Is anyone else an atheist with BC besides me?
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Athena...Marx had it mostly right...except that when someone is high on opium, the rest of us know and accept that they aren't thinking logically...
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LOL!
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Love that obit, Wren44--and love my Unitarian Universalist congregation, where atheists are not only welcome, but seem to be the norm!
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Christopher Hitchins: 'What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof'.
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Yes, I too loved the obit...but can anyone tell me anything about what it means to be 'Unitarian'?
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A Unitarian was originally a liberal Christian who rejected the idea of the Trinity. In the 1960s, the Unitarians and Universalists (Christians who believed everyone was "saved") merged into Unitarian Universalim (or UU for short). Nowadays, UU congregations are homes to people of all faiths (and lack thereof), with a strong committment to social justice. You can learn more about the 7 Principles of UU-ism and UU history at: www.uua.org.0
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great thanks will look it up!
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I find it very interesting atheism came up at BCO.
My diagnosis and treatment didn't bring up great wishes in me for a belief in God. What it did bring up was a recurrence of my jealousy about the communities people can be part of in their churches. Don't get me wrong - I have created places in communities for myself in other ways; I'm not adrift alone in my urban sea. But I still have that jealousy.
I also appreciate what I remember of the social activism of the Quaker meeting of my young childhood. We moved and stopped going so I did not fully grow up as a Quaker. I am trying to find a way to reconcile my atheism with the good parts of Friends' Meeting. Interestingly, an elder of the meeting here mentioned his atheism at an educational session I attended a few days ago. I am more hopeful about this track. I do feel a strain being part of anything associated with organized religion - it took me until my mid-20's to recognize that Christianity had prompted acts other than the categories of the Crusades, the Inquisition, the protests against the Pride marches I've been in - but we'll see. UU is something I've never in any way explored.
Somebody mentioned a couple days ago thinking about the universe - I can't even take myself there. Too breathtakingly huge. Does anybody remember the Monty Python astronomy song? At the end the little voice, "somehow it makes me feel so insignificant." No wonder people need to make stuff up to comfort themselves.
But to harm others in the name of what you have created for your comfort is I think unconscionable.
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This is a wonderful quote by astrophysicist Neil deGrasse Tyson. It makes me smile.
"Recognize that the very molecules that make up your body, the atoms that construct the molecules, are traceable to the crucibles that were once the centers of high mass stars that exploded their chemically rich guts into the galaxy, enriching pristine gas clouds with the chemistry of life. So that we are all connected to each other biologically, to the earth chemically and to the rest of the universe atomically. That's kinda cool! That makes me smile and I actually feel quite large at the end of that. It's not that we are better than the universe, we are part of the universe. We are in the universe and the universe is in us."
- Neil deGrasse TysonAnd I like this one as well.
"I want to put on the table, not why 85% of the members of the National Academy of Sciences reject God, I want to know why 15% of the National Academy don't."
- Neil deGrasse Tyson0 -
Wren - thank you for posting that Obituary - just wonderful.
Outfield - I used to go to Quaker meeting - loved the people - loved the sense of community, and the openness of "offering to listen to the Light" ( what ever we want to call it, inner voice, highest self, bodhisatva nature, spirit) - and the real kindess and RESPECT for every one.
There is, or was, a Yearly Conference on Spirituality and Psychology ( not sure of exact name) and I found some of those interesting too. I stopped attending events after 9/11 - they, understandably, became very political...
LOVE THE BEN FRANKLIN QUOTE - LOVE, LOVE, LOVE IT!!!!
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Oh, CLC, I snorted coffee out my nose when I read this:
"Marx had it mostly right...except that when someone is high on opium, the rest of us know and accept that they aren't thinking logically..."
Thank you ladies so much! Don't know what I'd do without this thread.
--Cindy
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Woke up full of the joys of spring:
Early Spring
Harshness vanished. A sudden softness
has replaced the meadow's wintry grey.
Little rivulets of water changed
their singing accents. Tendernesses,
hesitantly, reach toward the earth
from space, and country lanes are showing
these unexpected subtle risings
that find expression in the empty trees.
Rainer Maria Rilke
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Oh, Maria, one of my FAVORITE poets. Have you read his Letters to a Young Poet ( think was the title) - about not looking for "answers" and learning to love the questions themselves - tho of curse he was much more eloquent in his phrasing...just love him, also RUMI, another favorite.
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Loved the Neil deGrasse Tyson quote, especially the first one--that more or less sums up what I tell people when they ask me whether I am a "spiritual person." The fact that I am part of the universe and the universe dwells in me is both inspiring and grounding. Why ever would I need another belief system to "explain my existence" or justify my approach to finding meaning in this life, this world, without the influence of religion?
And on a separate but related note: I would think that I would learn to expect rather than be surprised by kookytalk, or religious goobledygook. However, I find I need to lower the bar of expectations again. Yesterday I went to a presentation by a new local oncologist (who had been described to me as very proactive, patient-centered, knowledgeable, etc.), during which she started quoting Psalms. She offered this quote to remind those of us in the audience who had lost physical abilities and body parts that we were made by God to be wondrous and glorious creatures and as such we should not allow ourselves to experience a change in self esteem because of losses, limitations, disabilities, etc.--to do so would be to reject God's will for our lives. I wanted to scream! When questions were allowed, I asked about the very natural psychological process in which people grieve the loss of parts/abilities and try to develop and integrate a new self concept in the process of healing. She agreed, quickly, then moved on. I later felt that I should have shown more courage and directly challenged her use of Psalms, which seemed to be shaming. Of course, I also realize that I am in the minority with regard to my beliefs, and that others might not have appreciated that kind of challenge. Or is that a rationalization of my lack of more courageous action?
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I really detest the phrase 'gods will for our lives' and would be very put off if a doctor said it.
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It's a pretty cr*ppy god that has breast cancer as part of its plan.
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I am not sure if I'm an atheist or just agnostic - it depends on the day and how down I am, I guess, but I know many people who say they'll pray for me or that God is watching over me and I just thank them and go on my way. I don't have the time or energy for a theology debate after everything I've been through over the last 11 months. I do question what "God" or celestial being would do this to me. And I do have to state that I DO NOT consider cancer "a gift"...unless your idea of a "gift" is a puce-coloured Fentex poncho knitted by a Grandma with a bad sense of humour. Nope, it's not a gift and I sure don't want it and would gladly return it but don't have a receipt or know where to take it?!
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Brenda, if any doctor of mine ever said that to me, I would fire them and complain about it. But I am not always a quick thinker and would need time to frame a response. I wouldn't have been able to do it there and then.
I just had an odd memory. During a hospital admission I had for a neutropenic fever during chemo, I had a wonderful visit from a chaplain. I don't even know what particular brand of Christianity she represented. But I got the feeling my fear of illness and death didn't overwhelm her, which was a big relief to me after a parade of nursing students. I told her my beliefs, and she sincerely asked my permission to pray for me. I respected that she asked.
I would never have a theology debate with someone who said they would pray for me. I just wouldn't. I don't feel the need to change anybody's mind, and I do appreciate that those people are doing what they believe is best.
But I wouldn't ever do it myself. And I have no tolerance for those who want to mix church and state., or use their "faith" to harm others. I think shaming is harm.
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For those of you considering scuba diving---these guys are absolutely nuts and so is the dive organization that is taking them out. Jamaicans and Cubans leave the water when they spot tiger sharks. Actually staying in the water where there is chum and swimming with tiger sharks is insane.
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Brenda I think it is absolutely unacceptable for your oncologist, in her capacity as medical expert, to bring up god and his plan for wo/mankind! Totally out of order a) at a scientific presentation b) in her assumption that her audience all held the same views. And no, although we are all very clever and witty after the event coming up with the perfect reposte, it isn't lack of courage not to wish to upset others and spoil their experience of the occasion. I do it all the time, biting the tip of my tongue not to say something which would be considered totally irreverent if not outrightly sacrilegious... apart from which, as someone else reiterated, when people tell us that they are praying for us it is their way of showing that they care.
Sunflowers
you seem to have read everything!!!! I know very little about Rainer Maria Rilke, but love the poetry I have come across. Was totally unaware of his Letters to a Young Poet...thanks for reference, yet another book to look up...0 -
Brendatrue
I would have been SO UPSET if I was sitting in your seat. Like Outfield, I'd probably think of what I wanted to say much later - keep trying to think these people "mean well." But usually wind of feeling as if someone else's "fantasy world" has been imposed on my Spirit. Takes me a while to come back to the understanding Brendatrus expresses in the 1st part of her post.
Thanks for posting that, btw, just how I feel.
Yup, Maria_malta, I have read, do read a lot. Where I find the MOST comfort in life, well, outside of my garden, and bird watching, and sunrise watching, and sunset watching, and learning to draw and learning to paint (watercolors at the moment) - Rilke was a REAL FRIEND during my first episode of serious depression, a real friend ;-)
ETA: from those "Letters" probably the most often quoted: from Rilke
"Be patient toward all that is unsolved in your heart and try to love the questions themselves, like locked rooms and like books that are now written in a very foreign tongue. Do not now seek the answers, which cannot be given you because you would not be able to live them. And the point is, to live everything. Live the questions now. Perhaps you will then gradually, without noticing it, live along some distant day into the answer."
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Brenda, if it had been a one-on-one situation, I probably would have spoken up about it. But I wouldn't have said anything at a presentation. And I'll admit that part of that decision would be fueled by fear of a whole room of people attacking me. On the other hand, perhaps it wouldn't be very respectful to have called the speaker out in front of an entire group of people.
What I *would* do is write a letter to that speaker. I think much more clearly when I'm writing and you get to think over exactly what you want to express and edit it, etc. I think she needs to know that not everyone believes the same way she does and that at least one person was offended by her comments---especially since it smacked of shaming us for our legitimate feelings of loss.
--Cindy
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Thanks to all who responded about my experience at a local oncologist's presentation. Thankfully, she is NOT my MO, but one of the reasons I went to hear her presentation was to meet her and try to determine whether she might be an acceptable alternative in the event that my current MO gets dropped from my provider network (a possibility). I have dealt with cancer over the last 16+ years, and I have had to terminate my relationship with several MO's. The last time I chose to move on to another oncologist, I did so because of blatant misogyny and lack of competence--a really frightening combination! Thankfully, my current MO is professional, witty, articulate, caring and respectful of my expectations to be a partner in the planning of my care; he and I have had some problems but I try to be open about those and he seems to care enough to respond. By the way, Cindy, I really appreciated your comments about one-on-one confrontation vs. confrontation in a group setting and about writing a letter to express my concerns. Again, thanks to all for the support!
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Boy, you get cancer and the doctor talks about God. NOT very comforting. Means you are a goner, essentially - that is the message I would infer. Have those people no common sense?! Brenda, I am sorry you even had to be put through that.
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Brendatrue...ugh...I am so sorry you had to listen to that. It is just so inappropriate to put any "shoulds" on how breast cancer survivors manage to cope. In my book, there is no right way, no wrong way, no answer key with a passing rate. You just get up every morning and try to do the best you can...and some days, that is, as you said, to grieve. If it means sitting around in the same pajamas for three days eating soy products and drinking alcohol and not exercising, no one has the right to say that is what you should or shouldn't do. None of us knows another's deepest experience and to say you shouldn't feel something because GOD doesn't want you to is, in my opinion, cowardice. Failing to take responsibility for what she thinks you/we should do.
As for not speaking your mind right there...I have to say, I feel the same way often. I think I am a coward for not speaking up or that I am not such a sharp person that it takes me so long to think of what I want to say. My best friend tells me I am not a coward, but merely kind and sensitive. And she tells me I am a profound thinker, which takes time. She tells me to let up on myself, give myself a break. I know that when it is her, I see it as kindness and sensitivity, as not jumping to snap judgments. Then I try to cut myself that slack...:)
But...I don't always succeed...
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1Athena1, I wonder if part of the message relates to the value attached to life itself--what some call the sanctity of life--versus the value attached to quality of life. It's almost like you are being told, "Hey, you should be grateful you are still alive; don't worry about the other experiences you are having!" Of course the other experiences may include many short- and long-term effects of cancer treatment, like fatigue, pain, weakness, disability, you-fill-in-the-blank. I am grateful to be alive but I am still mindful of the extreme importance of those aspects that make up "good enough" quality of life for me. I think each of us has to come to terms with what is and is not acceptable.
CLC, your friend gives amazing feedback and advice! Isn't it amazing how compassionate we can be toward others yet often refrain from showing that compassion toward ourselves? I once thought that I might be trying to prove myself to others, then I realized I was really trying to prove myself to myself. I am my harshest judge, but, thankfully, I have learned to practive lovingkindness toward myself as well as toward others.
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Hi Brenda,
I really never could understand doctors, these all round educated, lettered persons to manifest their feelings at that way, but they did! Probably they are seeking for contact with this kind of patients and approaching them. Who knows? Not to understand!
Greetings
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Love that, Charles!
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Charles,
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