Is anyone else an atheist with BC besides me?
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Hi Sunflowers - what is the SI SE thread? duh...How's spring advancing in western Ma? we had some freak heat wave a week or so ago, but mercifully back to normal and I've got the wood insert going as I speak (tryin not to use the furnace). Frost some nights. I think on a map we'd be almost equally north...but we have the St. Lawrence river right next door to mitigate things so we're in a spot called the northern tip of the "carolinian?" forest? or somthing like that. we have black walnuts, shagbark hickory and a couple other nut trees here. And can grow azaleas and rhodendons of certin types. On the many islands, the ecology is even warmer. I'm looking at a bunch of King Alfreds, the earliest group, under a tree with no leaves at all. but the grass is green.
Have a great day
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I love the woodstock/snoopy strip. "The bad news is you have to do it every moring for the rest of your life" Indeed...
I find myselt playing gotcha with my doctors... "That's not what the folks on BCO say..." or "How would you know?" But I'm trying to get past some of the mistrust. And yes I'll work on "good enough" and really am grateful for my situation realative to what others are going through, and I don't get all "why me?" often. More "why not me?" I've been relativly healthy all my life, while others have had real challenges to overcome. This is my challenge, and at first glance it looks doable. But when the doubts creep in "what if they missed something" "my back hurts. It's mets" "I coughed. Is that a bad sign" I just can't assume the doctors would have caught it if it were a problem and I kind of panic. Then I pull myself together and move on.
My Aunt had a lump in her breast for 17 years before she finally agreed to surgery in 1971. She died in 1972 pretty much convinced the doctors had killed her. I'm not so sure about that, but I am sure hope that my cancer is as slow as hers was. We only "ignored" mine for a couple of years, so I have high hopes we are out ahead of it now.
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flannelette,
"Mindfulness" is one of my favorite books. This time of year, forget sitting meditation and concentrate on every aspect of gardening. Use that activity to eliminate discursive thought and just focus on the task and the feeling of your body moving to perform the task. Be mindful of the garden.
I think that is why so many people like golf. One cannot golf well or even competently if one's mind is not on the game. Discursive thought is what wears us out and stresses us out. It's all the stories and "what if" senarios that wear us out. Mindfullness gives us a well needed rest from our own stories for an hour or two.
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Hi Notself - I wanted to copy & paste "Discursive thought is what wears us out and stresses us out" but could only get as far as copying. I like your suggestion on gardening, and it's about to happen in a few days. Hauling downed branches first, and having a fire - my fave spring thing. I come in smelling all smokey. So - will try to remember to haul while I'm hauling, dig while digging. Yes, you are so right, gives us a rest from our own stories for an hour or2 - not that I've experienced the rest, but that book and my holiday were serendipitous, and I look forward to starting. Despite all my learning about the Buddhist and Taoist traditions, it's taken me a long time (and maybe not the right books) for the light bulb about discursive thought to go on.
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I pick and choose what is useful to me from Buddhism. Meditation/Mindfulness has been a great help to me especially when I have biopsies.
Don't be surprised if you have an "experience" when you are mindfully gardening. I once lost the ability to label what I was seeing after a couple of hours of mindfulness. It was so peaceful. Soon the labels came back and of course we do need labels to process reality.
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Flannel
I don't know if you've ever heard of Cognitive Behavior Therapy - those of us who have dealt with the Black Dog ( what Winston Churchill called his Depression) seem to be most familiar with it - and that's how I learned, that when depressed, or upset, it's very easy to SPIRAL down into a vicious circle of destructive, negative thinking, emotions, - and mindfulness is a very powerful way to get out of that spiral. Lots of different names labels for the process, back in the hippy 60's we used to read Chop Wood,Carry Water....
I think those wonderful words "GOOD ENOUGH" are now my "trigger" to give myself permission to just STOP whatever it is, and Chop Wood, Carry Water...usually it means go to my easel and paint, play with my soft pan pastels, colored pencils, or read something I LOVE - like my newest book of Wolf Kahn art....
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I have always been a cognitive behavior proponent...works for so many problems...
I especially like Albert Ellis, Rational Emotive therapy
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http://www.stressgroup.com/12IrrationalBeliefs.html
Check out this webpage about Ellis's 12 Irrational Beliefs..
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SoCalLisa,
Some of the irrational belief problems listed appear to be part and parcel with religious belief. It's an interesting list.
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The 12 Irrational Beliefs (iB's) of REBT1. The idea that it is a dire necessity for adults to be loved by significant others for almost everything they do--
Instead of their concentrating on their own self-respect, on winning approval for practical purposes, and on loving rather than on being loved.
2. The idea that certain acts are awful or wicked, and that people who perform such acts should be severely damned --
Instead of the idea that certain acts are self-defeating or antisocial, and that people who perform such acts are behaving stupidly, ignorantly, or neurotically, and would be better helped to change. People's poor behaviors do not make them rotten individuals.
3. The idea that it is horrible when things are not the way we like them to be--
Instead of the idea that it is too bad, that we would better try to change or control bad conditions so that they become more satisfactory, and, if that is not possible, we had better temporarily accept and gracefully lump their existence.
4. The idea that human misery is invariably externally caused and is forced on us by outside people and events
Instead of the idea that neurosis is largely caused by the view that we take of unfortunate conditions.
5. The idea that if something is or may be dangerous or fearsome we should be terribly upset and endlessly obsess about it--
Instead of the idea that one would better frankly face it and render it non-dangerous and, when that is not possible, accept the inevitable.
6. The idea that it is easier to avoid than to face life difficulties and self-responsibilities
Instead of the idea that the so-called easy way is usually much harder in the long run.
7. The idea that we absolutely need something other or stronger or greater than ourself on which to rely --
Instead of the idea that it is better to take the risks of thinking and acting less dependently.
8. The idea that we should be thoroughly competent, intelligent, and achieving in all possible respects --
Instead of the idea that we would better do rather than always need to do well, and accept ourself as a quite imperfect creature, who has general human limitations and specific fallibilities.
9. The idea that because something once strongly affected our life, it should indefinitely affect it --
Instead of the idea that we can learn from our past experiences but not be overly-attached to or prejudiced by them.
10. The idea that we must have certain and perfect control over things --
Instead of the idea that the world is full of improbability and chance and that we can still enjoy life despite this.
11. The idea that human happiness can be achieved by inertia and inaction --
Instead of the idea that we tend to be happiest when we are vitally absorbed in creative pursuits, or when we are devoting ourselves to people or projects outside ourselves.
12. The idea that we have virtually no control over our emotions and that we cannot help feeling disturbed about things --
Instead of the idea that we have real control over our destructive emotions if we choose to work at changing the "musturbatory" hypotheses which we often employ to create them.
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Just got irked by something I read. The article was about the sad shooting at a private religious school in Cali. 7 have now died.
A young student said she wasn't frightened because god protects her. I so want to ask people who make these kind of thoughtless statements what about the young students who died? Guess they didn't have gods protection.
Ok I needed to vent.0 -
SoCalLisa, the 12 Irrational beliefs make a really interesting and instructive list... I think age and experience do teach us many of these ideas the hard way, but it's always good to see such life-improving attitudes laid out in black and white and to feel, YES, that's precisely what I should keep reminding myself to do! One of my worst faults is that I often seem to operate as though I am indispensible, to home, work, social situations, etc, and don't leave well enough alone, and that I do NOT have perfect, or maybe any, control over things (belief no 10)! BC is another way to learn this lesson I suppose! (lovely balloons flying free btw, thanks)
Chickadee, vent away, my reaction precisely!
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SoCalLisa, Thanks for sharing the list of irrational beliefs. We probably could have an interesting conversation about what is rational, nonrational and irrational! Regardless, many of the above beliefs are "crazy-making" and could cause one to spend a great deal of precious life energy going around in circles--which for some constitutes life. I'm trying to live a life that doesn't go around in circles, but, darn, I do find myself sometimes getting derailed by "crazy-making"!
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I used to work in newspapers, which have a lot of shouting and high-pressure deadlines. I think a turning point in my life was when I realized that there would be a paper the next day even if I died in a car crash. It's rather freeing to realize that no one is indispensable. <grin>
--CindyMN
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I think the antidote to most of those irrational beliefs boil down to one overriding principle. It is what it is. Or in one word, acceptance. We're all so keen to change, improve, control anything and everything around us. This comes back to the principles of some eastern religions, that suffering is caused by desire. I don't think the philosophy of these religions has anything to do with any god, rather they are philosophies for peace of mind.
More and more I'm seeing that the way I view the world and life is coloured by my past experiences that have given me strong biases. It's clear that we all see the world in a very different way according to how our brains have been trained by past experiences. What if we could drop all those beliefs and stories? I try to challenge each negative reaction I have by asking if, for my peace of mind, it really, truly matters? Everything is just a story. My motto now is 'drop the story and accept what is'. I just have to remember that constantly to benefit from it.
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"And so it goes."
Kurt Vonnegut, Slaughterhouse Five0 -
going w-a-a-a-y back - does anyone remember that "what ever is, is just what's so, and it's also, so what." W-A-A-A-A-Y back - early 1970's....ah, youth, physically fine, but OLDER is better..
Also Pema Chodron ( need one of those thingies over the o?) who says: "Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional."
What JOY said: {{{{{{{Like, Like, Like}}}}}}}}}}}
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Thanks Sunflowers. I need to take my own advice tonight as someone has misquoted me on another thread and of course my EGO is objecting like crazy. How dare they say that about me? I'm reminding EGO that it's just another story.
Sorry Charles but I'm unfamiliar with that book and read very little fiction. I had a quick look on Wikipedia and it looks interesting, but I'm too soft to read violent books.
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Joy, if it's the thread I think it might be, it isn't ego, as much as it is people using OTHER PEOPLE'S words to promote their own agenda...very sad...
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saw this today, spring has sprung
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Sunflowers, ultimately it doesn't matter what anyone else says or what their motives are. What other people think of me is none of my business. If I want to control them or allow their opinion of me to get upset then I'm indulging in one of those irrational beliefs listed above. Others have a right to their opinion and also to be incorrect, irrational or illogical just like we all are so often. By the same token, if I sometimes respond in kind then that would also just be a human response, but I try not to so I can preserve my sanity and also so I don't hurt people, though that can be impossible since they have their own filters that I can't control.
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Charles, I love Vonnegut. Haven't read him in quite a while. He always brought an odd perspective to the table. <grin> Are you also a Dune fan? I used the Litany against fear (Fear is the Mind-Killer) frequently during treatment to keep calm during chaos.
--CindyMN
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Seems like some of you will appreciat this.
I finally got brave enough to tackle the final frontier of what of my life I can do with my lymphedema last weekend. Dug for an hour out in the yard, basically trying to flatten out a pile of mess I left a few years ago so we can put another raised bed in. No lymphedema flare. Got sore, which felt good. Another few weekends, and we will have a good place for more cheery green heads to poke up from the dirt. So good for the kids to watch things grow, love it that my kids have all their lives been able to wander out the back door, pick a tomato, and eat it, and here we are in the middle of a city.
I appreciate these miracles of plants and seeds I think even more than I would if I thought they had been purposely created, like a washing machine (I greatly appreciate my new washing machine, which is the best I've ever used, but can in no way compare to the beauty of a growing plant).
Nice to feel I am back in the cycle of things.
Can't remember if I posted this, but there seems to be no problem at all with being a Quaker and an atheist in the meeting I'm attending. One of the elders of the meeting I am attending has mentioned several times that he is an atheist. I suppose I could be attempting to live by the principles of integrity, equality, simplicity, peace and community without attending a meeting, but it's nice to gather with people.
Loved Vonnegut 30-35 years ago. I still have so many (many naughty) images from those books in my head. So much sticks. Such a skill to be able to write in such an irreverent way with such lasting insight.
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BASEBALL OPENING DAYS
HERE IS THE HALL OF FAME IN COOPERSTOWN
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Outfield
JOY JOY JOY!!!!! What a good feeling to dig in the dirt.
I have a sign on a bookcase: GARDEN: there's magic in the dirt.
ALSO: I AM, THEREFORE, I DIG.
SoCalLisa
what a gorgeous rose..yes, Spring is finally arriving, cold ( in the 30's at night) and will have frost until the beg. of June - but everything in bud. Perennials poking their little noses above ground..just tore off a clump of chives to put in a bean soup I'm making....SPRING
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Hi all,
It's a lovely day out today - sunny, but not too hot. Spring has definitley sprung here, my roses are going nuts, I should take some pics and post them like SoCalLisa does.Take care everyone!
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Joy, I don't think Vonegut is a particularly "violent" writer, but there are violent events that underscore the weirdness of human existence.
Failing that, I could quote Monty Python's Life of Brian:When You're chewing on life's gristle. Don't grumble give a whistle...
chumfry, I have to admit it's been a long, long time since I read the whole Dune series. That said, I do remember the Litany against fear:
Life's a piece of shit when you think of itAlways look on the bright side of life!
I must not fear
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.0 -
Charles_Pelkey and Chumfry...I love Dune. I have not thought about the Litany against fear in a very long time... I think that when I am afraid, I do not want to say or think the word "fear." For me, just saying anything about fear reminds me of fear. I think that I need to focus on the sunshine and peace. But, I think the litany against fear is quite accurate...I like the image of turning to see where fear went...and the trail of emptiness behind it, where you are left standing...still.
Thanks for reminding me of that awesome series...:)
Claire
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If a book or film has a name like slaughterhouse, contains fights, torture, murders or any war, then I may find it repulsive. It probably goes back to being made to read or watch scary scenes as a child. Or maybe it was hearing about my uncles who were either killed, injured or kept in Japanese POW camps during WW2. I can see that the outline of the Vonegut book looks intriguing and may stretch the mind to new possibilities, so maybe I could manage it if I could skip any scary parts. I can get away with watching films if they are on DVD so I can fast forward through some scenes. If his books have aroused so much interest here they are probably worth reading.
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Joy,
The title of Vonnegut's book comes from the name of the place he and other WWII prisoners of war were kept in Dresden, an abandoned meat processing plant (Schlachthof Fünf, in German) . Yes, the book takes place during war and yes, there is violence ... especially on a mass scale, since Dresden was in fact firebombed by the Allies. Vonnegut was actually there and did spend his time as a prisoner at the Slaughterhouse. After that, it is truly a work of fiction.
I can generally read books with a frightening theme and Vonnegut's treatment of it is not particularly graphic. The book is actually quite surreal and the main character actually finds himself traveling in time and between different realities. Yeah, I know it sounds weird, but it ranks as one of the best works of fiction of the 20th Century.
That said, it may not be the best choice for a read for you. I like his outlook on life and existence in general. It may be troublesome for a reader who tends to shy away from topics of violence. I would say that there are plenty of other good and thoughtful reads out there, including several by Vonnegut.0
