wrote a book called To a Mountain in Tibet, where he traces his journey trekking with Hindu and Muslim pilgrims around the sacred Mount Kailas.The process of a journey, and especially of walking through a landscape over a long period of time allows the writer to reflect on so many things while at the same time on nothing.  Another favourite writer of mine, the British travel writer Bruce Chatwin stressed the importance of physical movement.

    Thank you also the rest of you for your insightful comments about consciousness, NDEs etc etc... I can't say I know much about Buddhism, my approach to religious belief is very eclectic and practical, and having been thoroughly indoctrinated with Catholicism I now tend to baulk at other structured beliefs.  However, I've been going to yoga twice a week for about 5 years now (except for last year), and we usually end the class with a short meditation.  I have never experienced the almost transcendental feelings expressed by some of you here, but I find it really therapeutic and always feel incredibly revived and centred at the end of the class.  As Notself said, it's all in the breathing isn't it, and in stressful  situations I find it very helpful to focus on my breathing and bring myself back to myself.  I'm probably not using the right vocabulary, but anyway.

  • Maria_Malta
    Maria_Malta Member Posts: 667
    edited March 2012

    Just thought that I'd add that it was observed that breathing as in meditation, and reciting the rosary both lowered blood pressure and pulse rates in the same way!  If I'm not mistaken I read this in the book on cancer 'The Emperor of all Maladies'

  • CLC
    CLC Member Posts: 615
    edited March 2012

    SoCalLisa...that is an interesting idea.  Does that mean that you only permitted yourself to worry while in the chair and that you would be able to let it go once you got up from the chair?

  • socallisa
    socallisa Member Posts: 10,184
    edited March 2012

    clc, that was the goal, and it did help alot..

  • Maria_Malta
    Maria_Malta Member Posts: 667
    edited March 2012

    It's a good idea...kind of 'doing a geographical'

  • CLC
    CLC Member Posts: 615
    edited March 2012

    It reminds me of the idea that when you cannot sleep, to get out of bed, so that you do not make a habit of not sleeping in bed...

    Since the bc dx, I have worked very hard at focusing on work at work, focusing on my children when I am with my children, focusing on my dh when I am with my dh, etc...  I always knew it was a good idea, but I never forced myself too until it became imperative by the intensity of emotion that washed over me after the dx.  I had to respect the intensity, and give it its due time, but I had to respect all other areas of my life, too, and tell the intense emotions they had their time... and I had other things to do right now.

    Funny how crisis brings common sense into such clear focus.

  • ananda8
    ananda8 Member Posts: 1,418
    edited March 2012

    There is a lovely legend about the origin of the rosary having to do with visions and roses. Counting beads were used in India a thousand years before Jesus.  These beads are called malas.  Muslims also use counting beads.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prayer_beads

    Let me note that when Buddhist use prayer beads (malas) they aren't praying to anyone.  Wink

    Two other interesting religious philosophies from Asia that are basically atheistic are Tao-ism and Confusianism.

  • wren44
    wren44 Member Posts: 7,967
    edited March 2012

    I worked for a woman who had a worry tree. When the office became too much she would eat her lunch leaning against her worry tree. It really helped her.

  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Member Posts: 1,017
    edited August 2012

    CLC

    sounds to me like you're LIVING a practice of MINDFULNESS.  how wonderful.

  • CLC
    CLC Member Posts: 615
    edited March 2012

    Thanks, Sunflowers, for the encouraging words!  I don't know how successful I am...but I am definitely achieving it better than I did before bc (before I really made an effort to try).  

  • flannelette
    flannelette Member Posts: 398
    edited March 2012

    Hi all I've so enjoyed your interesting and deep posts about your experiences - You're so right notself, Theravada is like the Quakers. My teacher used to say theravada is the arrowroot cookie, Mahayana the chocolate chip, and Tibetan -triple oreos covered with M&Ms & whipped cream

    - CLC  - there was a New Kadampa group on that campus, and I remember asking my teacher about it and she suggested I take another direction, for there had been hassles with the Dalai Lama. So your story about "Having" to believe in reincarnation is ringing a bell...I hope you find another place that's right for you.

    I too had a transcendent experience, which I've mentioned here, where I came to in bed but knew I was not asleep and not awake, and thought, I could get up and get a pencil and paper as this is really amazing - it was like I was at the centre of the universe, being rocked in the cradle of unconditional love. And a voice which came from niside of me said "Arlene, look at how you have been living your life - you have based all of your important life's decisions on your emotions". and that was it. I'd been suffering through a crazy relationship and was so distraught that night that a friend came and gave me a shiatsu massage - and it must have been a very good one, because it must have opened some energy channels, or allowed me to go to the non-discursive side of the brain. It was so beautiful, calm, peaceful, utterly sane, I just hung out there till I fell asleep. and when i woke up, i remembered every feeling and every word, and when I talked to a Tibetan lama a few years later I just sat there and cried. I thought I'd met my Guardian Angel

    Xians would have thought they spoke with god.many yeasr later in my Buddhist studies I came to understand it as my buddha nature, and there are reams of literature about it...and it was the first time I understood what had happened. So my tendencies are greatest towards Buddhism, as I've always felt a spiritual need that was left utterly cold by church, which was never forced on me.

    I like reading things by Thich Nat Han - know i've spelled that wrong - and Jon kabat Zinn and did do the Stress Reduction course many years ago when I went into a long period of generalized anxiety disorder and we did do 45 minutes of either walking, sitting, or the body scan  or yoga every day.Totally loved the body scan. At that time I read Kabat Zinn's Full Catastrophe Living and the compassion that emanated from it - well, i would fall asleep with it on my abdomen. Notself I love the bit about fire, air, water, earth while doing the walking and had never heard that. I love thinking, or being, in the 4 elements, at different times.

    ken wilber wrote some book where he described how he just loved hanging in water, and i've always loved that too. my very fave thing is diving from a boat into a pool of sunny water where there is a sandy bottom, and the colur underwater is like green jello. While hanging, I am lost into the elements of water, air, and fire (sun) and just a thin rim of earth on the horizon as i turn around. I become very peaceful - , who woudn't, I guess, supported by water, less gravity, and blue above and below. maybe i have too much earth and need a break. anyway, I was so excited that Ken Wilber loved doing this too that I wrote to him. of course, he never wrote back....

    Only lately have i come to understand about ego - but it's Buddha's basic "discovery" - we are not ego...we are not self! we are 5 skandas that are taking information in and out and I'm beginning to understand why it's said that we live a dream - a big story concocted and held together by ego - and the thousands, maybe millions, who have transcended it, have seen reality as the universe really is. somewhere a few pages back someone was explaining this very clearly - about - you create the universe? making your reality - anyway, i do get lost and confused at this point so if anyone wants to explain i'd love it. 

    I don't think this sort of talk needs to go to the Buddhist thread, by the way, is it's totally universal and available to everyone...but sometimes we get a little glimpse, or maybe no glimpse at all, or maybe we're Jesus or the Buddha and understand the whole shebang!

    Only reccently did i come to see that when Adam and Eve were walking in the garden of eden with god, in the cool of the evening - they were in non-discursive oneness with the universe, but when they ate the fruit - was it of the knowlegde of good and evil? they were cast out and ended up with shame (the ego) and the discursive way of being - blocked out of oneness with the universe - and maybe I'm all wrong but to me it's a very beautiful metaphor.

    Sorry to write too much, as usual, but it's such a treat, this thread.

    ps ordered a bunch of books you've all suggested on interlibrary loan

  • luv_gardening
    luv_gardening Member Posts: 362
    edited March 2012

    Arlene, you got the same metaphor that I figured out myself from Adam and Eve!  Oh what a relief. So cool... Cool   No one gets it when I explain it.  Before the apple; innocent, non-judgemental, naked and unashamed, happy with their garden of Eden.  After the apple; ashamed of their bodies, needing to wear fig leaves, judging themselves and others.  Those judgements cause shame, jealousies, anger, depression, damaged relationships leading to bad behaviour and ultimately, wars.  If there is only good, then the knowledge of good and evil is false and is itself the cause of all suffering. What a paradox!

    So those who try to convince us to follow some book, who judge us as ignorant or evil, are themselves caught in the spell of judgementalism.  Enlightenment as experienced by Buddha, Jesus and other spiritual leaders takes us back to our original innocence where all in the universe is perfect.  Our garden of Eden is within reach, in our own awareness.

  • socallisa
    socallisa Member Posts: 10,184
    edited March 2012

    And here I thought I was on an atheist topic,somehow we have strayed

  • luv_gardening
    luv_gardening Member Posts: 362
    edited March 2012

    Lisa, We are wandering dangerously close to that other topic.  Yet it's about our psyche, our mind, and how religions have drawn metaphors and then gone way off track, making it instead about rules and rituals and judgements.  Which brings us back full circle to the atheist viewpoint.  Hopefully psychology and neuroscience will show us eventually, with the help of people like Jill Bolte-Taylor, that there's another aspect to consciousness and a new meaning to life that has nothing to do with any g-o-d.  Yet the esoteric parts of religions have in a way led the way there, even as the masses of worshipers have been so sidetracked and corrupted.

    As this thread was started to try to find some peace of mind for those who are atheist, I do believe that meditation and other methods which can be used independently of any religion, to clear the mind, qualify perfectly. As does the study of the brain, fMRI's, NDE's and any other science that helps with our peace of mind.  But I'd be happy to take the conversation elsewhere if it makes anyone uncomfortable as it probably would have done for me at one time.

  • camillegal
    camillegal Member Posts: 15,711
    edited March 2012

    I just had to reply--this was indeed one of the most interesting topics to read and have a discussion. I personally respect all beliefs and feelings so it was very enlightening for me.I never think of a belief as right or wrong--it's wht u believe--that's it. The person u've become is what I admire and care for or maybe not. It has nothing to do with a belief in God, Universe, nature, or anything really.

    One thing that I have noticed about me is I take everything in now--if I'm having a conversation I liten to everyword and every little thing that I didn't do before, I don't waste a moment with the people I love-I'm home now couldn't go back to work and I just enjoy wtching people walk by my window.LOL And I'm never bored, What I believe is coming from within.

  • luv_gardening
    luv_gardening Member Posts: 362
    edited March 2012

    As an ex-christian I can understand that gut churning feeling when anyone mentions their holy books, saviours or beliefs. I felt like I'd been brain washed by intelligent people who should have known better when I actually read the book myself and saw how different it was to what my school and Sunday school had taught me. Also I was mad at myself for falling for the false logic that accurate historical events and geographical references meant the whole book and religion must be correct.  My bad.  Now I continually check my logic but won't rule out what I don't know as impossible.  I know there is much unexplained and I like to think there are mysteries yet to be discovered. 

    I've softened a lot but it's taken a long time and I know it's not healthy to have those uncomfortable feelings about other people's legitimate beliefs. I love your attitude Camille. One day I hope to be that way but it's a work in progress.

  • Charles_Pelkey
    Charles_Pelkey Member Posts: 99
    edited March 2012

    Dudess,

    I am more of an agnostic than an atheist (which I find requires almost the same degree of certainty as most religions), but I am certainly with you on the issue of faith and recovery. I got a lot of prayers and such, but the thing that made me comfortable was my friends and my family. They were spectacularly supportive.

    I didn't turn to religion as I was wrestling with issues of mortality and came to the conclusion that I had every reason to embrace whatever time I have left and live each day as it was my last. Breast cancer was not a pleasant experience, but it had some strangely positive elements. For one thing, I don't sweat the small stuff anymore. Faith? Not so much. I will just try to live my life as if there isn't a prize at the end and try to be decent for the sake of being decent.

  • CLC
    CLC Member Posts: 615
    edited March 2012

    Hi all!

    Charles...welcome!   ...the dudess posted back in 2008 and has not been on breastcancer.org since 2010...  I am glad you found meaning come from the adversity of bc...  I share in that.  I have learned a lot, and continue to...:)

    SoCalLisa...  I am sorry if I led us off the beaten track.  I was really just trying to talk about meditation and using it to manage stress, but I never meant to lead us to discussions of religious meaning.  It is challenging, though, sometimes, to discuss the challenges of living as an atheist without discussing religion.  I do think that I am both atheist and inherently Buddhist.  They are not mutually exclusive, necessarily.

    So...I am not really sure what is acceptable to talk about on this thread and what is not...  I do not wish to offend anyone, and I enjoy coming to this thread and seeing the wonderful pictures and hearing the wonderful thoughts... 

    Claire

  • CookieMonster
    CookieMonster Member Posts: 90
    edited March 2012

    Claire and others - I think talking about meditation and its usefulness is fine. I will admit that I've only been skimming the posts recently as they're not interesting to me personally, but we are all free to read or not read as we want. I imagine that once this discussion has run its course, the thread will move to a different topic, like which flowers/bulbs grow best in whose backyards, and which ones we like to grow, or perhaps who's planting a spring/summer veggie garden, or how BC has changed our relationships with friends and family, or even the difference between flanel and flanelette (wink wink). I think this thread meanders without any guidance (as it should) and some topics will catch one's fancy and some will not. The thread topic is simply a place for some of us to come on BCO where we can reliably know that we will not be told "God bless you" "I'm praying for you" etc.

    I think I may have gone on too long. Just my thoughts about the group. No offense to anyone meant, hopefully none taken.

    Happy Sunday all.

    -Judy

  • ananda8
    ananda8 Member Posts: 1,418
    edited March 2012

    I'm in a real pickle with my yard since we replaced the windows and siding on the house.  The contractors drove their big trucks all over the place leaving ruts and compressed soil.  My yard is about 2 1/2 acres so the problem is a big one.  We also reconfigured the drainage channels along 2 sides of the property and the fill dirt the contractor used is nasty sticky clay.

    Does anyone have experience with large areas of compacted soil?

    PS:  Buddhism is one of three atheistic "religions".  The other two are Taoism and Confucianism. None have creator gods that need worshipping, award and punish or require obedience to dietary and sexual rules.

    PPS: What are the best perininals for full sun and can take +100`F  temperatures?

  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Member Posts: 1,017
    edited August 2012

    "As this thread was started to try to find some peace of mind for those who are atheist, I do believe that meditation and other methods which can be used independently of any religion, to clear the mind, qualify perfectly."

    WHAT JOY SAID ;-)  Fits perfectly for me.  Also, the JOY and healing I find in the garden, and wonderful photographs of SoCALisa, all fits.

    Think the "dangerous" comes in when folks try to use the beautiful myths, stories, metaphors of any kind as the "Truth" ( Capital T).  For generations the "folk lore" really was a form of what we call psychology today.  Many modern psychologists see similar patterns in early Alchemy, as a metaphor for individual self development.  All works for me.  Love the openness of this thread. and the CIVILITY , respect for each other, of the discussions.

  • luckyjnjmom
    luckyjnjmom Member Posts: 114
    edited March 2012

    Hey there,

    I'm not much of a gardener - it was really the "atheist" title that intrigued me to join this thread. I guess I consider myself agnostic. I'm a scientist by education, Chemistry, and very curious by nature. I am anti-religious by experience, i.e. raised catholic - never bought that whole thing about why women couldn't be priests or why the fall from grace was a woman's fault - etc. So in bagging the whole religious thing - it raised a lot of other questions - as did my scientific education. Anyway, sorry for the ramble. I do believe that matter and energy are neither created nor destroyed - but merely change form - at least until someone finds another physical law to replace that. And what are we but matter and energy?  Religions that drink "the blood of Christ" or eat "the body of Christ" sound a lot like old religions that profer human sacrifice and voodoo rituals that I think most Christians, Jews and Muslims would find barbaric.

    Be kind to all you meet, for everyone is on a difficult journey - Lucky 

  • PlantLover
    PlantLover Member Posts: 132
    edited March 2012

    SoCalLisa - Other than your response, I was kinda surprised more people didn't join me in expressing that they also felt near death experiences could be explained by scientific & rational reasoning.  I would think I wasn't the only one that held that belief on an atheist thread.  But that's okay ... we don't all have to have the same level of doubt.

    JoyLiesWithin - Personally, I appreciate you taking your in depth discussion of that to another thread.  You didn't have to do that and, to me, I think it showed a great deal of respect.  Thank you!    

    As far as meditation, that's one that can have absolutely nothing to do with gods, spirits, or angels, in my opinion.  It's also something that I feel can be done in many different ways.  I went "googling" for a good definition to post and found this ...

    The word meditation has two clusters of meanings: one is to contemplate through thinking; the other is almost the opposite - to contemplate without thinking.  Here are a collection of the second.

    Click on the above passage to view the source and the collection.  I didn't spend very much time reading through the info on that link so if you find something odd, sorry!

    Personally, I'm not one to chant silently or otherwise but meditation and "self-talk" has gotten me through many difficult times in life. Lisa, I really like your idea of the worry chair.  I may have to try that.

    I find the little I know about Buddhism fascinating.  It seems so peaceful to me.  I really need to find a simple book to explain it further.  However, any mention of gods, angels, etc ... would be a complete turn off for me.

    Charles_Pelkey -  I'm sorry you had to join us here but I wanted to welcome you.  Trying to live your life being decent for the sake of being decent is, to me, an absolutely wonderful approach.

    LuckyJnJMom -  Another to welcome to the thread.  Also sorry that we're "meeting" you due to a breast cancer diagnosis.  I love that line ... Be kind to all you meet.  It's an excellent goal!

    notself -  Oh I have all sorts of suggestions for you regarding your compacted yard and plant selections but I've got to get outside right now.  I'll be back!

    By the way, didn't anybody other than chumfry like my pictures? Yes, I am trolling for compliments but for my plants not my photography skills. ;-)