Is anyone else an atheist with BC besides me?
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Well, if there was a god that knew all in the universe, you think s/he would have appreciated a good long post with deep perceptive thinking... I know...s/he stole it... that explains everything...;)
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Beesie, you wrote: I think religion is scary because it depends on blind faith rather than independent, analytical thought.
I think some religions are scary because they rely on FEAR as the great motivator. Although perhaps that is where blind faith comes in -- in much the same way as children are convinced about the boogeyman/monster under the bed, no matter how many times their parents tell them there IS no boogeyman. Most children think neither analytically nor rationally when motivated by fear. And that goes for many adults as well
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Yay.. I am so happy to have found a forum like this. As an atheist I get tired of people telling me have faith and God will get you through this battle..or myall time favorite God won't give you more than you can handle.
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hope4acure10,
I agree. One of the most insensitive and stupid comments ever spoken has to be "God won't give you more than you can handle." What ever does it mean?
The mental hospitals are filled with people who can no longer cope. Fine men and women who have served in Iraq and Afghanistan have committed suicide because they have been given more than they can handle. A person who would utter such a comment is truly thoughtless.
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Notself - I also think that "expression" is an extension of blaming the victim - a version of, "see, if you had really BELIEVED, this wouldn't have happened to you." Grrrrrrrrrr.....as if we "believed" some of the fantasies, we would have CONTROL over all circumstances....more grrrrrr's
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OK, I've got to add a joke, because whenever I hear about "blind faith" it reminds me...
A deeply religious man was warned that a flood was coming and he needed to evacuate. He said "I'm not worried, God will save me."
The water came and soon the roads were submerged. A man came by in a boat and said, "get in, I'll get you to safety" The man said, I'm not worried, God will save me."
Meanwhile the water was getting deeper. Another boat came to get him - again he refused and said "God will save me."
When the water rose yet higher, he was siiting on the roof of his house and a helicopter came - he waved it off, saying "God will save me."
After he drowned, when he was going into heaven he asked God, "Why didn't you save me?" God replied," I sent a warning, two boats and a helicopter - what more did you expect?"
So, I don't know if there is a God or not. I tend to believe that there is, but if there is, I'm definitely of the mind that "God helps those who help themselves." I have a hard time with the idea that God only likes the people who look or act a certain way and fit into a specific mold.
If there is a god, he/she definitely has a sense of humor, and I would doubt that she/he would want people to be all lock-jawed about what they can and cannot do, think, feel or say. I detest almost every religion I've ever had contact with due to the control they want to exercise. I don't call myself an atheist, though I have doubted the existence of god. I don't call myself much of anything, other than happy to have each day of life.
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"I sent a warning..."
I've always liked that, and so true.
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If there is a God, he/she may have a sense of humor and may appreciate free thinkers. But if there is a God, he/she also seems to be spiteful and uncaring and unbelievably cruel. If there is a God who supposedly is controlling things, I simply can't come to terms with the evil and unfairness that is in the world.
If there is a God, why does he/she allow so many young women with young children to die of breast cancer? There are those on this site who claim that they survived BC because of their belief in God. They prayed and lived a 'worthy' life and God answered their prayers and allowed them to survive. But what about all those who haven't survived? Did these women not pray hard enough? Were they not deemed to be worthy of saving? When you look at the lives of some of these women, no one can seriously believe that. So what's the explanation then, if there is a God who is controlling or influencing the path of our lives?
If there is a God, how does he/she allow an 8-year-old girl to be brutally raped and then put into a garbage bag and beaten with a hammer to her head and kicks to her body until she finally died? Those are the highlights of a murder case currently before the courts here in Ontario. I understand that some who believe in God will say that God allows humans (and all creatures) to exercise free will; this might explain the horrific actions of the two people involved in this murder. They exercised free will and they will pay for their actions in the afterlife (or something like that). But how does this explain what happened to this little girl? Being tortured and murdered was not an act of free will on her part.
If there is a God and he/she chooses to allow these things to happen, then this a God who is cruel and who I want no part of. If there is a God and he/she is powerless to stop these things from happening, then what role does this God play in our lives? What's the point in believing in and praying to a God who is powerless?
On the other hand, if there is no God, then life, and death, just happens. Our bodies fail us, sometimes the medicines don't work and some of us die before our time. Humans do what we do, with no guidance and with no deity watching over us, controlling or influencing our actions. Some humans are mostly good; other humans are mostly evil. People do wonderful things for other people and people do terrible things to other people. It's all up to us. There is no one to pray to who can change what will happen or what someone will do. Things don't happen to us because some higher being decides that this should happen to us and not to the person standing next to us. To me, that all makes sense.It explains the unfairness of life and death, and the good and evil in the world.
I've been skeptical about whether or not there's a God ever since I was a kid. Being raised in a Jewish (non-practicing) home, even as a very young child I remember at Christmas thinking "People believe that Jesus is the son of God? Really? Who made that up?" Then when I heard about how the Romans and Greeks prayed to a whole slew of Gods (how silly of them!), one of my first thoughts was "How do we know that they were wrong and we are right in believing that there is just one God? Maybe we are wrong." As I've experienced more and more of life, and as I've seen the cruelty and unfairness in the world, I simply can't fathom that there is a God who is allowing all this to happen and even worse, who is choosing who gets the breaks in life and who suffers. Why does an older woman who has lived a long full life get to survive BC but a young woman with little children dies? Why does God choose one child to be born in the Sudan and at the very same second, choose another child to be born to a wealthy family in the U.S.? Logically, it makes no sense. So there can't be a God. Or if there is one, it's certainly not a God that I have any interest in praying to or believing in.
As for my problem with the whole blind faith thing, that's for another post at another time.
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Epicurus, the Greek philosopher, had the same problem with belief in a god.
"Is god willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.Is he both able and willing?
Then whence comes evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?" --- Epicurus 300 BCE
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Beesie and notself, that is the essential basis for my rejection of religion. I have seen too many innocents suffer. It makes no sense to believe that there is a loving being over-seeing us.
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I just sick of people saying that they are praying for me and expecting a response (generally a thankyou) even though they know I don't believe in any of that.... oh the bullshit we have to put up with from others!
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Even though I was raised in a "fundamentalist" type religion (which I've long since left), I've don't think I've ever been of the opinion that there is an all powerful, all knowing, and merciful god over-seeing us. The people in the church who were supposed the most godlike just seemed mean and bossy.
I've been more of the opinion that if there is a god, then he/she/it made stuff and then it take on it's own path. I can probably be convinced of either presence or absence of god, but no one could ever convince me that God tends to every little whine and whisper.
As for people saying they are praying for me, I think they feel helpless and the act of prayer makes them feel more powerful. Since I don't ever begrudge people a little power in our more often than not helpless lives, I have no problem saying thank-you and going along my merry way. It doesn't hurt me, and in some way it seems to help them. That's OK with me.
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There is no need for a creator being since it is possible to have something arise from nothing. Cosmology is so interesting and perhaps it is quantum physics as well as Darwinian biology that makes the religious so anti-science.
From NPR interview of Lawrence Krauss.
http://www.npr.org/2012/01/13/145175263/lawrence-krauss-on-a-universe-from-nothing
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notself, I take many of my cues from physics. What amazes me every time is how religious some of our great scientists were. God even got in the way of reason for Einstein. Yes, he developed relativity, but he was unable to go further. He came up with the notion of a "cosmological constant" to try to explain everything under one theory - and was later proved wrong. I just finished reading a book about the history of Zero - it's facinating how brilliant minds can be tripped up when God gets into their picture.
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1Athena1,
I am not certain that Einstein actually believed in a god. There are quotes from him that are on all sides of the question. Sometimes he sounds like a Pantheist, sometimes an atheist, sometimes an agnostic. I think he was trying not to have his science overshadowed by his belief or disbelief.
http://www.spaceandmotion.com/albert-einstein-god-religion-theology.htm
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I always read that he was a staunch believer.
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Where did you read that? As I said, his quotes are ambiguous at best.
Here is an interesting article about the existence of the universe without a creator god. Perhaps those with more understanding of mathematics than I do will find it interesting.
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No doubt it would suit those who want religion in everything to frame Einstein's musings as being a "believer". They need it to seem that even the brightest is sucked in so people won't feel so foolish when they glom onto the fairy tales.
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These are the goals of the Discovery Institute as described in its own document called the Wedge Strategy. I had to change the formatting to fit this space. http://www.antievolution.org/features/wedge.html
GOALSGoverning Goals: To defeat scientific materialism and its destructive moral,
cultural and political legacies. To replace materialistic explanations with the
theistic understanding that nature and human beings are created by God.Five Year Goals: To see intelligent design theory as an accepted alternative in the
sciences and scientific research being done from the perspective of design
theory. To see the beginning of the
influence of design theory in spheres other than natural science. To see major
new debates in education, life issues, legal and personal responsibility pushed
to the front of the national agenda.Twenty Year Goals: To see intelligent design theory as the dominant perspective in
science. To see design theory application in specific fields, including
molecular biology, biochemistry, paleontology, physics and cosmology in the
natural sciences, psychology, ethics, politics, theology and philosophy in the
humanities; to see its influence in the fine arts. To see design theory
permeate our religious, cultural, moral and political life.It was accidently provided during the document production phase of the Intellegent Design law suit, Kitzmiller v Dover. http://www.sciencemag.org/content/311/5757/34.citation
There definitely is an organized attack on science. To fully understand the issue, I suggest reading the Court's opinion in its entirety. The Judge in the case was not a liberal "activist judge" but a George W Bush appointee. The attack continues to this day.
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notself, thanks for the excellent links. Lots to read, so I'll have to read a little at a time, but from what I just read there are several good reads. I read the NPR transcript and I'm quite interested in Krauss's book. I waded through one of the quantum physics pieces but will have to return to that again and the other one. I'm well into the Einstein quotes link and that is wonderful.
Edited to add: The Discovery Institute scares the heck out of me and I hate to say that I see them making progress in their goals.
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River_Rat,
Fundamentalists will not stop pushing their religious agenda because they want to go back to a golden age that never existed. It's all part of their fantasy that they desperately want to be real. It's both frightening and sad.
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Enough about religion.
I just picked the seasons first strawberries. None made it into the house because I have a rule that the person who weeds the garden gets its first fruits.
I also picked the first basil of the season. I wish my tomatoes were ripe so I could make a tomato-basil salad. Sigh!!0 -
notself, you are lucky. We are having strawberries for dessert tonight, but from the fruit market, flown in from California. There aren't any in the garden just yet.
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They do grow strawberries here in CA but I don't think they are as sweet as those
on the east coast..
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Lisa, they may not be quite as sweet but after a long winter without them they still tasted pretty darned good. DH came home with the strawberries, blackberries and blueberries so I was thrilled.
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some of our independent grocery stores in the area had scads and scads of locally grown strawberries...
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Berries are our favorites
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Lisa, so far I haven't found a fruit I don't like, but berries are also my favorites.
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we have a blueberry farm the next road over from where I live, and I can't WAIT til July, I pick buckets, and just love them.
It is SO cold now, in the 40's - and frost at night - haven't even put in my lettuce yet. Did plant sugar snap peas, my favorite, and after last frost ( June 1) will put in sun gold tomatoes. That's my summer "menu" - easy to remember. And as close as I ever expect to get to heaven...
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Sunflowers, do you ever just freeze some of your blueberries on cookie sheets then put them in a freezer container and pull them out and eat them directly from the freezer? The frozen berries are so good on a hot day.
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