Is anyone else an atheist with BC besides me?
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Honest: I did hit enter after each link = that is how I got the line space for the next regular text. In the future, I will hit enter 2x after a link. Note: I also hit enter when I go to inssert the link after my text. What do you think about that as a plan?
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Hi Trickling. I listened to the entire audio clip and although I find it interesting, I believe there are rational & scientific reasons for such experiences that do not have anything to do with "crossing over" to another place of existence.
Here's just one source for consideration: The Scientific Theory to explain near death experiences.
I did think it was wonderful that the person in the interview, Anita Moorjani, continued her life after her experience in a much more positive manner than she said she had been previously living. I'm sorry, but I have to say that I think it's ludicrous to believe that the healing of her cancer took place in four days, as she said, or that it had anything to do with the "near death" experience.
When the interviewer asked what Anita would do if she did have another cancer diagnosis she responded along the lines that she would take it as a sign that she needed to relax more and realize that she was not loving herself enough. I truly hope she doesn't have another cancer diagnosis but, if she does, I hope she doesn't rely only on positive thoughts as her treatment plan.
Anyway, each to their own.
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Flannelette -- my mother sewed and taught us to sew, and I've only heard the term "flannel" -- so my curiosity impelled me to Google, and I found this on a site that sells flannelette sheets:
"Technically, flannel is a loosely woven wool fabric that is not napped. While a distinction between flannelette and flannel is still made in Europe, the flannel sold in the United States is actually flannelette; real flannel is much less common and usually more expensive. However, don't assume that flannelette is inferior to traditional flannel. Flannelette is a very different fabric than flannel and produces soft, cozy sheets that flannel would not."
So, flannelette is made of cotton, and we call it flannel in the U.S. Which would explain why I was always a little mystified by references to men's "flannel suits" and "flannel trousers" -- now I realize they are made of true wool flannel: "a loosely woven wool fabric that is not napped."
Now I'm wondering -- does the word "nap" (as in a little snooze) come from the cozy feelings induced by napped flannel(ette)?
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Trickling, thanks for the recording. Around 15 to 20 years ago I became obsessed with NDE's and read all the books. It was the first time I'd questioned my strong atheist stance since my teens when I rejected religion. I've always kept an open mind about the reasons for these experiences and realise there may be scientific explanations that we don't have access to yet. As the article on the scientific explanations say, for every scientific explanation, there are 5 NDE's that defy them! The reading of people's minds/feelings when they are in distant locations is the most perplexing part for scientists.
I have since read much about self-realisation, also known as awakening, enlightenment, nirvana etc. The experiences are similar. A feeling of unconditional acceptance... Everything is for a reason... We are all one... There is only awareness... We are part of a larger plan, like a thread in a tapestry. etc.
What I have difficulty understanding is the leap from the unknown explanations of observers to the assumptions and rules that make up religious books and beliefs that people tend to follow without question even to the point of war against those who believe differently.
My theory, or rather, hyposhesis, is that there is some physical or chemical change that happens in the brain that separates the emotional conditioning and self-concepts from our understanding of who we are. This separation seems to happen in both NDE's and self-realisation, though in self-realisation it's more of a gradual process.
Our self-concept is the one that causes major emotional turmoil when anyone sees us in a different light to how we see ourself. From the moment we wake till we go to bed, we engage in behaviour that supports our self-concept, which includes "how the world ought to be". The toothpaste should not run out now. Our governmnet shouldn't be making that error. My mother should stop doing that thing. People on BCO should not be saying those things. ;-
We align ourselves with all sorts of things from the time we are born. Our name, where we live, our hobbies, knowledge, job, friends, family, our many values and beliefs, our posessions, how we see the world etc. I suspect NDE and self-realisation are the breaking of those ties and the feeling of utter relief to be free from them. I suspect that once free from these massive chains, we can have access to abilities we are unaware of, such as being able to sense what our loved ones are feeling even though they are miles away. I don't rule out spiritual reasons for the experiences, but don't see any reason to form opinions about something I can't know about and end up being wrong.
When NDEers have conversations with "god", well it seems that the god is nothing like in any of the sacred books and different for each person. I think the eastern religions are closer to these experiences but rather steeped in rituals and rules. So again for me it comes back to accepting these experiences as a dropping of the self-concept or ego and experiencing the amazing feeling of being their natural selves. But a part of me also believes in various spiritual possibilities and being able to heal ourselves which some people claim. Who am I to say that science has come to an end and there are no more mysteries to be solved or whole new areas to be discovered? The possibilities are uplifting and I believe in happiness, peace, compassion, acceptance and love above all else.
(Edited to correct spelling.)
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Did anyone else read that in a study they found that some substances were released to the brain just during a NDE to have that "dream"
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SoCalLisa, My son, who belongs to many skeptic groups, has been all through these theories and possible explanations with me. Having a dream or hallucination doesn't explain how people can tell what is happening in far off places while clinically dead. I saw a documentary about an experiment where a woman needed surgery where they had to stop all her vital signs so she was clinically dead. They had been waiting for such a case to see if the NDE experience would happen so they could better understand it. She was all wired up for any activity in the brain and there was none during the vital part of the operation. After the operation she was able to repeat what one of the nurses had been thinking about an unspoken date she was going on that night. She reported seeing the operation from above and seeing what her husband was going through away from the theatre. She could also describe the vital instrument used in the operation which she could have had no knowledge about, all while receiving no oxygen to the brain for some time. I think they used cold to preserve her life.
I think it's important to realise that we can't explain this phenomena with current science and there must be some missing link. I'm open to whatever reasons turn out to be behind this, It will help us understand the brain, mind and perhaps more, and maybe give some more intelligent people reason to drop their religious dogma. I guess people will still disagree and wars will happen as long as people have a strong need to be "right" (ie support their self-concept).
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If anyone is interested in the self-concept and how it affects everything we do and how we really relate to each other, here is a link to a shortened version of a book by a psychologist who teaches at Pennsylvania University.
The Ever-Transcending Spirit:
The Psychology of Human Relationships, Consciousness, and Development
Revised Online Edition © 2009
Toru SatoMy ideas were formed from reading in many different areas including psychology, though I've never studied formally and have only superficial knowledge in most areas, but seem to be good at hunting out the necessary details to get a good overall view of my favourite subjects. I was pleased to find the work of Toru Sato was so in line with my own conclusions.
If NDE's are a little off-topic, then I've joined another thread called The Whole Person: Joy and Laughter - Mind-Heart-Body on the Help Me Get Through Treatment forum. I posted a link to the NDE there as it seems in line with topics being discussed there.
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JoyLiesWithin,
Thank you for your beautifully written posts. You and others may enjoy this TED by Jill Bolte Taylor on her experience of having a stroke. She talks about some of the things in your post.
http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/en/jill_bolte_taylor_s_powerful_stroke_of_insight.html
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Excellent talk Notself, I've seen that before as I have some amazing Facebook Friends who post such things. I could sit and watch TED all day. So many interesting talks that take me outside my areas of interest, but this one is so special as she was the very person who could benefit from inside knowledge of what a stroke feels like.
I also listen to the many Buddha at the Gas Pump interviews of people who have undergone a shift in their consciousness. They see it from so many points of view. I copy them to MP3 files to listen to them when I have the time as they're very long. They are mostly ordinary folks, but the host has also interviewed Adyashanti, Mooji, Burt Harding, Gangaji, Tony Parsons and other well known people.
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I have had many NDE.............when my blood sugar plummets, when I got hit in the head w/a softball and while playing dodgeball.
I'm such BORE
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Notself - thanks for posting the link to Jill Bolte. That's one of my favorite TED presentations.
JoyLiesWithin - so lovely to read your posts, thanks for thoughtful comments. Have you ever read any of the work of Ken Wilber, think you might find much of it interesting.
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Thanks Sunflowers. The name is familiar but I haven't looked at his work. I'll check it out now.
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Joy
Just popped into the thread you mentioned - LOVE Flannel's post. The book she's referring to is Thomas Moore's Care of the Soul. Lovely book, based on the work of James Hillman, a Jungian psychologist. Think you'd like that too. Ken Wilber's first book, 1980's No Boundary, and so, so many more since then. Think he's also written something with Fr. Thomas Keating, one of the founding creators of Centering Prayer ( with Basil Pennington)
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Thqanks for mentioning those books, Sunflowers. I had the Thomas Moore years ago, but will revisit it now, as I'm in a better place to spend time with it. And I haven't read that Ken wilbur book, either.
Arlene, your nightgowns look devine and inviting!!
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JoyLiesWithin,
You're talking to another person who has experienced a shift in consciousness through Buddhist meditation. The shift is called jhana and is similar to the shift that Jill Bolte Taylor describes. By concentration on a meditation object, in my case a survey of my body from toes to head, one stops discursive thought. When discursive thought stops, one is aware of the non-verbal right side of the brain. The result is what I can only describe as bliss that in my case lasted several minutes. It is hard to say how long I was in jhana because one has no sense of time or place.
It isn't magic or religious but a state of mind. I can certainly understand why someone who is religious and was performing a meditative prayer would think that they were in a divine state or the presence of their god. For example the descriptions of Teresa of Avila of her religious ecstasy are very similar to a jhana state.
Teresa believed her state was due to being in the direct presence of her god. I believe my state was due to a well focused and concentrated mind. Most people who meditate regularly can are capable of reaching jhana. I have not been able to go to jhana at will but those who are experienced meditators can go into jhana whenever they meditate. Buddhist monks have meditated while having brain scans and the areas of the brain that are the "happiness" centers light up during their meditation.
http://www.anxietyandstress.com/meditationandmindfulness.html
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Re the biopsy story, my daughter and husband arranged a surprise birthday party at a local winery.
My daughter's friend, an Evangelic Christian, mentioned to my husband earlier that she would like to lead everyone in prayer for me. This was all in good faith (no pun intended), but not everyone there even knew my new diagnosis and treatment plan. I didn't intend to tell everyone. And imagine how this would have impacted the festive environment: Happy 65th birthday and hope you make it another year. (Kidding, my dx not that drastic.)
But they mean well, and I think it helps those without the cancer cope.0 -
Hi all waht a delicious last few days of posts, i can't wait till I get to them - yum!
but just for now - CHUMFRY - will do the knot I promise!
annNYC thank you. I now remember - ugh - in highschool , long before blue jeans were allowed, boys wore gey flannel pants. icky, icky and I was a slip of a thing and actually wore a girdle!!! too icky for wrds
Sunflowers - Ken Wilbur? I lead a quiet life and live out in the boondocks, and you're the very first person I've met (besides me) who reads him! doouble yum
it's totally wonderful to hear, so to speak, what you all have to say. thank you.
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Flannel - synchronicity! I haven't read the Thomas Moore since, about 1992 - time to look at it again. I find it SO interesting to go back to a book, and see how my reaction to it changes with time.
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notself...thank you for your wonderful post about jhana. I experienced it once while meditating and felt a sense of complete connectedness to each thing in the universe...I was not separate from anything else, nor were any of the other things distinct from each other. Later, when I was using my concrete thinking, I came to describe it as waves versus particles, as described by Heisenberg. I felt like a concentration unto myself of energy that became weaker as you moved further from me, then stronger and more concentrated as you moved toward another "thing" in the universe. We were all waves of energy within one pool of energy.
This was an exhilarating experience that lasted for maybe minutes, but I don't know how long. I felt at that moment that Buddhism was a perfect (for me) construct for viewing the universe. I was very grateful to achieve it.
However, shortly after that, the monks and nuns at the Buddhist temple that I was going to then said some things which sounded an awful lot like they knew the "truth" and that failure to believe this "truth" would prevent one from moving on toward nirvana. I could never go back. All done. Could not get myself past what I felt was a failure to understand the basic Buddhist ideas that Buddha (like all things) are a construct of our own making, created and existing within the confines of our own limited constructs of reality.
I wish I could get past it, because going to the temple and meditating was wonderful and I cannot seem to bring myself to the same level of meditation anywhere else. In fact, I have stopped trying.
I know that, at some point, I will revisit meditation and make room for it in my life again. I will be very glad for that day...
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CLC,
How odd that the monks took the position that one set of things was the truth when there is a Zen saying that the teachings were the finger pointing to the moon but not the moon itself. It seems as through their rigidness is missing the moon by concentrating on the finger.
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notself,
This was not a Zen temple. It is New Kadampa Tradition, which comes with a great deal of controversy and history. I never paid much attention to the controversies because I found great peace at the campus and with the monks and nuns. It was when someone visiting from a temple elsewhere came and said that you must believe in reincarnation that I felt the sting of hypocrisy and inconsistency and dogmatic religiosity.
There are Zen monasteries within an hour and a half from here, and I have considered going to them, but it is not sustainable for me given how busy I am. The NKT temple is 5 minutes from my house. I could stop there on my way home from work, meditate and come home. It was a wonderful thing for me.
In fact, I first started going to the Buddhist temple after my original breast cancer scare. I was dx with only ADH, but decided I needed to learn to meditate because I had difficulty through that scare dealing with my stress. I have always dealt with my stress through exercise. While I was laid up from my excision, I started going crazy. I found meditation was perfect. Unfortunately, by the time that I was dx with the DCIS, I couldn't bring myself to meditate anymore.
Frustrating. I feel as though I should be able to go and simply meditate...but my monkey brain and my tightly held attachments to reason and rejection of hypocrisy are preventing me. I see myself as essentially Buddhist. I see the New Kadampa Tradition as something else. I feel betrayed by the group because it was there that I found out that Buddhism was exactly how I had always understood the world...and I felt that, for the first time in my life, I might have found others who saw, defined and understood the world the way I do. And then the betrayal...like they were doing a bait and switch on me.
I cannot, in any way, listen to any indoctrination. It is not only offensive to me, but a definite waste of time.
Sorry, I am rambling. I think this is all one of the difficulties in being an atheist and an independent thinker. It would be nice to fit into some pre-existing social network and construct. But...being an independent thinker leaves one not fitting so well...
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I jus twant to add that I read Jill Bolte Taylor's book, "A Stroke of Insight" and couldnot put it down. I highly recommend it for a better understanding of how the brain works.
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Sunflowers, I've reserved the Thomas Moore and Jill Bolte Taylor books from my local library, but will read more about Wilber's theories on the net before tackling any of his books which look rather complex. I have several books that I bought waiting to be read so I won't borrow more than I can read.
Notself, your username was a pretty big clue that you either aspired to or had experienced jhana. I prefer to hear people's experiences than read any amount of theory. I did once have a deep meditaion though I can rarely meditate as my mind is all over the place. It was the night I found out the diagnosis, when I couldn't stop shaking violently. I thought I'd never get to sleep so I tried imagining healing light and repeating an uplifting phrase. It was the deepest I've been, with the shaking providing feedback whenever I started to come out of it so I was able to keep getting deeper and deeper. I've never been able to repeat that. And I was able to sleep too.
CLC, I had a similar experience when I visited a Buddhist temple with my son for a school excursion a long time ago. They had some rules on the wall including no laughter. The nuns were clearly inferior to the monks, scuttling around in the background as if they were unwelcome, if they were seen at all. Other than that the monks were warm and friendly to the visitors. I keep meaning to make a space at home where I can be left in peace to relax or try meditating. Maybe I'll try different methods till something works for me. I have some mantras that I converted to Mp3 from you tube videos that I could play. I just need to stop putting it off. I've read numerous times about those fMRI's of the buddhists brains so my logic isn't stopping me, more the fear that it would take 10 or 30 years to 'catch up' with what I've failed to do so far.
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Buddhism is in one way like any organized "religion". There are many different "denominations" and quite a few cults. I started studying Buddhism by reading translations of the oldest texts available. Those texts are maintained by the Theravada tradition. If Tibetan Buddhism is similar in its richness of ritual and ceremony to Catholicism, then Theravada is similar to Quakers. Here is one of the suttas, teachings of the Buddha, from Theravada. The Buddha was talking to a group of people called the Kalamas who asked which of the many teachers in India to follow.
"Of course you are uncertain, Kalamas. Of course you are in doubt. When there are reasons for doubt, uncertainty is born. So in this case, Kalamas, don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, 'This contemplative is our teacher.' When you know for yourselves that, 'These qualities are unskillful; these qualities are blameworthy; these qualities are criticized by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to harm & to suffering' - then you should abandon them."
Even though Buddhism is a spiritual path without a creator god, we really should take this to the Buddhist thread.
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I'm neither Buddhist nor any other religion. I like to see where some eastern practices tie in with science and psychology as per the fMRI's and meditation showing a large change in the brain. Who can argue with that? Likewise the NDE's may show a scientific reason that could prove helpful. And the enlightenment/nirvana/shift in consciousness may be attainable by everyone once scientists can show what causes it. Who wouldn't want nirvana without all the religious trappings? Imagine a world where everyone was peaceful and accepting.
I took the NDE talk to another thread in case it was too not suitable for this thread and agree the Buddhist talk is best continued on the other thread. But does anyone else here like to meditate without being in any way religious? For example, TM (transcendental meditation) which was supposed to be non religious though it was started by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. I'd love to know if I'm the only one who gives credence to these practices for their psychological benefits without wanting to take on the other beliefs and religious views.
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I meditate and am an atheist. I have taken a Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction course (highly rcpmmended for anyone with ongoing health issues!) and am a big fan of the writings of Jon Kabat Zinn and insight/mindfulness based meditation. I don't practice as regularly as I would like to. I find that I turn to meditation more in times of stress, and less when I am feeling centered. I have also started practicing qi gong, which I find meditative. EDITED to add: there is lots of scientific research into the health benefits of mindfulness meditation for all sorts of physical and psychiatric conditions. I find it fascinating, too.
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Meditation is good for lowering blood pressure as well as general stress.
One does not have to spend money on an expensive course to meditate. The simplest technique is focus on the breath. Sit up straight. Pay attention to the breath as it goes in and out the nose. When one's mind wanders, bring it gently back to the breath.
There is no need to sit in the lotus position, no need to say a mantra, no need to hold one's fingers in a specific pose, no need to say OM, no need for incense----just sit and breath. Over time, one will be able to spend more and more time focused on the breath and less time on stray thoughts. Meditation not only relaxes, it improves general concentration.
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I have meditated as notself has just described without any religious ties or mantras. I find that I do tend to do this more during trying times and don't manage to find the time when things are going well.
I also do meditation where I imagine myself in my favorite place. I have used this technique during port accesses and other needle procedures and find I can get to that place fairly quickly. My "favorite place" isn't really so much a place as a feeling. I imagine myself in my husband's arms and listening to my grandchildren playing and my daughters laughing.
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Kadia, I too find mindfulness really helpful. But I've tried many methods to help me meditate and if the breathing focus or mantras worked then I'd use them. Hopefully once I can do it then I can gradually withdraw any props.
I read a lot about Alzheimer's research since my mother has it. Recently there was a report about a study showing improvement in a group who repeated a phrase over and over for two short sessions each day, compared to a group who listened to quiet music who didn't get the benefit. I have no doubt that these old methods have actual physical and mental benefits compared to western religions where the emphasis seems to be on other areas. Also it seems that although the rituals are not necessary for enlightenment, more reach that state when they've done the work first than those who get there suddenly with no preparation.
I did the religious knowledge quiz a few pages back and only got 2 wrong, one relating to American history. It doesn't surprise me at all that atheists get such high scores as I believe we are thinkers who weigh up the facts before rejecting peer pressure to join a church just because our relatives and peer group belong.
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One form of focus is referred to as Mindfulness. It may work for you, JoyLiesWithin. One pays attention to what one is doing. If one is washing one's hands, then that is the sole focus. If one is eating then one pays full attention to that process.
There is also a walking meditation. One walks very slowly paying full attention as one lifts the foot (fire), moves the foot forward (wind), moves the foot downward (water) and sifts one's weight to that foot (earth). One can say the words or just focus on the movement of the muscles.
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